Loading 38 Super: Discussion

[Zaydok Allen]

Haven't heard from you in a while, wondering how your reloading is coming along.
My latest is a 115gr. Hornady Hap bullet with 10.0gr of AA#7. Haven't had a chance to shoot them yet anaconda it's to darn hot outside.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to do much. I cleaned my Pointman, and tightened down the extractor a little more. Obviously I won't know if it's tight enough until I shoot.

I'm planning on loading up 50 of the 10.4 gr loads for my next session. I have a two week long road trip coming up in a week and a half though, so I doubt I'll be able to go shooting next weekend. Gotta pack and whatnot.

On the other happy side of things, I think I mentioned the DW bobtail commander I had my eye on earlier on in this thread. I decided to take action. I traded my S&W E series in as a down payment for putting this beasty on layaway. This one's a 45 acp. I'm probably going to trade in a few other guns, including a SA XDs that I don't really shoot any more towards it.



I struggled with it and thought I should maybe go after a bobtailed 38 super commander. But I want at least one 45 cal 1911 in my lineup.

I bet those 115 gr bullets zip along pretty good!

Question: Are you using rimmed or rimless brass? Have you had to fiddle with your extractor much?

 

[brutus51]

You won't be sorry about getting the .45ACP DW bobtail . My personnel CCW, home defense gun is a duty finish Valor and I love it.
Can't shoot it as accurately as my Gold cup or Kimber Super Match but that's more my aging eyes than the pistol.
Still it shoots minute of bad guy and once broken in it has been very reliable. Wanted to stove pipe jam with anything but round nose ammo for the first 800 rounds or so. Didn't experience this with the PM-38.
I'm a big proponent of "Big and slow is the way to go" and " Your .38 may not expand but my .45 won't shrink"
The only time I leave a 1911 behind is when I'm in the north woods, then I carry a mountain gun in .45 Colt with Cast Performance WFN handloads.
In answer to your question I've been using rimless Starline brass in my PM-38. Haven't had a single problem.
Just won a bid on a Dan Wesson Guardian in .38 Super. Hoping it gets here before the weekend.
Didn't need it just had to have it. Damn these Dan Wesson's are habit forming.

 

[roc1]

You have a fine pistol there as well I have same gun amazing feels like slide is on ball bearings. I just don’t shoot it as well as it deserves but still trying different loads. Zero bullets work well and don’t break the bank for jacketed. It is a great weapon though.
Roc1

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I'm a big proponent of "Big and slow is the way to go" and " Your .38 may not expand but my .45 won't shrink"

I am as well in many cases. I have always enjoyed fast moving laser cartridges as well, but in a lot of cases the solid thump of a 45 is all you need, and all your ears will tolerate. I've been carrying 357's for a long time, but As I get older I question the wisdom in that. a 357 out of a 3" barrel will leave your ears ringing. A 45 is still plenty loud, but may be a bit easier on the ears in the long run if it's actually needed, and a 45 caliber slug of the 230 gr variety will push it's way through any threat I'm likely to encounter in my neck of the woods.

Just won a bid on a Dan Wesson Guardian in .38 Super.

Ah! You got one! Cool. Is it the commander length Pointman, or the Guardian with the aluminum frame?

Damn these Dan Wesson's are habit forming.

Indeed. It's funny, I'd never even handled one up until my 38 Super. Now I'm finding it has totally rekindled my interest in the 1911. My S&W E series was a nice entry level gun, and I was content. But I didn't shoot it at all last year. Not once. Then I compared it to my DW, and I realized the DW was just a lot more refined, and appealed to me so much more. The nearly naked slide is beautiful to me in it's simplicity. The slide serrations are cleaner. The fit and finish is superior. The controls feel more solid. The gun is tighter but feels smoother than the Smith. And once I saw that bobtail, I couldn't walk away. I've wanted a bobtail for a long time, and since I have guns sitting around I don't shoot much any more, this seems a great chance to clean out the collection a little in favor of some better options.

