Loading considerations for BP cartridges

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BCRider

BCRider

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THinking ahead to when I get around to reloading some cowboy action cartridges with black powder or subsitutes I got to wondering about a few things;

  1. How, if at all, do any of you deal with neutralizing any static risk at the reloading station when handling black powder? I'll obviously use all metal equipment. I was thinking I'd switch the powder reservoir on my Dillon 550 over to a metal tube but then I remembered that my press tends to seep some "dust" which I'd rather not have to deal with if it was black powder dust. So I'll stick with passing the cases through the Dillon to size and decap and re-cap and then remove to a block for charging with powder. It's not like I'll be doing many thousands of such rounds at a time anyway. Likely no more than 500 at a go since a day of cowboy shooting is only 100 rounds total between the revolvers and lever gun.
  2. Is there a benefit to using a substitute such as 777 in cartridges? Some of the guys are using BP in their shot shells but go with Pyrodex or 777 in their cartridges. From reading at Hogdon's site they specifically warn that the residue from Pyrodex is more corrosive than BP but don't say a lot about 777.
  3. If I go with BP in the cartridges I'm guessing that I'd want to steam away the lube that the bullets come with and relube with a non petroleum lube so that the residue doesn't get tarry on me. I'm thinking to heat the bullets in a steamer to melt it away. That sound about right? Or if I go with 777 would it be more friendly with the existing smokeless bullet lube? Oddly enough the reloaders mostly all told me that they go with 777 or Pyrodex in their cartridges. I never thought to ask why but in thinking about the bullet lubing issue I'm thinking this is why they don't shoot black in them. Too much work to sweat away the existing lube and redo it. Or could I just go with copper jacketed rounds and avoid the lube issue? What did the old BP original cartridges use for bullet lube?

Oyeboten, if you're reading this I remember that you posted about shooting black powder rounds from your old .38 S&W. Did you use the bullets as they came or did you replace the lube or use jacketed rounds?
 
Hi BCRider,



Far as Satitic Electricity, just make sure you have no Wool containing Carpeting under or about the Re-Loading Station, and do not be petting Cats hard, or or rubbing your head or Hair with a Balloon while at the Station, and all should be well.


Just have wrong-lube Bullets in some Boiling Water, and you can skim off the wrong lube from the Water surface, once cooled.


'777' is good, and gets no compression and no air gap either.

Black Powder of course is good, and it prefers compression, and, always - at any rate - no Air Gap between it and the Bullet.

'Pyrodex' I do not know about and I do not use it.


When I am re-loading .38 Special with Black Powder, I had non lubed Bullets, and or was Casting my own.

I may have loaded up some which came pre-lubed for Smokeless as well, and I just used my Lube Wafers underneath and never saw any issues.


For Lube, for any of my Black Powder Cap & Ball Revolvers, or, Cartridge Revolvers, I use a Home-Made 'Lube Wafer'.

Details on that if you are interested.



I have not used any Jacketed Rounds in any of my re-Loading.


I would say that to my mind, Black Powder ought to be Lead Bullets and not Jacketed...even though Jackete or Hard Ball would work of course, it is just not as friendly to the Arm as Lead is.


Lead ought to be soft, also.


I have no idea why anyone would not recommend Black Powder as a first choice.


It is very easy to clean up the Revolver with merely plain old Hot Soapy Water and a Bristle or Bronze Bore Brush and some paper towels, hold the Parts under the Hot Water for final rinse, in a way which also heats the parts, rub and wipe dry, Dowel Rod and a nub of Paper Towel to dry inside Bores and all while Hot...if need be, set in front of a small Space Heater then to finish things for Heat drying, then lube and re-assemble.



Only takes a few minutes, and is a nice way to stay in touch with the Arm personally.



I have heard reports of very early .45 Colt or other Metallic Cartriodges having a thin wafer of what was assumed to be Bees Wax or Bees Wax between Power and Ball.


This may not have been a universal practice however.


The Lube Wafers I make have been very good for both Lubing the Bullet, and for no Fouling issues.

