Load work-up for sig sauer P210

[Big-bore-bob]

Hi all, I loaded a ladder test with the intent of making a pet accuracy load for the p210. Ill be heading out to the range Friday to test the loads in my p210 and p226. The loads are a hornady 115 fmj rn, over 5.8, 6.0, 6.2, 6.4gr power pistol, remington 5 1/2 primer, blazer once fired cases, crimp .375, coal 1.119-1.122. Due to rem 5 1/2 being hotter than a standard primer I'm staying away from max loads for the time being. What do you all think of this ladder?

 

[tightgroup tiger]

6.1 gr of Power Pistol should be the minimum load but PP downloads well so 5.8 should work fine if it will operate the slide. If your gun is new it may need some breaking in before shooting that light of a load in it.

I think your 6.4 stopping point is probably good to stay away from the obnoxious white flash Power Pistol is known for.

I shoot it alot in my .357Magnums and also download it below Alliant's customary minimum of -10%.
I think your right in the sweet spot between 6.2-6.4gr, I did.

 

[reddog81]

Using the P210 is like cheating. My shoots just about anything well and has preformed flawlessly with light loads and heavy loads.

 

[Big-bore-bob]

So I may have made a mistake... I shot those loads today and my results are not at all what I expected. 5.8gr, ES 21, SD 8, avg 1243. 6.0gr, ES 56, SD 15, avg 1236. 6.2gr, ES 35, SD 10, avg 1280. 6.4gr, ES 37, SD 14, avg 1296. The loads shot well, very accurate in the p210, not so much in the p226 ( p226 grouping to the left 4 inches at 15 yds). Primers were perfect looking. No feeding or extraction issues, guns threw brass about 6ft. I calibrated my scale and verified accuracy with check weights, threw 20 charges after adjusting powder measure to settle powder, and rechecked and confirmed correct charge weight. Is there something I'm missing here? So maybe the remington 5 1/2 primers are way hotter than normal primers and this is causing high velocity? How dangerous is 1300-1330 in a 9mm with 115gr fmj? I didn't think a 6.4gr would do that but what do I know.

 

[PO2Hammer]

I’ve been working on accuracy loads for my 9mm carbine.
Rem 5-1/2s don’t seem to make the most accurate loads, but I have to do more testing.

So far my best accuracy comes with XTP/HAP bullets, Federal primers and fast powder, either Bullseye or W231.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I don't think you made any mistakes, from what you have posted. I never noticed my 6.3 gr 124gr plated TC loads being that hot.
The only thing i can see is Alliants recipes for Power Pistol are with plated bullets. Gold dots and some Cprn bullet of some unknown mfg.
Your shooting FMJs.
You also may have a fast barrel on your P210.
Did the Sig give you the same speeds?

 

[GooseGestapo]

If you really want to see what your P210 will do, get some high quality jacketed hollow points.
Best are Sierra, Nosler, Speer, Hornady, RMR, Delta Precision, and Zero.
Which is actually best will be determined by your gun.
Powder and charge is of a lesser factor. I’ve tried many, but keep going back to HP38/231 because of availability and economy.

 

[Big-bore-bob]

Did the Sig give you the same speeds?

The sig p226 clocked in 30fps average slower. I just wasn't expecting the rounds to be that hot based on hornadys data. The recoil wasn't terrible.

Best are Sierra, Nosler, Speer, Hornady, RMR, Delta Precision, and Zero.

I'm putting in an order soon for some RMR match winners, I'll try 115, 124, and 147gr. I'll probably try some other brands and styles as well. RMR's prices are hard to beat though.

 

[Big-bore-bob]

Well I tested some mixed brass 9mm loads at 6.0gr power pistol. I was expecting lower velocity again but I got several strings around 1250, and when I loaded up a few more mags I got some 1350-1400 velocities out of both the p226 and p210. The recoil felt like a 124gr +p. I didn't pay attention to which headstamp the high velocity rounds were but I should have. Either my chrono is messed up, which would be strange cause I chrono'd my .45 acp and .357 and .44 today and the readings were exactly what they were when I loaded those rounds. Maybe I should reduce my charge weight even further? (Especially with mixed brass). Could variations in neck tension cause a 100-150 fps spread? I'm not sure what's going on here, and I don't want to beat the crap out of my sigs.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Not neck tension!
Case capacity!
Be really careful about off brand U.S. stuff, and ANY European or Asian brand brass.
I’ve seen Geco and Hirtenberg brass that was much smaller in case capacity.
There is also some hybrid case’s floating around with stainless steel case heads and brass bodies. They too have MUCH reduced case capacity’s.
I’d closely inspect that quantity of brass and throw out any suspicious cases. (Flattened smeared head stamps.)
Good thing you weren’t shooting a Glock!
Those loads with high transient velocities likely topped 60,000psi!
Separate cases into lots with identical case head stamps if you’re looking for accuracy.
Mixed headstamps with bulk FMJ service bullets isn’t the path…