I've handled a lot of the entry level 1911s out there, and some of the higher quality mass produced guns from SA and Kimber, Sig, and now DW. I have also been handling Ed Browns, Wilson Combats, and Nighthawk customs lately. The semi custom guns are really nice, and there is a real difference in how they feel and in the triggers compared to my DW. But it's not enough of an upgrade to warrant the massive jump in price to me. So I've basically come to view DWs as the best affordable 1911's out there before you make the jump to the next tier, which all seem to begin around $2,200 new.

Regardless of what else may be available, I feel happy I'm finally getting to buy the quality 1911's I've always wanted to own. If they shoot straight, and function properly, then I don't see myself ever really caring about the truly high end semi-customs.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

On another unrelated note, I have a question for anyone that's listening. So I've been struggling with my extractor tension. So what about this? What if I bought a full size extractor for a 9mm 1911 for rimless brass, and kept the original for rimmed? I don't have rim dimensions or case head dimensions sitting in front of me, so maybe I'm way off. Thought I'd ask.

I'm a little frustrated with the process of tunning the extractor. There's no good way for me to do it without adjust and then go shoot when I get a chance. Then try again.

 

[ATLDave]

Well, there's always the "***** bending extractors, I'm OUT" solution: https://dawsonprecision.com/extractors-1911-by-aftec/

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Well, there's always the "***** bending extractors, I'm OUT" solution: https://dawsonprecision.com/extractors-1911-by-aftec/

Hmmmm. Well that is interesting isn't it. Have you used one of these?

Always heard good things about the products Dawson Precision carries, as in they don't sell junk.

 

[brutus51]

Only time I ever messed with an extractor was on my 45 year old Gold cup. After maybe 20K rounds through it needed some tweeking.
Built a fixture to hold it, indicated it straight then I gave it some light taps until I had about .005 taper along it's length.
Re-installed it and it's been working fine ever since. That was about 5 years ago, maybe more.
Unlike my Kimbers I've never had to replace a part on the Colt.
Only problem with it is that after all this time the trigger pull is now about 1-1/2 to 2 lbs. God I love that gun but with that trigger pull it's no good for serious duty.
Still in all after all these years of my mitt gripping her she's the most accurate of all my 1911's

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Finally after a month and a half I got back on the bench. Travel’s fun and all, but being home has its perks.

Loaded 50 rounds at max charge of 10.4 gr N105. Will share the results when weather cooperates.

That’s a full case.

 

[Dustbowl]

If you are still having extractor trouble there is a way to tune that. Brownells sells a set or you can just make a piece the same diameter and thickness as a case rim. Attach it to a trigger pull gauge and pull it down out of the extractor. Ideal tension is 25 to 28 ounces of force to pull out the gauge.

This method has helped me solve a lot of extractor related problems in 1911’s.

Here’s a good write up on extractor tuning:

https://www.brownells.com/userdocs/learn/bt002002.pdf

 

[Zaydok Allen]

If you are still having extractor trouble there is a way to tune that. Brownells sells a set or you can just make a piece the same diameter and thickness as a case rim. Attach it to a trigger pull gauge and pull it down out of the extractor. Ideal tension is 25 to 28 ounces of force to pull out the gauge.

This method has helped me solve a lot of extractor related problems in 1911’s.

Here’s a good write up on extractor tuning:

https://www.brownells.com/userdocs/learn/bt002002.pdf

Thanks! I’ll give it a read.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

@fxvr5 @Walkalong @brutus51
@ATLDave

Gents,

I’m somewhat excited to share this with you guys since you all were kind enough to give me feedback early on. I know this is probably old hat to y 'all but it was interesting for me.

Today I finally got to try out my max loaded 38 Supers.

OAL is still 1.25”. Still using 124 gr RMR Truncated Cone Match Winners. Charge was 10.4 gr of N105. CCI SPPs.

I sent 30 rounds past my Labradar and I was a bit surprised. At a charge one tenth higher than the last charge of 10.3 gr, I saw what I thought was a substantial jump in velocity.

50 degrees, 50% Humidity, and 6800 feet in elevation.

Ave 1449
High 1479
Low 1431
ES 48
SD 10.5.

The accuracy was perfectly acceptable at 25 yards and slapping a 6” steel plate wasn’t hard. That’s chugging along pretty good. It seemed like a bigger jump than I would have expected based on the increase from my previous charge increases.