The slight greyish film on the front of the Cylinder from 50 or 100 rounds of shooting, remains soft, is merely brushed away by the normal rotation of the Cylinder, and does not cause the Revolver to bind.


Also clean up is probably a lot easier with these being used, and none of the Powder by-products seem to adhere to any part of the Revolver with any tenacity, and for that matter would wipe off with Paper Toweling and no Hot Soapy Washing-Brushing even if one wanted.

No Leading to be seen either, even with velocities over the 1000 fps mark.
 
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The danger of static electricity and Black Powder comes not from the granulated powder that we use but from the dust created when the raw materials are ball milled before being mixed with water and granulated. As with many different types of dust, BP dust is easily ignited and once the dust gets going the bigger stuff is right behind it. Personally I've never noticed "Any" dust around my powder measure. After having the same concerns as you I finally "Read the directions" for my Lee powder measure and found the part where it says "Safe for all powders".

Regarding bullet lube, I've been using SPG scraped into the case mouth before seating a round ball. It's time consuming but it does appear to work. ClemBert pm'd me regarding Dash Caliber black powder bullets and I've got some on the way. Dash Caliber states that they use a lube created by the army in the 1860's but they don't give the formula or ingredients. My guess is that it contains mink oil and probably beeswax. I'll be using these bullets both for CB and cartridge if it works the way I think it will.

One other thing that I've figured out, at least with 45 Colt, is that I do not re-size the brass. I was having problems with excessive "Blow Back" in the cylinder that lead to a couple of issues. First it made the cylinder get so hot you could hardly touch it, not to mention it sooted the outside of the cylinder badly. Second, if the pressure is going backward, it ain't helping the projectile go forward. At this time I only have experience with 38 S&W and 45 Colt, but neither of these rounds need re-sizing but I do mic samples of the brass each time before I de-prime just to be sure they are going to fit. So far, no sizing needed.

Regarding powder, I started out using Goex then switched over to Swiss. It's been said that Swiss is slightly cleaner, my jury is still out on that one. Swiss is between 11 and 12 percent denser than Goex though which doesn't make a lot of difference unless you are trying to load a historically correct powder charge but....40gr of Black Powder in a 45 SAA will get your attention when it goes off and I've got a feeling that it's more than you need or want for Cowboy Action.

I will tell you that you are about to get hooked on Black Powder cartridge loading!!! I started out with 45 Colt and moved on to 38 S&W. I'm currently waiting on dies for 44 Mag/Spc (1895 Marlin) and 44 Russian for a new Schofield. So far I've been unsuccessful in talking a friend of mine into lending me his 45-70 die and a few brass to load for his Shiloh Sharps but I'm sure once he fires one he'll never put smokeless in it again.
 
Check out www.curtrich.com then captain baylor's ranger camp. Frontiers man for dummies talks to Cap and Ball, Black powder substitutes for dummies talks to frontier cartridge reloading.
 
I shoot Black powder in competitive matches and have probably shot probably 200 to 250 pounds of black powder. I have not used 777 as it is not legal to use in competition, so can not speak with authority about it. Pyrodex shows up ocasionally at the matches, but has proved to be a very inconsistant performer even within the same lot numbers. One container of Pyrodex will prove exceptionally accurate while the next will not. For that reason, I would not recommend Pyrodex.
Black powder is very easy to develop a load with as long as you are using one of the more popular brands. Goex, Schuetzen, and Swiss are all good powders with Swiss being my favorite.
When cleaning guns that have fired black, do not use cleaners blended for smokeless powder. You can buy cleaners intended for black, but I prefer my secret blend that is not gooey or smelly.
Those of you that shoot muzzle loaders may recognize the formula. I read about it in a muzzle loading artice and decided to try it with Black Powder cartridges. Works great and cuts through the various bullet lubes I have used.
All ingredients can be purchased at the grocery store.
I mix equal parts of Murphy's Oil soap, peroxide, and alchohol. You will have enough cleaner to mix over a quart of cleaner for less than $10. Because of the peroxide, wipe bore and various metal parts dry and run an oily patch down the bore and other metal parts. Any suitable gun oil will work, but I prefer Kroil.
 
