Sharps 45-70 BP loading

[Old Shatterhand]

Hi, I am a bit reluctant to open a new thread but I was not able to find the right answer during my search on the forum .(or did not do the right search)

I own a Marlin 1895 in 45-70 and do reload .But I have never reloaded a BP cartridge.
However I do shoot BP out of muzzleloader rifle and revolver.

My biggest problem right now is to understand how to correctly load a cartridge .

To explain :
My Lyman black powder handbook tells me the load should be 70 gr Pyrodex RS with 300gr bullets

I filled a 45-70 cartridge with 70gr out of my flask.
Then I tapped the cartridge and naturally the powder compacted.
To my surprise my 300gr bullet would not seat deep enough to touch or even compress the powder !

From what I understand of the matter this is not a good thing .

So I am confused. Do I have to put wads under the bullet like in my Walker revolver?
The handbook does not mention it .

Or am I just too over cautious ? Can I just fill in the 70gr and shove the bullet on top of it ?
Is this compressing the powder enough?

Or maybe I am too green on BP cartridges and have not done my homework correct :-(

Please give me a shove in the right direction

 

[DocRock]

There should be no air space between bullet and powder. Pyrodex doesn’t want much compression, so a wad filler between powder and bullet will do the trick.

There is a lot of information on loading black powder cartridges. You should really do some more research.

 

[vintovka]

I shoot 45/70 in my trapdoors and original RB buffalo rifles I use cornstarch to take up any space between powder and bullet.

 

[Old Shatterhand]

I use cream of wheat in my Walker, so same can be done in the 47-70.
Good to know.
I reload smokeless for over 30 years now but BP reloading is total new territory .

My Marlin is the guinea pig for the Sharps I have ordered.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

First off your best results will be with real black powder. Seriously. Anything I say, only pertains to real black powder.

A modern case will take 70 grains of powder easily. But you want to compress the powder in a separate step from seating the bullet. The picture I'm posting is 80 grains of 3f under a 400 grain bullet. And I'm sure everyone is getting very tired of that picture.

The more you compress the powder, the cleaner it will burn, less smoke, and more accuracy. Just taking up air space wont' give you best results. Yes, it will still go boom and make smoke and fire, and "hit things".

Put a thin carboard or veggie-wad disc over the powder, and compress it to where the bullet will seat where you want it to. Then seat the bullet. Use a very gentle crimp. That's a trial and error thing.

You can use any weight bullet you want, but I think the 400, 405 and up to 500 grains bring out the "potential" of the .45-70. A 300 grain bullet is very light for the cartridge. Lee makes a mold for a pretty close copy of the standard 405 grain bullet used back in the day. The Speer 400 grain JSP is a good accurate bullet. I'll admit that it is difficult to get 70 grains or more under a 500 grain bullet. But that also depends on the throat length of the chamber. Or how deep you need to seat it, for it to chamber.

Good luck. Don't over-think it. Chuck 70 grains of pixie dust in, throw in a thin cardboard wad/disc, compress it, seat bullet, put in gun and pull trigger.

 

[milsurpguy]

Hey that's 70 grains of pyrodex black powder equivalent volume, not 70gr of actual weight.
So measure out "70 grains of pyrodex" with your favorite blackpowder powder measure and retry.

 

[vintovka]

I used to use cardboard over powder wads. I stopped when i was afraid burning wad might start a fire if it drifted off the mowed range. Same for patched ball ML in mid to late summer.

 

[Old Shatterhand]

View attachment 988825

First off your best results will be with real black powder. Seriously. Anything I say, only pertains to real black powder.

A modern case will take 70 grains of powder easily. But you want to compress the powder in a separate step from seating the bullet. The picture I'm posting is 80 grains of 3f under a 400 grain bullet. And I'm sure everyone is getting very tired of that picture.

The more you compress the powder, the cleaner it will burn, less smoke, and more accuracy. Just taking up air space wont' give you best results. Yes, it will still go boom and make smoke and fire, and "hit things".

Put a thin carboard or veggie-wad disc over the powder, and compress it to where the bullet will seat where you want it to. Then seat the bullet. Use a very gentle crimp. That's a trial and error thing.

You can use any weight bullet you want, but I think the 400, 405 and up to 500 grains bring out the "potential" of the .45-70. A 300 grain bullet is very light for the cartridge. Lee makes a mold for a pretty close copy of the standard 405 grain bullet used back in the day. The Speer 400 grain JSP is a good accurate bullet. I'll admit that it is difficult to get 70 grains or more under a 500 grain bullet. But that also depends on the throat length of the chamber. Or how deep you need to seat it, for it to chamber.

