Loading 38 Super: Discussion

[Zaydok Allen]

Time for an intervention. . . .

I want you to know I really appreciate this post.

Here's the deal with N105. It will be compressed! If you've never dealt with a powder that requires compression, it might scare you. Obviously it has.

Yep and I did note your comment on that previously as well as Walkalong’s comment about “resisting the seating process. I don’t know that compression scared me so much as frustrated me because it was causing my final product to be out of spec for what I was trying to do. Add in that my magazines seem restrictive and it just had me feeling a bit defeated last night and today I guess.

Don't be afraid. The load data from VihtaVuori was compressed. Using a full charge or near a full charge of N105 it will always be compressed. That's the nature of N105. It's okay with compression. Really. You might feel you are crushing the powder. You are, that's called a compressed load. You'll have to crush it to get the bullet to stay at your desired seating depth. That's normal with N105.

Roger that.

I've run pounds of N105 in my 38 Super with the full charge of 10.4 and 124 grain bullets at around that length or shorter. Other IPSC/USPSA shooters use N105 and do the same thing. They shoot tens of thousands of them every weekend. That's N105. It's one of the very best powders for the 38 Super. It provides high velocity and low pressure. If I had to pick a favorite powder for the 38 Super, N105 would win hands down. VihtaVuori 3N38 would probably get ranked #2. It's compressed, too.

The RMR FMJ FP is NOT the wrong bullet. It's a great bullet for the 38 Super. I've used 10.0 gr N105 with the RMR bullet seated to 1.240" and it's fine. Velocity was 1379 fps from a 5" Kart barrel. It produced a 15-shot group at 25 yards of 1.18".

Seat the bullet to the OAL you need to fit your magazine/chamber. Then go shoot the gun.

This really makes me feel a lot better seeing those numbers and OAL.

So just a little background. I’ve only been loading for about a year and a half. I’ve got 6500 rounds under my belt and now load 5 cartridges. I feel I’ve embraced the hobby pretty whole heartedly. I also load 10mm and 357 mag, both pretty hot. AA#9 and H110

What I haven’t done much of yet is tinker and modify load recipes. I’ve been a by the booker so far. I have a real love of my fingers and a healthy appreciation of pressure. I guess I need to just gain more experience and become a bit more ready to work up a load with modified specs if need be. So this conversation and experience is a good learning experience.

How do you know if it's going to affect feeding? Have you had feeding problems with this gun with shorter OALS?

No, that was just a concern that too much reading created. I worry too much.

While we're at it, I've run A#9 in the 38 Super as well. 12.0 grains and a 125 HAP bullet at 1.240 produced 1451 fps from a 5" barrel and a 10-shot group at 25 yards of 1.50" (the HAP is longer than the bullet Speer used for their data). You have to be a little careful with A#9 because it can be different from one lot # to the next.

Interesting stuff that. I keep several pounds of AA#9 on hand for my 10mm habit, and its usefulness in 357 and 460 magnum. I might have to try that load out.

So I think I’m going to calm down and work on my process a little more. I think I need to try seating more aggressively and drop my OAL to 1.255. I’ll just work them up from there and watch for pressure signs.

What really threw me off is that I’d seat and then before crimping they’d slip. Then fail to cycle. Since I haven’t loaded compressed loads before I’m used to making the dummy round, and away you go. Well the dummy round isn’t really a good measure for seating depth to set your dies if the powder is pushing back, is it? I need to set my seating die with a load of powder under it so I’m seating aggressively and assertively compressing the powder.

Thanks again gents. I really appreciate the feedback on this. This one is a little different animal for me. Will update.

PS. I measured my rounds and they haven’t crept forward. That’s encouraging.

 

[fxvr5]

460Shooter, I understand all of your concerns. We've all been there - not sure what to think with a new powder, scared to hell by a compressed load, realizing that to make a compressed load work you have to turn the seating die waaaaaay down below what is normal to counteract spring-back and pray that things don't explode.

N105 is one of those powders that fits in the new and scary category if you're new at compressed loads. The good news is it reacts well to compression because so many of it's loads (in some calibers) are compressed.

Folks who load 9 Major run into the compression issue as well, as several common powders end up compressed. Check out the figure in the link showing case fill with 9 Major using 115 grain bullets. All those loads will make Major, but case fill varies by powder. The VihtaVuori powders tend to be compressed, especially the 3N38. That's one load where the rounds can grow a little if they are left sitting around for a while.

9 Major case fill: https://d2mhjaozymokej.cloudfront.net/media/1537787/9majorsb-figure-4.jpg

From this article: https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2018/1/9/how-to-use-9-major-in-a-short-barrel/

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I think ATLDave mentioned the growth earlier or in the AA#9 thread. So in your experience have you seen growth with N105 if left to sit too long?

I tend to load in lots of 1000. Since I’m just a recreational shooter at this point my ammo can sit for a bit. If I’m better off only loading what I intend to shoot on the next session then that’s good to note.