 

[Big-bore-bob]

Good thing you weren’t shooting a Glock!
Those loads with high transient velocities likely topped 60,000psi!
Separate cases into lots with identical case head stamps if you’re looking for accuracy.
Mixed headstamps with bulk FMJ service bullets isn’t the path…

Thanks for the tip!!!!! I knew I should have done this but I thought a reduced load would give me a safety buffer. How wrong I was. Holy smokes... I will not make that mistake again. I'll throw out any headstamp brass I don't recognize as quality American brass ( I have federal, remington, blazer, sig in the lot) I also have fiocchi, jag, some magtech aguila and a unknown 9×19 headstamp STR. I'll throw out all but american headstamp brass. Interesting that I didn't have any flattened primers. I didn't however check for bulges in the cases. I belive both sigs have fully supported chambers and I have less than 600 rounds through the 210 and about 2500 rounds through the 226 so the recoil springs are good to go. Frick that was a close call. 9mm is a different animal from 45 acp. Thanks for the heads up goosegestapo. any more tips? I'm going to research and rethink my approach to 9mm loading.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I'm starting to wonder about your Chrono. What kind of chrono are you using?

 

[Big-bore-bob]

What kind of chrono are you using?

I'm using a relatively cheap caldwell chrono, it came in a kit with cheapo tripod for $180.

 

[LiveLife]

p210 and p226 ... hornady 115 fmj rn, over 5.8, 6.0, 6.2, 6.4gr power pistol, remington 5 1/2 primer, blazer once fired cases, crimp .375, coal 1.119-1.122.

5.8gr, ES 21, SD 8, avg 1243. 6.0gr, ES 56, SD 15, avg 1236. 6.2gr, ES 35, SD 10, avg 1280. 6.4gr, ES 37, SD 14, avg 1296

Something doesn't sound right.

To start, I would ask if the scale was verified with check weights to determine whether powder charges are accurate. Next, are you placing your chrono 10-15 feet away from the muzzle as stated by the manual so muzzle blast is not confusing the sensors? - https://btibrands.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/chronograph-and-kit-master-instructions.pdf

BTW, here's Speer load data for TMJ RN (Which is thick plated bullet that could be driven to jacketed velocities) - https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/9mm_Luger__115_rev1.pdf

• 9mm 115 gr Speer TMJ Power Pistol COL 1.135" Start 6.2 gr (1122 fps) - Max 6.7 gr (1212 fps)

crimp .375

For .355" diameter bullet, I prefer to use .377" taper crimp (.355" + .011" + .011" = .377") to not squish the bullet smaller, which could reduce neck tension.

Have you checked for bullet setback? If rounds are experiencing bullet setback during feeding, could explain higher velocities for powder charges/OAL used.

I check bullet setback by feeding dummy rounds (No powder, No primer) from the magazine and releasing the slide without riding it.

As indicated by bullet setback/pressure increase chart at the bottom of post in the link, bullet seated deeper by several thousandths could increase chamber pressures by several thousand PSI for small internal case volume 9mm - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-11#post-12503881

 

[Big-bore-bob]

To start, I would ask if the scale was verified with check weights to determine whether powder charges are accurate. Next, are you placing your chrono 10-15 feet away from the muzzle as stated by the manual so muzzle blast is not confusing the sensors? -

Yes I verified accuracy with rcbs check weights. I check with 2gr, then 5gr, 10gr, and 20gr, consecutively to make sure the scale reads accurately throughout a wide range of weights. I check scale accuracy randomly throughout the loading session. I did notice however the 6.0gr charge fills the case 3/4 of the way full, is this normal? I had the chrono at approx 6ft from muzzle. I checked for bullet setback potential by pushing some loaded rounds tip first against my bench with quite a bit of force, although i didnt test all the rounds, they did not budge. Could chrono distance be that much of an issue? Would a low battery in the chrono cause this sort of issue? Ill make up a few more dummy rounds to check for setback using your method. I noticed the blazer cases seated bullets with very little resistance compared to several other headstamps. I will adjust my crimp die so its not crimping as much for the next set of test rounds. Thanks for the detailed write up livelife, much appreciated.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Could chrono distance be that much of an issue? Would a low battery in the chrono cause this sort of issue?