Most Black powder lubes were and still are bees wax based. A good formula that works about as well as any is: 7-10% lanolin, ~10% olive oil, the rest bees wax.
CAUTION; Do not get bees wax hot enough while melting that it begins to off gas. At this point it is very flammable proves difficult to extinguish a fire.
If you use a double boiler, the melting and blending of ingredients is perfectly safe. A simple double boiler is a large pan with water on the stove with spacers between it and a smaller pan. The boiling water melt ingredients and not allow temperatures to too high.
 
I shoot Black powder in competitive matches and have probably shot probably 200 to 250 pounds of black powder. I have not used 777 as it is not legal to use in competition, so can not speak with authority about it. Pyrodex shows up ocasionally at the matches, but has proved to be a very inconsistant performer even within the same lot numbers. One container of Pyrodex will prove exceptionally accurate while the next will not. For that reason, I would not recommend Pyrodex.
Black powder is very easy to develop a load with as long as you are using one of the more popular brands. Goex, Schuetzen, and Swiss are all good powders with Swiss being my favorite.
When cleaning guns that have fired black, do not use cleaners blended for smokeless powder. You can buy cleaners intended for black, but I prefer my secret blend that is not gooey or smelly.
Those of you that shoot muzzle loaders may recognize the formula. I read about it in a muzzle loading artice and decided to try it with Black Powder cartridges. Works great and cuts through the various bullet lubes I have used.
All ingredients can be purchased at the grocery store.
I mix equal parts of Murphy's Oil soap, peroxide, and alchohol. You will have enough cleaner to mix over a quart of cleaner for less than $10. Because of the peroxide, wipe bore and various metal parts dry and run an oily patch down the bore and other metal parts. Any suitable gun oil will work, but I prefer Kroil.
 
static elec.

If you have not already seen this video clip concerning electrical sparks and BP, it makes interesting viewing.
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

For my BP loads - some .45 Colt, mostly .45/70 - I drop enough powder to get mild compression upon seating the bullet. For the 45/70, I use a lube "cookie" between the powder and the bullet (two 0.030" Walter's Wads with 1/8" beeswax between them. Also for the .45/70, I use unsized cases and a mild crimp to hold the bullet.
With the .45 Colt, I use ""Big Lube" bullets and SPG lube atop a single Walter's Wad.

Pete
 
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Pokyman said:
CAUTION; Do not get bees wax hot enough while melting that it begins to off gas. At this point it is very flammable proves difficult to extinguish a fire.
Click to expand...

And may we ask, "How did you learn this?"
 
Thanks for asking Foto Joe.

Fortunately for me I heard it first hand by a guy that buys unfiltered raw bees wax (still has the wings, legs, and other bee things in it) and then melts and filters all the unwanted stuff out. Seems as though he saved 9 cents a pound.
According to him he was not willing to use a double boiler because of cost to buy one. By the way, mine is home made and cost me about less than $10 when I went to Goodwill and bought two cake pans that would fit inside one another. But I digress.
Back to the story- After getting his cooker set up on the kitchen stove, he left the room for some reason and obviously waited too long to come back. He smelled wax fumes and went back to the kitchen to see the wax was on fire. Claims he used his fire extinguisher without success. I didn't ask him if he used the right chemical extinguisher or if when he activated it he blew burning wax all over the kitchen. With the help of the fire department all ended well if you don't count the fire damage in the kitchen or the house fairly well smoked up.
Seems to me a camp stove set up outside would have saved a lot of excitement and expense should things take a turn for the worse.
 
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Thanks for asking Foto Joe.

Fortunately for me I heard it first had by a guy that buys unfiltered raw bees wax (still has the wings, legs, and other bee things in it) and then melts and filters all the unwanted stuff out. Seems as though he saved 9 cents a pound.
According to him he was not willing to use a double boiler because of cost to buy one. By the way, mine is home made and cost me about less than $10 when I went to Goodwill and bought two cake pans that would fit inside one another. But I digress.
Back to the story- After getting his cooker set up on the kitchen stove, he left the room for some reason and obviously waited too long to come back. He smelled wax fumes and went back to the kitchen to see the wax was on fire. Claims he used his fire extinguisher without success. I didn't ask him if he used the right chemical extinguisher or if when he activated it he blew burning wax all over the kitchen. With the help of the fire department all ended well if you don't count the fire damage in the kitchen or the house fairly well smoked up.
Seems to me a camp stove set up outside would have saved a lot of excitement and expense should things take a turn for the worse.
 