It seems from this that high velocities approaching the aforementioned load data doesn’t really occur until near or at max. But I only have the one gun to try them in.

While the data may be optimistic, I’m guessing with a 10.4 gr charge and an extra 0.5” on the barrel, 1500 FPS may in fact be realistic. But I’m just fine with this performance and am content with the accuracy though I should probably put rounds on paper to measure groups.

Primers looked the same as before, just a very slight cratering, but the edges are still very rounded. No case bulges. Seem stout, but perfectly safe in my gun.

Walkalong if you get back to playing with charge levels, please share if you see similar max charge jumps in velocity. I’m just curious.

I appreciate the help gents and the encouragement. THIS is my preferred load. Real 38 Super velocity with good accuracy was the goal.

Unfortunately my gun is still showing erratic ejection and mangling some brass. I had 3 point failures today. Too tight. So I believe I’m going to buy an Aftec extractor and see how it does. But I’ll take the fun and small victory of loading some good and consistent ammo.

 

[ATLDave]

Yeah, that's burning along pretty dang good for an autoloader round! That's basically duplicating the "real .357" 125-grain "gold standard of one-stop shot performance" loads.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Yeah, that's burning along pretty dang good for an autoloader round! That's basically duplicating the "real .357" 125-grain "gold standard of one-stop shot performance" loads.

Indeed! Honestly speaking it's probably more velocity than I need, and now that I've slept on it a bit, I may back off to 10.3 or 10.35 grains. I mean it shot just fine at 10.3, I just felt compelled to chase that 1400 fps mark. The recoil was a bit stouter than I remember for the 10.3 gr charge, but that isn't surprising given the 50 fps jump in average velocity, and that I haven't shot the gun since July.

All in all for my neck of the woods, there isn't a dangerous animal here that a 124 gr bullet at 1400-1425 fps won't do in. We have no bear hear, only lions and rednecks.

Since I have 3.5 lbs of N105 left I'll likely load up another 500-750 rounds like these, then pull the toolhead and start developing 9mm luger loads. I burned through my 9mm supply very fast after buying that dang Shadow 2. I can't overstate how much I enjoy shooting that gun, so it's time to tailor make rounds to suit it.

I also can readily get my hands on AA#7 here, and I'd like to try that in 38 super as well since it's another top performer. Not paying shipping or hazmat fees would be nice, and more importantly I don't need to be home to sign for them.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

@fxvr5 @Walkalong @brutus51
@ATLDave

Gents,

I’m somewhat excited to share this with you guys since you all were kind enough to give me feedback early on. I know this is probably old hat to y 'all but it was interesting for me.

Today I finally got to try out my max loaded 38 Supers.

OAL is still 1.25”. Still using 124 gr RMR Truncated Cone Match Winners. Charge was 10.4 gr of N105. CCI SPPs.

I sent 30 rounds past my Labradar and I was a bit surprised. At a charge one tenth higher than the last charge of 10.3 gr, I saw what I thought was a substantial jump in velocity.

50 degrees, 50% Humidity, and 6800 feet in elevation.

Ave 1449
High 1479
Low 1431
ES 48
SD 10.5.

The accuracy was perfectly acceptable at 25 yards and slapping a 6” steel plate wasn’t hard. That’s chugging along pretty good. It seemed like a bigger jump than I would have expected based on the increase from my previous charge increases.

It seems from this that high velocities approaching the aforementioned load data doesn’t really occur until near or at max. But I only have the one gun to try them in.

While the data may be optimistic, I’m guessing with a 10.4 gr charge and an extra 0.5” on the barrel, 1500 FPS may in fact be realistic. But I’m just fine with this performance and am content with the accuracy though I should probably put rounds on paper to measure groups.

Primers looked the same as before, just a very slight cratering, but the edges are still very rounded. No case bulges. Seem stout, but perfectly safe in my gun.

Walkalong if you get back to playing with charge levels, please share if you see similar max charge jumps in velocity. I’m just curious.

I appreciate the help gents and the encouragement. THIS is my preferred load. Real 38 Super velocity with good accuracy was the goal.