Yes,
Even using it in direct sunlight will affect the way the chrono works. Make sure the sky screens are blocking all the direct sunlight they can. Check your loads on a cloudy day to get the best results.
Like Live Life said, it should be 15 ft away from the muzzle so the muzzle blast isn't causing a false readings. Your velocity numbers seem too high for the powder charges your quoting even if you do have a fast barrel.
So first and foremost, make sure you're not getting setback.
6' is pretty close for a Chrono.
If it were me, I would try my ladder again on a cloudy day with my chrono at the correct distance from my barrel and see if I get the same numbers I'm getting now.

Something doesn't sound right.

I agree.
When it comes to 9mm, a lot of reloaders, load and shoot mixed brass and have no problems with it at all. I used too, but I sort it all now trying to wring out the last bit of accuracy out of them.

 

[Big-bore-bob]

Thanks for the replies, I just loaded some dummy rounds with those same bullets. One with remington brass, blazer, and g.f.l. which I believe is fiocchi, cycled them through the p226 and I had some setback with the blazer brass, none with the other two headstamps. Setback went from 1.120 to 1.1135. This is still longer than the recommended coal of 1.10 per hornady 11th, albeit not at all a good thing.

Even using it in direct sunlight will affect the way the chrono works. Make sure the sky screens are blocking all the direct sunlight they can. Check your loads on a cloudy day to get the best results.

My chrono was in direct sunlight, and apparently too close. ( thanks for the heads up on that). I'll also go through all my 9mm brass and sort by headstamp. Is it possible to get consistent velocities that aren't accurate because of sunlight and distance from chrono?.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Yes, If all conditions stay the same then errors can stay repeatable until you get on the gray fringe of the boundaries. Then the error can get erratic.

It suppose it could be you have a Chrono that just reads fast, also. You would have to send some of your rounds over someone else's Chrono to verify yours is correct. Just repeat everything else, same gun, same weather conditions, so on.

Your readings just seem fast to me.

Just don't change to much at one time or you'll never know what the problem really was. If there is one.
My first plan of attack would be to try the Chrono again at the 15' mark with the same ammo and see what happens. If the readings are lower then you now know it was your setup.

If they aren't different than yours, then verify your load over someone else Chrono to see if it reads the same as yours.
I don't think mixed brass is going to be the culprit, It will add some variation to the velocities but your loads consistency looks normal, just too high velocity.
Make sure you pick out the ones with the internal ledge, they will raise pressure a lot.

 

[lordpaxman]

My chrono was in direct sunlight, and apparently too close. ( thanks for the heads up on that). I'll also go through all my 9mm brass and sort by headstamp. Is it possible to get consistent velocities that aren't accurate because of sunlight and distance from chrono?.

When I do load workups, I do sort by headstamp and do the development with just one, but that’s from mixed range brass and only guarantees it’s one HS. Once satisfied with a combination, I’ll chrono a sampling from a production run just to make sure the various HSs aren’t an issue, and I’ve never found one yet.
For 9/40/45, have not found an issue with different HS regarding case volume and disparate velocities. Pretty sure it’s not a problem for you.
The setback of 6.5thou is a bit much, especially if you chamber twice or more. This is related to the sizing step and the fact you’re running a 115gr bullet which isn’t very long. You may want to check your sizing die and insure it’s sizing as much as possible.

 

[Big-bore-bob]

So I loaded up 16 rounds each at 6.0, 6.2, 6.4gr power pistol, I used federal brass this time, coal 1.1230-1.1250, crimp at .377. 6.0gr SD 16, ES 59, avg 1243. 6.2gr SD 16, ES 67, avg 1274. 6.4 SD 12, ES 39, avg 1294. It was cloudy today, 55 degrees, 4400ft elevation. I also changed the battery in my chrono. These numbers seem in line with my first ladder test. I'm a bit at a loss as to why this is happening. I wonder if I should just reduce the charge to around 5.6 and see how they do. The casings ejected about 5-6 feet from the bench. No primer flattening, cratering, or other weirdness.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Wow.
I would definitely try the 5.6 and 5.8gr loads to see if you have trouble with the slide not cycling.