Good luck. Don't over-think it. Chuck 70 grains of pixie dust in, throw in a thin cardboard wad/disc, compress it, seat bullet, put in gun and pull trigger.

Thanks a lot , that was the advise I was looking for.
I am a bloody starter at the BP Cartridge reloading and I have a hell of respect for that ol'black magic .

I tried to do my homework on it but I rather ask a question and look silly than to experience a fatal mistake when I am on the range.

I used 300 grain because that is what I shoot out of my "little" marlin with smokeless powder . It is a lightweight (8 pound) so I can feel pretty much the difference in bullet weight when it goes boom.
I tried up to 405gr and while I still like it to shoot free handed, 405gr from a rest is a pain after 20 shots.

 

[Old Shatterhand]

Hey that's 70 grains of pyrodex black powder equivalent volume, not 70gr of actual weight.
So measure out "70 grains of pyrodex" with your favorite blackpowder powder measure and retry.

Don't worry I am well aware that BP loads are measured by volume.
I poured the BP out of my flask into my cartridge and then emptied my cartridge into my powder measure .

No powder scale used

 

[Old Shatterhand]

I used to use cardboard over powder wads. I stopped when i was afraid burning wad might start a fire if it drifted off the mowed range. Same for patched ball ML in mid to late summer.

I have not used cardboard yet.

The range I shoot is in the desert ( I am in Arizona) , so not much to set on fire
However some "special" guys manage each year in summer to ignite fires on the range with steel core ammo hitting the steel targets down range.

 

[DocRock]

Hey that's 70 grains of pyrodex black powder equivalent volume, not 70gr of actual weight.
So measure out "70 grains of pyrodex" with your favorite blackpowder powder measure and retry.

There is no such measure as a volume of grains. Volume measures are used to approximate weight. Grains are a measure of mass and, for this exercise, weight. Period. Because exact weights are not required from a safety perspective with black powder, a volume measure that approximates a weighed charge across different types and granulations of Black Powder is convenient. The volumetric measures exist to deliver a weight charge approximate to the volume delineated on/by the measure. If a load requires "70 grains" of BP, that is a weight of BP required. A BP measure will approximate that weight through a volume based device.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_(unit)

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Thanks a lot , that was the advise I was looking for.
I am a bloody starter at the BP Cartridge reloading and I have a hell of respect for that ol'black magic .

I tried to do my homework on it but I rather ask a question and look silly than to experience a fatal mistake when I am on the range.

I used 300 grain because that is what I shoot out of my "little" marlin with smokeless powder . It is a lightweight (8 pound) so I can feel pretty much the difference in bullet weight when it goes boom.
I tried up to 405gr and while I still like it to shoot free handed, 405gr from a rest is a pain after 20 shots.

Well there is the recoil thing. Before I switched to BP in my Marlin, (it weighs 7.5 pounds) I used to shoot some really heavy loads with smokeless when I went through my magnumtitis stage. Or was it the "try to make a .45-70 into a .458 Winchester Magnum" stage? I switched to black powder just to make sure no smokeless loads ever got into my Trapdoor Springfields. Didn't lose any accuracy.

I'm kind of immune to recoil it seems, I can shoot the regular 405 grain/70 grain rifle load in my Trapdoor carbine all day, I'm still puzzled that they had to load the carbine down to 55 grains because the rifle load made grown men whimper. ?? Maybe it was the new recruits from New York City.

 

[Jim Watson]

I have no experience with pyrodex or other fake powder, black is best.

I have loaded .38-55 and .40-65 with Swiss 1 1/2 Fg and it does not call for a lot of compression.
My powder charge is what fills the case to the base of the bullet through a 30" drop tube, then compressed with a die by the thickness of a card wad. Not much.

The Goex rep used to say fill your cartridge to the brim with loose powder, then load that amount through a drop tube or with vibration. Compress whatever it takes to seat a card wad and the bullet.
I mashed the dickens out of some Goex FFFg but didn't get a whole lot more velocity and not nearly as good accuracy as with Swiss.

Other than hard card over powder wads to protect the base of the bullet, I do not put non-gunpowder crap in my ammunition.

All I will say about the "grains volume" stuff is what the Sharps Rifle Co. said about 1880.
"For fine shooting, powder should be weighed on a scale."

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Swiss rules. I'm just about out. I do think the quality of Goex has come up quite a bit.

 

[Jim Watson]

Yes, if you want to shoot domestic powder, Olde Eynsford, the top of the line Goex is quite good.

 

[Old Shatterhand]

Thank you very much guys .

I guess my concerns where not to know how much I can compress the powder .