Unfortunately my gun is still showing erratic ejection and mangling some brass. I had 3 point failures today. Too tight. So I believe I’m going to buy an Aftec extractor and see how it does. But I’ll take the fun and small victory of loading some good and consistent ammo.

Critical edit from my above post:

These are loaded to 1.25” OAL. Changed my post above.

 

[brutus51]

Glad to hear about your loads meeting your expectations. Been keeping an eye out for some N105 but haven't been able to find it locally.
Would really be interested in finding out about your accuracy results.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Glad to hear about your loads meeting your expectations. Been keeping an eye out for some N105 but haven't been able to find it locally.
Would really be interested in finding out about your accuracy results.

Yep, I had to order that powder from Bownell’s. If I ever find it in person for a reasonable price, I’d buy 8 lbs without batting an eye.

I don’t typically post group sizes because I’m no bullseye shooter and I don’t have a ransom rest. My shooting is geared towards self defense and if I can muster a 6” group off hand at 25 yards, shooting relatively fast, I consider it accurate enough. And that’s why I use a 6” steel plate at 25 yards.

That being said, I do have a sand bag and could certainly set up off the tail gate of my truck. I may do that when I get a new extractor.

 

[brutus51]

Well I guess that's where we are different as all my re-loading is centered about accuracy. Hard pressed to go out of my way for some N105 as I have an abundance of other powders available, if I found a can I'd snap it up. So far Tight group for target and AA#7 for high velocity loads have been my mainstay for the 38 Super with good results.
Would really like to try some AA#9 with a 124gr. XTP as I've had great results with it in 40 Super ( 10MM for you sillymeter guys) shooting a 180gr XTP at 1250fps. Bench rested produced one 2" hole in target center at 25 yards.
Only problem is the load data in 38 Super for AA#9, that I can find, is only available for 147gr bullets.

 

[hnusz]

I use 9.7gr AA#7 with my cast 125gr rn with a srp in a 5" witness match. Don't have a crony so I don't know how fast its going but its accurate 3" at 25 yards. It will knock down the 12" steel chicken we have at the range with no problem.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Well I guess that's where we are different as all my re-loading is centered about accuracy.

I should really explain my last comment a little better. I don't want to give the impression I don't care about accuracy, because I do.

About four years ago I realized my shooting wasn't really getting any better. It was like I hit a wall. So I thought the problem over and thought about what I was doing when I shot, and I realized I was trying to work on speed shooting and combat accuracy, and then trying to work on slow fire also all in the same range sessions. I was limiting myself because I didn't have enough time, or ammo back then, to really work either skill up. I was trying to focus on everything, and mastering nothing.

So I decided to focus pretty steadily on shooting fast for defense purposes, with the notion that accuracy would build with increased trigger time. I'm pleased to say that I feel it worked, and am now at a point where I need to buy a shot clock, as I can't detect any improvement in speed any longer. I hate to use a tired cliché but the saying slow is smooth and smooth is fast sort of came into things for me, at least initially. I focused on fundamentals of trigger control and sight alignment at distances beyond 15 yards, and then beyond 20 yards after awhile. Now I'm out to 25 yards, so the target keeps getting visually smaller and further away. I discovered the more smooth my actions the less I was bumbling and fumbling. Everything got faster. Picking up targets, follow up shots, reloads, all faster. I also realized that smooth is also more accurate, and combining that with a smaller target also meant aim small, miss small. But now I'm at the point where fast is fast, and that's what I want.

So I'm still building speed, as I employ firearms for a variety of defense roles. I use smaller ones for concealment in populated settings, and large ones in the woods. I'm a professional forester by trade so I'm out in the woods a lot. Hence my notion that shooting fast is more important to me than tiny groups, and hitting minute of vital internal organs is where I need to focus. For now that is. The down side is that when I do want to test accuracy, as in really small groups, I'm sometimes a little disappointed. I get to shooting fast as a result of this training/practice pattern. Refined accuracy will typically decrease as a result with any shooter. So I have to deliberately slow myself down to see what I can do. I actually find my Labradar somewhat helpful in this regard as it will not register all your shots if you are shooting too fast. It makes me slow down.

