loading 9 & 40
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CZ57
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Ramshot Silhouette and it has a flash inhibitor. It was the original .40 S&W powder when it was known as Winchester Action Pistol. It is also excellent in the 9mm. HS-6 would be my next choice. Power Pistol produces a LOT of muzzle flash. AA#7 is better in the 9 than it is in the .40 S&W. 
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Of the powders you listed I would use HS-6 without a doubt...
beatledog7
Member
Of those, HS-6.
oneounceload
member
There is also Universal Clays to consider
LiveLife
Member
I have used HS-6 and would second Universal and add WSF.
Captaingyro
Member
I have loaded .40 with TiteGroup, HS-6, and Universal.
All are excellent, but here are the particulars:
If you want max performance out of your loads, HS-6.
If you want decent performance, accuracy, and economy, TiteGroup. But TiteGroup scares me just a little in the .40. You can double-charge easily, and it's a little snappy. That having been said, it's quite a performer. Last week I had twenty-four round rounds left over after a practice session, and decided to plink them off at a sixteen inch gong set out at seventy yards. Rang the bell eighteen times out of a 4.5 inch barrel.
My all-around favorite is Universal Clays. It's just a sweetheart of a powder. You can use it for almost everything (think Unique, but clean). It has a nice volume in the case, shoots pretty soft, doesn't smoke much even with cast bullet lube, and is fairly ecomomical. I'm tempted to use it as my only handgun powder.
All are excellent, but here are the particulars:
If you want max performance out of your loads, HS-6.
If you want decent performance, accuracy, and economy, TiteGroup. But TiteGroup scares me just a little in the .40. You can double-charge easily, and it's a little snappy. That having been said, it's quite a performer. Last week I had twenty-four round rounds left over after a practice session, and decided to plink them off at a sixteen inch gong set out at seventy yards. Rang the bell eighteen times out of a 4.5 inch barrel.
My all-around favorite is Universal Clays. It's just a sweetheart of a powder. You can use it for almost everything (think Unique, but clean). It has a nice volume in the case, shoots pretty soft, doesn't smoke much even with cast bullet lube, and is fairly ecomomical. I'm tempted to use it as my only handgun powder.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
The problem I have with Clays is, it's a very fast powder (think Bullseye, not Unique) and fast powder in high pressure calibers concern me. Pressure spikes are possible.
I think its pretty hard to beat Unique for use in either the 9 or the 40 in either lower velocity target loads or full power. You can get a few fps faster in the .40 with some of the other powders but nothing worth bragging about.
In the 9 you can get +P and even +P+ velocities using Unique while staying within published standard pressure load data. Over the chrono I've always got results more consistent with the published load velocities using Unique than many of the other powders.
In the 9 you can get +P and even +P+ velocities using Unique while staying within published standard pressure load data. Over the chrono I've always got results more consistent with the published load velocities using Unique than many of the other powders.
tightgroup tiger
Member
ArchAngle, Universal Clays is slower burning than Unique. Not much slower, bout the same thing.
I don't see Clays listed anywhere in this post.
I like Universal for both 9 and 40 also.
I don't see Clays listed anywhere in this post.
I like Universal for both 9 and 40 also.
gahunter12
Member
I load 40s&w with WST. It's clean, accurate, and low recoil. WST is the go to powder for my Compitition loads.
CZ57
member
In my earlier post I should have said of the three you mentioned I would choose HS-6.
The best powder that I found for loading full power loads in both calibers was Vihta Vouri 3N37. It also has a very low flash signature. Most of these powders except the fast burners that have been mentioned will push .40 S&W to the top of its velocity envelope except maybe AA#7. It doesn't seem to like the short and fat principle as much.
Steve C. mentioned that you could get very high velocity in 9mm at standard pressure with Unique and that may depend on whose data your looking at. The highest velocity I ever achieved in 9mm at what used to be standard pressure was with Blue Dot and Vihta Vouri 3N37.
I started using Silhouette when I first heard that it was the former WAP and in comparing it with 3N37, they look very similar and burn rate is also very similar and they are both very low flash powders. This is important if you load your own for defense, or want to shoot a load that mimics your factory carry load. Especially if you shoot at night.
I have seen Clark's posts on Power Pistol but if you want a broader view peruse on over to Brian Enos' Forum to see what powders are being used for 9mm Major. The three preferred powders are 3N37, HS-6 and Silhouette. As far as my experience goes, 3N37 and Silhouette are also the better powders for the .40 S&W. The advantage ultimately going to Silhouette because of cost.
The best powder that I found for loading full power loads in both calibers was Vihta Vouri 3N37. It also has a very low flash signature. Most of these powders except the fast burners that have been mentioned will push .40 S&W to the top of its velocity envelope except maybe AA#7. It doesn't seem to like the short and fat principle as much.
Steve C. mentioned that you could get very high velocity in 9mm at standard pressure with Unique and that may depend on whose data your looking at. The highest velocity I ever achieved in 9mm at what used to be standard pressure was with Blue Dot and Vihta Vouri 3N37.
I started using Silhouette when I first heard that it was the former WAP and in comparing it with 3N37, they look very similar and burn rate is also very similar and they are both very low flash powders. This is important if you load your own for defense, or want to shoot a load that mimics your factory carry load. Especially if you shoot at night.