4400' of altitude, I can't think that would make that much difference.

Or does it?
https://www.bing.com/search?pglt=41...dIBCTE1OTY3ajBqMagCALACAA&FORM=ANNTA1&PC=U531

Let us know what happens with your lighter loads. If they cycle without jamming problems.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I just read about as many articles that say that Drag and drop is all that is affected at altitude and muzzle velocity should be about the same.
So I'm staying away from the altitude thing since there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer to how altitude affects muzzle velocity of a pistol or rifle round. Some say it does and some say it doesn't.
Most are talking about rifle rounds that travel a long distance which makes this worthless to our conversation. We are talking 15'.

Let us know about whether you have cycling problems with the lower loads.
thanks.

 

[LiveLife]

So I loaded up 16 rounds each at 6.0, 6.2, 6.4gr power pistol, I used federal brass this time, coal 1.1230-1.1250, crimp at .377. 6.0gr SD 16, ES 59, avg 1243. 6.2gr SD 16, ES 67, avg 1274. 6.4 SD 12, ES 39, avg 1294. It was cloudy today, 55 degrees, 4400ft elevation. I also changed the battery in my chrono. These numbers seem in line with my first ladder test. I'm a bit at a loss as to why this is happening.

Perplexing indeed.

I wonder if I should just reduce the charge to around 5.6 and see how they do. The casings ejected about 5-6 feet from the bench. No primer flattening, cratering, or other weirdness.

Well, then you can do "powder work down" that bullseye match shooters do.

I do "powder work down" when start charge produces reliable spent case extraction/ejection with accuracy. I incrementally reduce powder charge by .2-.3 gr until slide stops cycling reliably and/or loss of accuracy to identify light target loads.

Setback went from 1.120 to 1.1135

Do note that 9mm bullet seating depth reduced by several thousandths could increase chamber pressure by several thousand PSI - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-11#post-12503881

So if you want to reduce muzzle velocity variance, use headstamp brass that won't produce bullet setback.

 

[Big-bore-bob]

So if you want to reduce muzzle velocity variance, use headstamp brass that won't produce bullet setback

This is why I chose to use the fed brass this time. I guess my question is: am I likely exceeding safe saami pressures with these loads, based on hornadys data? And will my loads in the 1250fps range beat up my 9mm's? (That 210 was more than I should've spent, i want to care for it properly) Ill definitely try downloading the power pistol to see what happens with accuracy and cycling. Once I get some better bullets in a few different weights I'll rework the load up. I'll report back with my results from the work down, might be a few days.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I wish I could send you some of my Power Pistol for you to test to see if you get the same readings with it. The powder is the one thing I haven't mentioned yet. Wonder if you got a hot batch?
Hard to believe it would be that hot, but something is causing this.

Could be a combination of things, all contributing a little to the problem. A perfect storm of things, so to speak. A faster barrel, a faster powder, higher altitude, all contributing at the same time. I don't like that scenario because we never find out what is causing it so it can be eliminated.

Being this problem is showing up with two different guns I think we can eliminate the fast barrel part and altitude doesn't play much of a part here.

That leaves a mechanical problem of bullet setback. You changed head stamps so that should have changed your velocity somewhat, if that was a player.

So instead of finding a root cause, we have to do a work around instead, but sometimes that's what we have to do when the readings are indicating something is amiss and we can't isolate it.
I'm suspecting your powder now but we can only guess as to it being the problem. But if we have eliminated all other possibilities, what is left is the probability.

I suppose your chrono may be out of calibration, you would have to shoot these loads over another chrono to compare, as I said in post 18. Then you could eliminate that.

I do "powder work down" when start charge produces reliable spent case extraction/ejection with accuracy. I incrementally reduce powder charge by .2-.3 gr until slide stops cycling reliably and/or loss of accuracy to identify light target loads.

That is good advise, I've done that before also with my Q5 and BE-86. I don't like their maximum load of 5.9gr with 124 gr JHPs so I consider 5.4 gr my maximum with it in the Q5. A little caution goes a longways when things don't seem right. Take it down till it won't cycle, then you know your minimum.

(That 210 was more than I should've spent, i want to care for it properly)

Definitely, I feel the same way about my Q5 Steel frame pro Walther. I'm not allowed to run +P loads out of it according to Walther. They say standard loads only.