As said I do shoot muzzleloader and there I have no problem with giving the ramrod a good smack to seat the bullet on the powder
With the cartridges , I was just a bit confused because of my smokeless background, press loads are there just last resort

I will prepare my first fife test loads and see how they shoot

Many thanks again for your help . Sometimes you need just a little push into the water to start swimming

 

[Old Shatterhand]

For BP weight by volume or on the scale.
Here is my method I use on my muzzleloader.

Say I want to throw a charge of 40gr
I take 20 charges with my powder measure on 40gr .
Each one I dump on my powder scale .

Then it is just statistics, I throw out any flyer and do the average and standard derivation.

From that I determine my weight powder measure, which will be much more accurate and repeatable .

Don't see any harm in this method .

 

[MEHavey]

1. With the Marlin action, stick with the 300Gould or 405 Lyman to not go over length
2. Measure from crimp groove to bullet base to determine seated-shank depth. Mark a dowel or pencil for later measurement.
3. Fill the case with real BP. Vibrate it down/compact it. The pour off a little at a time until the top of the powder's at bullet shank depth. (the marked dowel)
4. Weigh the powder. That's your load -- whatever it is.
5. Punch out two milk carton wads (or any like cardboard) and push down on top of powder.
6. Seat/crimp the bullet to crimp groove - thereby compressing the powder by the thickness of the card wads.
7. Done.

Powder: 2Fg if you have it, 3Fg if you don't.
Primers: Large Pistol
Bullets: Softest-possible lead (pure or 30:1)
Lube: Softest-possible vegetable/animal-based ... (Crisco/ beeswax 2:1, or lard/beeswax 2:1) (or just pure Crisco or Lard if you're going to shoot it soon)
Cleanup: Soapy water only. Patch dry and oil afterwards. No big deal-- very easy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You can play around will all sorts of bullets, lubes, grease-cookies, compression dies/depths and combos...
...but the above instructions are the Basic Bread recipe

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

First thing is try and find some real BP and pour that Pyrodex in the driveway for weed control or spread it in the yard for fertilizer. It may or may not work but it's as suitable for that purpose as it is as a gunpowder.

70 grains of real BP might still need filler or a thick wad to compress under a 300 grain bullet. Original 45-70 loads were usually 405 and larger bullets. I've honestly never tried a bullet that small in a 45-70.

 

[Old Shatterhand]

I sense some severe animosity against BP substitutes

Point noted .

Just please bear with me for the time I need to adjust.
I bet it is not just me who has trouble to get anything resupplied ( Powder, Primer,Bullets, whatever)

I ran out of percussion caps last week and cannot find online or in driving distance anyone who can sell me some.
I am also uncomfortably low on primers.(Both rifle and pistol)

God nows when I can replenish my stock or if I will run out of what I have in a few month .

So I have to work with what I have at hand.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Understand completely, in my area real black is just not available, so substitute powder or don't shoot. Personally I have no issue with Pyrodex or 777, I put them in the gun, pull the trigger and they go bang. Nuff said.

 

[milsurpguy]

I always hated black powder substitutes.
Real BP seemed to always work better for everything.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

The only substitute i would ever use was discontinued..alliant BlackMZ. That stuff was amazing...and no APP is not the same stuff even though they have the same patent number. 777 is good too but i use real black only...home made or Old Eynseford which is equal in performance to the more expensive Swiss. I wont buy regular goex or other powder brands as its weaker and dirtier than Old Eynseford...and OE is only a 2-3 bux more a pound yet in my opinion is very worth it. My homemade powder is very hot and clean and is equal to swiss/OE in performance and fouling. Another reason i only use black powder is because it lasts forever and doesnt lose its strength/performance..unlike subs that once opened or exposed to air will have a shelf life and its performance will vary over time. As far as pyrodex goes....i hate it. Wont let it touch my guns. Its fouling is sticky and gets into the steels pores and causes rust/pitting...but i live in a high humid environment which contributes to the issues..others dont have the same issues with pyrodex and it works great for them (most are in the deserts or drier areas). Black powder and primer shortages dont affect me as i can make my own primers and black powder. Right now real black powder can be ordered via Grafs...someone just put a post about it yesterday.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

Understand completely, in my area real black is just not available, so substitute powder or don't shoot. Personally I have no issue with Pyrodex or 777, I put them in the gun, pull the trigger and they go bang. Nuff said.

I've not understood this, no one in my area carries it either but Fed Ex runs every day and Powder Inc and others have plenty. I guess unless a person lives in one of the communist states that don't allow it or something.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

It's not the commie state but the hazmat fees, I don't need 25 lbs of powder, just 1 or 2 so can't justify paying a steep price to ship a 14 dollar can of powder, I just use what's available.