I have seen Clark's posts on Power Pistol but if you want a broader view peruse on over to Brian Enos' Forum to see what powders are being used for 9mm Major. The three preferred powders are 3N37, HS-6 and Silhouette. As far as my experience goes, 3N37 and Silhouette are also the better powders for the .40 S&W. The advantage ultimately going to Silhouette because of cost.
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How are they better? In terms of pure accuracy or velocity v pressure at a certain accuracy level? What I'm getting at is with PP, have you found that accuracy comes only at high pressures? Is 3n37 more forgiving? How'bout Slhouette? Have you found Ramshot's data too conservative? I mean their max is a full grain under Sierra an Hornady's max.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Sorry about that, when I quickly read Universal Clays I thought Hodgdon Clays. Hardly anyone uses the Clays at the end of the Universal any more and just call it Universal. (to avoid confusion)
Of the 3 you mentioned, I like Power Pistol. Max velocities at rated pressures and a big muzzle flash, but not economical because you use a big charge and incomplete combustion by the time the bullet exits the barrel.
What do I use? Bullseye!
Sooty as all heck, but very economical and the soot doesn't seem build up into crud on the internals of my autoloaders, it just remains a thin coat of soot. Same as on the outside of my stainless revolver. An instant coat of black that never seems to get any thicker.
Bullseye reaches peak pressure very quickly (time wise), but tails off more like Unique. You can also get near-Unique velocities with equal peak pressures using 10-20% less powder.
For pipsqueak loads Clays is the best. It will make your 40 feel like a 9 and your 9 feel like an airsoft gas blowback gun. You feel almost nothing but the action moving back and forth.
What do I use? Bullseye!
Sooty as all heck, but very economical and the soot doesn't seem build up into crud on the internals of my autoloaders, it just remains a thin coat of soot. Same as on the outside of my stainless revolver. An instant coat of black that never seems to get any thicker.
Bullseye reaches peak pressure very quickly (time wise), but tails off more like Unique. You can also get near-Unique velocities with equal peak pressures using 10-20% less powder.
For pipsqueak loads Clays is the best. It will make your 40 feel like a 9 and your 9 feel like an airsoft gas blowback gun. You feel almost nothing but the action moving back and forth.
tightgroup tiger
Member
I based what I said on Hodgdon's burn rate chart, to me they are about the same, that's kind of the trouble with a burn rate chart, they say one is slower than another and is directly above another like Unique is above Universal, but there is no indication of how much slower one is than the one next to it a the chart,
Is it about the same or is there a lot of difference between them. I wish there was a value attached to the burn rates along with the list with them in order.
I just always wondered about that.
CZ57
member
What I found with PP is that at the upper 10% of its load range it produces more recoil, much more muzzle blast and poorer accuracy than 3N37 and Silhouette. When PP first came out Hercules (Now Alliant) liked to advertise how many loads in 9mm had been loaded with PP for the military. I sure hope that the military version had a flash suppressor, otherwise PP is a very poor choice for a defensive load. If you ask Alliant they will tell you that PP is a larger flake version of Bullseye. That's what they told me anyway just after PP hit the market.
I agree with you about Ramshot's 9mm data, it is conservative and I would use the Hornady or Sierra data. Or, if you can find it, Winchesters data for WAP.
As far as IPSC Major 9 goes, the shooters have to work up their own data because it goes beyond any published load data. They tend to only use powders with very good stability at the very high pressures associated with Major 9 that will achieve the velocities required. And while Clark has pushed PP out into the stratosphere, it has never found acceptance with IPSC Major 9 shooters for a myriad of reasons. What I have found is that there is a carryover when building very high velocity defense loads.
They use a "closed bomb" test to get burn rates. The way powders act in cartridges is different. Not only that, but they can differ in different calibers. A powder may act completely different in .45 ACP than it does in 9MM at much higher pressures.
I based my statement on how both powders have behaved for me in the calibers I have tried them in, including 9MM and .40 caliber.
AA #2 acts much slower than most burn rate charts show it.
As far as I've noticed, Ramshot's 9mm loads for Silhouette is the same as the old Winchester Action Pistol loads.
Clays and Universal Clays are totally different powders, be careful getting them confused. Clays is one of the fastest powders. Universal Clays is further down the scale.
I am very leery of Universal Clays in 40SW. Back in the old Compuserve Firearms forum, 6 of 7 kabooms or case ruptures experienced by forum members in 40SW was with Universal Clays! Some suspect that the pressure builds very fast especially with any extra bullet setback, especially with 180gr bullets. I was one of the 7 It took me a dozen years before I went back to reloading 40SW.
Clays and Universal Clays are totally different powders, be careful getting them confused. Clays is one of the fastest powders. Universal Clays is further down the scale.
I am very leery of Universal Clays in 40SW. Back in the old Compuserve Firearms forum, 6 of 7 kabooms or case ruptures experienced by forum members in 40SW was with Universal Clays! Some suspect that the pressure builds very fast especially with any extra bullet setback, especially with 180gr bullets. I was one of the 7
It took me a dozen years before I went back to reloading 40SW.- Status
