Loaded my first BP Cartridges

[jgh4445]

I just finished loading 10, 405 gr 45-70 for my Lyman Model of 1878. I loaded 5 with 70 gr of Goex and a .030 Walker wad and five with 65 gr of Swiss, also with the .030 wad. 70 gr of Goex filled the case ( new Starline) and since I don't have a drop tube yet, I tapped and vibrated the case until the powder settled. Then I used a compression die to finish getting the powder to the correct depth to seat the bullet. With the Swiss, the compression die was not needed as I could tap the case and settle the powder enough that seating the bullet over the wad gave about an 8th of an inch compression. This is gonna be a deer hunting load for shots in the 50 to 200 yd range with 200 being a rarity. Mostly the shots will be 75 to 100. Its going to be fun sighting this one in. I've never shot a BP cartridge before. As soon as my Lee Shaver sight gets here, the fun will begin.

 

[Pete D.]

Nice

Nice. Let us know how they shoot.
I have never been able to get 70 grs of FFg into a 45-70 case....and I have a drop tube. Go figure.
Pete

 

[Don McDowell]

Don't worry about playing with the charged cases and your wifes favorite toy.
Simply hold the scale pan/powder measure a few inches above the funnel on the case and pour slowly, then set your wad on the powder and into the compression die it goes.
You'll find that with a slow pour thru the funnel you can easily get up to 75 grs of goex into most cases. Remingtons are just a touch shorter and smaller internal capacity so 75 grs won't fit as well, but it can be done. That's the charge weight I use with the 1.1 inch patched bullets.

 

[Foto Joe]

405gr of boolit and 70gr of powder, YIKES that's gonna make one h#$@ of a boom!!! I think that you're gonna find that old original Black Powder calibers like 45-70 are much more fun with the correct powder. That new smokeless stuff just doesn't do it in some calibers for a lot of us.

 

[Don McDowell]

405gr of boolit and 70gr of powder, YIKES that's gonna make one h#$@ of a boom!!! I think that you're gonna find that old original Black Powder calibers like 45-70 are much more fun with the correct powder. That new smokeless stuff just doesn't do it in some calibers for a lot of us.

You do know that 70 grs of blackpowder is the correct charge, and has been since the cartridges inception in 1864?

 

[Foto Joe]

Yup, my comment was "Tongue in Cheek" so to speak. I've fired mil-spec (or as close as I can get in modern brass) in numerous cartridges. The only Black Powder 45-70 I've fired though was in a Gatling Gun so I didn't get the real effect of the recoil but I've been trying to talk a buddy of mine into letting me load some of his 45-70's for a Shiloh Sharps. Unfortunately he fired some of my 45 Colts stuffed with 40gr of 3f Swiss and he's a little gun shy shall we say.

I can say that sitting down behind a Gatling Gun and cranking out those boolits isn't something that I will forget in the near future. Best of all it was my wife who insisted on paying for the session one Valentines Day at Ben Avery in Phoenix. This one is a keeper.

 

[targetshooter22]

I've read that it's hard to get the full 70 grains of powder in there now because modern brass in thicker than it was then. Also, in at least some cases (pun intended), the brass was "balloon head" meaning the head was hollow for more powder around the primer (e.g. .45 Colt and .44-40).

You will likely be pleasantly surprised with accuracy. A relatively "hot" BP 45-70 in a reproduction Sharps (or Rolling Block) will give you a stout bang, but shouldn't be too tough on the shoulder. If you decide to get really creative, consider a duplex load for greater consistency and a cleaner burn. A few grains of 4759 at the bottom has been used to improve ignition with very good results (this is legal in some competitions, but not in others; check your rules if you do this).

 

[Don McDowell]

It's not hard, in fact it's quite easy to get 70 grs and more of 2f into a modern 45-70 case.
Using good powder and loading technigue and fouling control, having a spread of less than 10 fps is not out of the question.
With the exception of some of the gong shoots, duplexing is not allowed.
Interesting how things get twisted around over time. The original purpose of duplexing was because the old primers would not reliably ignite the smokeless powder of the day, so they put a few grs of black in the bottom of the case to get the smokeless powder to give consistant ignition. Get a copy of Ned Roberts Schuetzen rifle book , he discus's the duplex loading along with powder screening, ( hint , it wasn't blackpowder they screened)

 

[StrawHat]

As has been said, a slow pouring of powder, a couple of inches above the funnel will help you get more powder in the case. As for balloon heads (originally called solid heads), they have not been used for years, and most have been relegated to the collectors. Modern brass can and does accept 70+ grains of powder and still has room for the bullet. It just takes a bit of finese to do so.