 

[fxvr5]

I think ATLDave mentioned the growth earlier or in the AA#9 thread. So in your experience have you seen growth with N105 if left to sit too long?

I've never checked growth with N105. I load most of mine to 1.240-1.245 to fit in a Para Ordnance wide body magazine (longer rounds can stick in the mag) and just kept that OAL for virtually everything 38 Super even if it's in a single stack 1911. The only time I load over 1.245 is round nose bullets for a single stack. I probably don't need to - and I rarely load RN bullets anyway.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Had some success. Bumped them down to 1.255 by setting dies over a charged round. That lead to adequate compression to crimp and hit my target specs. Tried loading a mag, still a bit of shenanigans. Bumped them down to 1.25” and they cycled fine.

Loaded up another 15 rounds at 10.0 grains.

Tomorrow I’ll probably load up some to 10.1gr but I’m going to try these three loads out first.

Hoping to chronograph them Sunday. Also interested to see how the Super Comp brass cycles.

Learned a good lesson here.

 

[cfullgraf]

Here is another data point.

I load 38 Super 130 FMJ with either 8.9 grains AA#7 (1120 fps) or 7.5 grains True Blue (1200 fps). Both are loaded to 1.260" c.o.l.

I've also used Blue Dot in the past, 8.4 grains of Blue Dot giving 1125 fps. Interesting, this load also worked well in my 38/45 Clerke M1911.

Generally, I load ammunition to fit the magazines of my M1911's regardless of what the published loading data says. I work the load up at the alternate c.o.l.

As an aside and a bit off topic, I have an old "headspace on the rim" 38 Super barrel. I can load .358" dia 160 grain SWC cast bullets with 4.2 grains Unique (926 fps) that shoot great in that barrel. Tiny groups and the cases drop in a pile at my feet. Unfortunately, the cartridges do not chamber in a "headspace on the case mouth" barrel. Some day, I may resize some 158-160 grain SWC to .356"diameter and try them again.

 

[fxvr5]

Had some success.

Also interested to see how the Super Comp brass cycles.

Glad that worked. Part of this is to find out what makes the gun (magazines) happy.

The Super Comp brass will feed as smooth as butter and at a higher angle than the semi-rimmed original brass. The semi-rim encourages nosedive, not so much with the rimless versions.

Some guns might need to tweak the extractor for the rimless Super Comp. Many don't. I've been able to adjust extractors so they will work with all versions of the Super, semi-rimmed and rimless.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Glad that worked. Part of this is to find out what makes the gun (magazines) happy.

The Super Comp brass will feed as smooth as butter and at a higher angle than the semi-rimmed original brass. The semi-rim encourages nosedive, not so much with the rimless versions.

Some guns might need to tweak the extractor for the rimless Super Comp. Many don't. I've been able to adjust extractors so they will work with all versions of the Super, semi-rimmed and rimless.

Yep, the extraction is my only concern.

I have repeatedly chambered a 9mm snap cap and it’s been able to headset space off the extractor no problem. Also extracted and ejected fine. Shooting will be the real test, and I’ll bring my punch set so I can adjust on the spot if needed.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

@Walkalong are you going to fiddle with your charge level at all or are you content with what you got?

 

[Walkalong]

Good question. I am not going to be playing pistol games with it, just fun at the range. It almost meets my 3N37 FPS as is, not hot, just upper standard pressure, maybe a hair over.

My first thought was to try 10.2 Grs next, but I could be happy with it as is. Then my next thought was to shorten up to 1.270 +/- and see what 10.0 Grs did. Might go to 10.1 and 1.270 +/-.

With my (self diagnosed) ADDHD there's no telling what I will actually do when I get in the reloading room and load some up.

But right now I have a PRS match the 20th, I have only fire formed 30 of the 100 brass so far, I haven't shot any of the formed and prepped brass at all, haven't even touched the 30 fire formed cases yet. Plus I am having issues with my dope. Yikes.

I'm going to go fire form some more cases after work today, will do it again tomorrow, then clean/size/prep some cases, figure out what charge to use, and shoot them to see what FPS they run at. Then load up for the match. Then after I get my butt kicked, come back home, work up a load, heal up, and practice.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Plus I am having issues with my dope. Yikes.

Ummmm……….. Drugs are bad m'kay.

Sounds like you got some work to do.

I'll post my results when I get some real data to share. I'm enjoying the note sharing in this thread on variances in seating depths and charges. It's helping me overcome the tinkering willies I've had up to this point.

 

[Walkalong]

I know we have some more .38 Super shooters, hopefully they will chime in with loads from mild to top end.

 

[fxvr5]

This link probably has more accuracy-tested load data than any place I'm aware of: https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/super-accurate-38-super-loads/326242

If you want max loads, look at any load manual.

Some folks, like myself, have data that exceeds published loads, but you probably don't want that.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

This link probably has more accuracy-tested load data than any place I'm aware of: https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/super-accurate-38-super-loads/326242

If you want max loads, look at any load manual.

Some folks, like myself, have data that exceeds published loads, but you probably don't want that.