Thanks guys, I'm feeling much more confident that I don't need to worry as much as I'd first thought about using a progressive loading machine.

One other question if I may. If I were to boil the lube intended for smokeless powder use out of the bullets could I opt for a BP lube pill under the bullet instead of having to get a bullet lube gizmo?
 
I just run strips of regular Paper Towel, through the molten Bee's Wax and Olive Oil mixture ( I have been doing it by feel and did not abide any strict proportions but only a little Olive Oil is enough, and more than a little is too much)...let them cool, then cut out 'Discs' with a Holw Punch for the size or Caliber needed.


The then roughly .040 Thousands thick Lube Wafer goes between Powder and Ball or Bullet.


For Metallic Cartridge or Cap & Ball, this then displaces very little powder, yet supplies all the Lube the Arm needs for eliminating Leading and Fouling.


Easy to make, good smelling, I just use a Tin Can set into some spacers in a larger Saucepan of Water, to prepare/melt the Mixture, barely simmering the Water, easy and safe to do indoors on a Hot Plate or Kitchen Stove.


Smooth cut End Grain of a Pine or any other Board, is best for backing when cutting out the Wafers with a Hole Punch or Gasket Hole Punch.


The less Olive Oil, the harder the result, which while still relatively soft, has not shown any of the Wafers sticking together here in Summer with the Wafers being kept in a small Tin Box.


A little Carnuba could be added also, to make it harder even, but I was happy with them as they were.


Too much Olive Oil would make the Wafers sticky or too soft for good storage if cutting them out in advance.
 
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Using a luberisizer (bullet lube gizmo) is not necessary. If your bullets are already sized to the correct dimension, you can pan lube your bullets.
All that is needed is to stand your bullets base side flat on the bottom of a pan. Having your bullets room temperature or slightly higher helps the lube from setting up too fast around your bullets.Pour enough melted lube into the pan to cover the grease grooves of the bullet. Wait for the lube to cool and harden. Carefully work the brick of lube and bullets out of the pan. I like to use a tupperware type pan because they are flexible. I use my thumb to push on the nose of the bullet to shear it out of the lube. With a little practice you will be able to tell when the lube is about the right temperature to do this. If it is too cold the bullets are difficult to push out of the brick. When the bullets are pushed out of the brick of lube, they look like they have been professionally done. Bullets and lube are nice and neat with just the right amount of lube on them.
The previous gents post about using beeswax and olive oil is pretty accurate, but I add about 10% lanolin. The lanolin makes the lube sticky and helps the lube to stick to the bullet long enough to get it in the case.
 
I thought about using Lanolin, even sent off for some and did one batch of 'Wafers', but for the Wafers, with Black Powder or '777', it is better without it, since there is no need for the 'sticky' aspect, unless wishing to adhere a Wafer to the base of a Bullet going into a Cartridge loaded with say, "UNIQUE" or some other Smokelsss, where there is an air gap between Bullet and Powder.

I did try some .45 Colt that way, and, far as I know the Wafers stayed on the Bullet Base, but, then again, how would I know if they fell off inside the Cartridge?

Lol...but no matter either way relly, they would still work pretty well I imagine.
 