I feel I've gotten to a point where if I'm ever forced to use a sidearm for defense at 25 yards or less, I'm going to ruin the day of just about any criminal that decides to victimize me, or animal that I have the misfortune of stumbling across that's in a bad mood. But I'm not done yet. So as I become more and more happy with my speed, I will shift back to more precise shooting efforts.

On a side note, I question some of the groups I see posted on the internet. The longer I exist in the digital world, the more I realize there are some really weird people out there that need gratification from strangers. In the shooting sports, I have no doubt a lot of targets being posted with a set distance are being shot at shorter distances than reported. You have no way of knowing if I'm being honest. However, I do believe the majority of folks on THR posting such pictures and info are in fact honest about it.

So, all that being said, the next time I get a relatively warm day, hopefully soon, I will settle down, bring a chair, and try to get some decent groups to share at different distances. I suspect brutus51 that you have been shooting much longer than I and have surpassed the need for fundamentals or speed training. So it doesn't surprise me much our focusses are a little different.

I need to do the same for my Shadow 2. Once I finish out this lot of 38 Supers I'm loading, I'm going to work on developing 9mm loads for that gun.

Would really like to try some AA#9 with a 124gr. XTP as I've had great results with it in 40 Super ( 10MM for you sillymeter guys) shooting a 180gr XTP at 1250fps

Yes sir! I like AA#9 for 10mm also. You get real 10mm velocity in an efficient powder. I keep several pounds of it on hand at any given time. I want to try it in some magnum revolver cartridges, as I have data that is pretty dang close to H110 loads. I'd rather have a variety of good loads figured out using the same components, and specifically powder I can easily find locally, rather than needing to order online.

If I need to sign for powder, I have to take time off work, as I can't have it shipped to my office.

 

[brutus51]

I suspect brutus51 that you have been shooting much longer than I and have surpassed the need for fundamentals or speed training. So it doesn't surprise me much our focusses are a little different.

I must admit that it's a real pleasure to converse with a youngster with good manners, yes it's true I've gotten old and slow and the eyesight ain't what it used to be but I appreciate the diplomacy used in your choice of words. My only edge on you is that I've been there and done that.
Handguns are by far and away at the bottom of the list of my shooting endeavors, trap and skeet have always been #1 with rifles coming in at #2.
This is because of my love for hunting especially upland game with my Springer Spaniels.
Living in a urban environment handguns get the nod because of the close proximity of indoor ranges which I can enjoy on a weekly basis. Otherwise it's a 40 mile trip to my gun club where I can enjoy my other passions.
On the other hand if you really want to hone your speed skills try grouse hunting. Shooting at pheasants is like hitting a flying football but damn those grouse are fast. In my case the judge of my performance is my Springer Spaniel. Happy wagging tail as he retrieves a downed bird but you get a really disappointed look if you miss. Greatest pleasure a person can have.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I must admit that it's a real pleasure to converse with a youngster with good manners

A youngster! I like it. I haven't felt young for several years, but it's all relative. You should see my employees! I refer to them as kids when talking to my older coworkers!

However, when it comes to guns, I do consider myself relatively young. You can come a long ways in a decade+, but I truly believe experience trumps younger reflexes in a lot of cases, and there are people on here who have been shooting for 40+ years. I consider where I an after 12 years, and wonder what I'll know in another 28 years. I still need to focus on those fundamentals of trigger control, where a lot of more experienced shooters don't have to give it a second thought. More experienced shooters have just plain done more. Younger or less experienced shooters would be wise to at least listen and consider that. It doesn't mean wisdom is always wise, because times are changing all the time, but consideration at least needs to happen.

When it comes to reloading, I'm basically a kid who just had their training wheels taken off. It's fun and exciting, but crashes happen now and then and I need mom or dad to help me up. In fact my early heartburn in this thread is a very good example of just that. In the last 1.75 years I've taken up 45 acp, 10mm auto, 38 Special, 357 magnum, 38 Super, and am about to start in on 9mm. I also bought S&W 460 magnum dies and will likely get into loading that this winter. Despite my enthusiasm and fervor, I learn new things on THR almost every time I visit the reloading area.

I'm old enough to know just how ignorant I am.