I take it you’re running them through a comped gun?

 

[brutus51]

Well I'm starting to get a hankering to go get a can of N105 thanks to you instigators.
One question that pops up is I noticed Walkalong is using Winchester small rifle primers. Is that what you always use?
Have you tried standard or magnum pistol primers? In my reloading of AA#9 in 10mm I always used standard pistol primers.
AA#9 and N105 have the same burn rate so I'm curious why you would choose the rifle primers.

Just a side note to 460 shooter, I've been into this hobby for darn near 45 years. When I first got into it magnumitis really grabbed me by the short hairs. I would load up really hot 185gr. jacketed bullets for my 44mag. Super Blackhawk and laugh with glee when they vaporized cinder blocks and I don't even want to tell you about the things I did with my rifles. This all passed rather quickly and accuracy became the golden fleece. Not as hard on your equipment either, just sayin.

 

[fxvr5]

I take it you’re running them through a comped gun?

Yes and no. I have both with comp and without comp 38 Supers. I have no concerns running full power + through a non-comped gun.

 

[fxvr5]

AA#9 and N105 have the same burn rate so I'm curious why you would choose the rifle primers.

I can't answer for walkalong, but rifle primers are not necessary in a 38 Super. You can use them, with the usual advice of working up your loads.

I used to load stuff for USPSA competition and standardized my 38 Super loads with Federal small rifle primers. Some of the powders I used were at charge weights past book loads, so I used the rifle primers to reduce primer flow. I also used them with N105 even though I didn't need to, because those loads were within normal pressure limits for the 38 Super. I just did it out of habit. I also use Federal rifle primers for 9 Major loads.

 

[Walkalong]

I noticed Walkalong is using Winchester small rifle primers.

When I first started out to load for my retired Race Gun I read about folks using SR primers with the hot .38 Super loads, one reason being primer flow/swipe as @fxvr5 posted. So that is what I started with and have just stuck with it, even though I never did go over "max" in the PDF with 3N37. I did get a little primer swipe with the 3N37 (Why I never went any higher), especially with powders other than 3N37, but with the N-105 I got to nearly the same FPS the other day with zero signs of pressure, primer flow, or primer swipe, and I mean ZERO, and on top of that it looked like low pressure.

I have no doubt SP primers would have been fine with the N-105 load I shot the other day.

 

[Walkalong]

thanks to you instigators

Yea, this is the wrong place to not get the urge for new stuff etc. A fine bunch of enablers if I ever saw any.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Just loaded up 20 rounds at 10.1 gr. So I’ve got fifty rounds to try out tomorrow.

I got a call from my LGS yesterday also. My CZ Shadow 2 is in, so tomorrow aight to be a good time.

 

[brutus51]

The 38 Super is a new cartridge for me and being something of a caliber junkie I love reloading to find recipe's that provide ultimate performance.
Never used any of the VV powders as I'm somewhat stuck in a rut with powders that I have used forever and am familiar with.
That being said how does N105 perform in .357 and .44 magnum?

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Here is another data point.

I load 38 Super 130 FMJ with either 8.9 grains AA#7 (1120 fps) or 7.5 grains True Blue (1200 fps). Both are loaded to 1.260" c.o.l.

I've also used Blue Dot in the past, 8.4 grains of Blue Dot giving 1125 fps. Interesting, this load also worked well in my 38/45 Clerke M1911.

Generally, I load ammunition to fit the magazines of my M1911's regardless of what the published loading data says. I work the load up at the alternate c.o.l.

As an aside and a bit off topic, I have an old "headspace on the rim" 38 Super barrel. I can load .358" dia 160 grain SWC cast bullets with 4.2 grains Unique (926 fps) that shoot great in that barrel. Tiny groups and the cases drop in a pile at my feet. Unfortunately, the cartridges do not chamber in a "headspace on the case mouth" barrel. Some day, I may resize some 158-160 grain SWC to .356"diameter and try them again.

I bet those are some really soft shooting rounds. Must be fun!

 

[Zaydok Allen]

The 38 Super is a new cartridge for me and being something of a caliber junkie I love reloading to find recipe's that provide ultimate performance.
Never used any of the VV powders as I'm somewhat stuck in a rut with powders that I have used forever and am familiar with.
That being said how does N105 perform in .357 and .44 magnum?

I only have N110 data for those cartridges. Not sure why.

Maybe it needs compression? Too large of cases may limit that and damage performance?

 

[Walkalong]

N110 is much better suited to .44 Mag, N-105 will work of course.

 

[brutus51]

I visited their website, they have a pretty nice load data section. Just curious as to where they got the 5-1/2" barrel.
Since they are European I could understand a 100mm (3.937) a common barrel length but 140mm.
Is N105 a spherical powder? how well does it meter?
Currently using Universal Clays for my upper end target loads in .357,.44 and .45Colt and 2400 or AA#9 for my target magnum loads. Still have a can of H110 but I rarely use it anymore. As I mentioned earlier, for me the magnumitis ship has sailed.