I am sure you have already thought of this, but in case you haven't heres another idea on how to load what I call lube wads. That is wads placed between the bullet and powder.
When I use this type of wad, before inserting the bullet into the case I will press the case mouth into a strip of lube that is the thickness desired. The case will cut a disc of lube that is the same dia. as the case. After that step I load the bullet into the case. For this not to be a little messy it is necessary that the lube be somewhat cold so that it is stiff and cuts cleanly. I recommend putting a card wad against the powder before inserting the lube wad. This will help keep the lube from soaking into the powder.
I have no experience with 777 so don't know how your idea will work concerning lube wads and unlubed bullets.
I tried the same concept with black powder with poor success. The bore was caked with hard powder fouling and heavy bore leading as well after just a few shots.
I have used lube wads with paper patched bullets with amazing accuracy if you don't shoot too many rounds between cleaning.
Paper patching can be used with the firearm replica's being produced today. It is not as easy to get them to shoot as well as an original designed to shoot paper patched bullets. If you find an original rifle, that looks like the riflings are really shallow chances are it was meant to shoot paper patch bullets. Barrels intended to shoot paper patch bullets have riflings that are only ~.002 deep.
 
Hi Pokyman,


I have not had any Muzzle Loading Rifle experience, but, the 'Lube Wafers' I make are very convenient for Cap & Ball Revolver, where one does not have a Cartridge Case to use as an extempore 'cutter' for making a Wafer or Disc.


Hence, my use of strips of regular Paper Towel, to empregnate with the Bees Wax and Olive Oil mixture.


I have had no fouling or build ups with this, and what material there is for combustion by-products, is soft and wipes away easily.

What Lube ingredients were you iusing which had disappointed in that regard?
 
My apologies. For some reason I thought we were talking about loading metallic cartridges. The word dim bulb may apply here.
The cartridges that I have used a lube wad which held ~90 gr. of black powder. The rifle has a 30 inch barrel. That much powder produces a lot of heat and fouling for the grease wad to deal with.
I was using the bees wax, olive oil, lanolin formula.
 
cookie

. For this not to be a little messy it is necessary that the lube be somewhat cold so that it is stiff and cuts cleanly. I recommend putting a card wad against the powder before inserting the lube wad. This will help keep the lube from soaking into the powder.
Click to expand...

Yep. What you are describing is, almost, a grease cookie. Add one more card wad between the bullet's base and the lube and you have a "cookie". The second wad prevents the lubed wad from sticking to the base of the bullet and disturbing its flight.
There are all sorts of formula for bullet lubes - such as have been described here - lubes for this application, though, are generally simpler; the simplest (and very effective) for a grease cookie is pure beeswax. Easy to handle and it smells nice. No mixing, no extra work. You get a sheet of it (from beekeeper's supplies or candlemakers) and you insert a card wad, press one or two thicknesses of wax into the case mouth (no mess), add the second wad, seat the bullet.
Pete
 
Just a note to let you guys know that I'm still here and that I'll be saving all this great info for when my new reloading and gun tinkering bench is set up sometime late this winter or early spring.
 
Hi Pokyman,


Well, the little 'Wafers' I make appear to work very well in Black Powder, '777'' or other Metallic Cartridge or Cap & Ball Revolver, either way.


What I meant to say, was that I use a Gasket Hole Punch to cut out the Wafer/Discs, for either application.


Being these are strips of Paper Towel, run through the hot molten Wax mix then cooled, a Cartridge Case being used as a 'cutter' could not work well anyway.


I see no reason why these would not work splendidly in Rifle, Single Shot Pistol or Shotgun, for that matter...whether Muzzle Loading or Black Powder Metallic Cartridge.



If one needed more Lube than one Wafer holds, one could just use two Wafers.


This alleviates the need to Lubricate the Bullets directly, as in using a Lube Sizer or Cake Pan method, since the Lube blows by in the earliest moment, and then follows, each Shot...leaving a film for the Next shot to have.


I last shot my WALKER quite a few monts ago, and have not cleaned it yet, and it sits here as perfect as can be, with no hint of rust anywhere...this after about 100 odd rounds of BP.


Granted, I am in a relatively arid clime, but, I have seen rust appear here before on BP Arms if I was not prompt in cleaning them.


So the little Wafers also seem to leave a fine, barely noticible, and not in any way bothersome film of Bees Wax, which seems to keep things nice even if I do not clean them promptly.
 
I am in a relatively arid clime
Click to expand...

You sure aren't kidding about that. From what you describe, it must be dry as a bone. If I don't clean my guns here and now, I get rust within the day.
Where is the dry place?
Pete
 
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