 

[jgh4445]

I didn't have a bit of trouble getting 70 grains in. The bullet needed to seat right at 1/2 inch deep. Used a .030 wad and a compression die. No problem. By the way that is 70 grains as weighed on a digital scale. The brass measure, set at 70, actually poured 66.4 grains in pretty consistently.

 

[Don McDowell]

Different lots of powder can vary quite a bit in actual weight.
I have a cheap brass measure that I bought at KMART back in about 76 or 77, but that thing set at what ever charge would throw just that much of the Goex 2f . I just checked it a little bit ago, and it still throws what it says it should of that era Goex, but drops from 5 grs when throwing charges of Olde Eynsford 1.5. I'm planning on draggin the ol flintlock out when the weather cooperates and doing a velocity and accuracy comparison between those two powders.

 

[jgh4445]

Hate to hijack my own thread, but I'm about to make a powder buy and I'm pretty much settled on Swiss 2F. I just can't help but wonder if Swiss 1.5 would be better in the Sharps. 2F is great in the C&B revolvers and my Lancaster .50 and my 62 Smoothie. Hate to order up a bunch of 2F if 1.5 is better. Have you compared the two in the 45-70?

 

[Don McDowell]

You might want to explore the Olde Eynsford powder.

 

[jgh4445]

I have about 3 lbs of each ( Goex- Swiss 2F) on hand so I think I'll wait for the weather to clear and see what your tests say.

 

[Don McDowell]

When OE hit the market last spring I did the comparisons and it runs quite a bit faster than regular Goex, and the same or a little faster than Swiss in cartridge guns.
The best part is it's fouling is extremely easy to deal with, and at only a buck a pound more than regular Goex, it's an extremely viable alternative to Swiss.

 

[Pete D.]

Loads

Interesting how things get twisted around over time. The original purpose of duplexing was because the old primers would not reliably ignite the smokeless powder of the day, so they put a few grs of black in the bottom of the case to get the smokeless powder to give consistant ignition. Get a copy of Ned Roberts Schuetzen rifle book , he discus's the duplex loading along with powder screening, ( hint , it wasn't blackpowder they screened)

Paul Matthews has a couple of paragraphs about duplex loads in his book "Forty Years with the 45-70".
Different powders and Granulations and their effect greatly interest me.
How did you measure the difference in speed vis a vis OE and Goex/Swiss?
Did equal volumes weigh the same? Just curious.
Pete

 

[Don McDowell]

Charges were checked first by a volume measure set at 70 grs, shot over a chronograph, then charges weighed and fired over a chronograph. Same gun bullet etc each time.
Weights were of course different for each brand when thrown in the volume measure, which wasn't unexpected, considering the different recipes and lots etc.

 

[Pete D.]

Thanks

Don: thanks for the response. One further question: did you actually use the same weight powder charge for each brand? I got the impression that you fired one series loaded by volume and thus different weight powder charges and then another series wherein all the charges were weighed and were the same. Is that correct?
Pete

 

[Don McDowell]

Yes as stated above. First came the comparison by dropping the charges from a measure that was set to throw 70 grs of goex 2f. Quite naturally the other brands and varieties of powder actual weight was different. Then went back to the other powder thrower and each powder was weighed for a 70 gr charge.

 

[Don McDowell]

Yes if went from a front aperature with the bull centered, then changed to a post at 6 oclock that will definetly change poi.
Don't overlook what you use for a grip on with the gun hand. You go to changing how you grasp the rifle with your gun hand and you can start getting poi all over the place. Cheek weld , and eye placement in alignment with the rear sight will change things as well.
Consistancy think consistency.

 

[jgh4445]

Great points all. Thanks Don. Right now, I'm using a caldwell leather front rest, resting the under side of the breech just ahead of the lever on the bag. I'm of course controlling the hammer and trigger with the right hand and squeezing the bags in under the stock for final sight picture with my left hand under the stock. Trying to take as much "me" out of it as possible at this point. Don't have or want a lead sled. I can shoot basically the same way on the bench as I do out of one of our larger shooting houses. Cross or shooting sticks comes in at BP102, I'm still at BP 101 for now.

 

[Don McDowell]

Move that bag out to the forearm where your hand you be if you were shooting without rest. Get your bags up high enough that you are setting mostly straight up, that's the way these rifles were designed to be shot..Sitting up straighter also helps to adjust to the recoil.