Loadout

[westernrover]

I used to be proud of the fact that if I had money in my hand, my pockets were empty -- not that I was poor, but that I didn't carry junk around with me. If I had cash. What more did I need?

That changed with what I would describe as a sort of Walter Mitty like fantasy. I needed a pocket knife to cut through the ropes I could be bound with as a hostage. I needed a lighter to light the way through a dark cave. A compass to find my direction if I should encounter a thick fog bank off the coast. And a driver's license, proof of insurance, credit card and those other mundane things.

I began to carry a concealed firearm. Whether that was part of the "secret life" or a more practical necessity, I'm not sure. Certainly, people aren't irrational for carrying. It has most definitely proven to be a practical necessity and while the occasion to need it doesn't occur often, when it does, there is nothing else that will do. Nevertheless, I'm not convinced that all the choices I make around the particulars of what I carry aren't also influenced by the "secret life."

Whatever the true motivation for the things I carry are, I don't carry any of them as a talisman. I've endeavored to acquire the skills to be expert with all of them, and my firearm is no exception. While the classes and expert trainers have helped me acquire the skills and understanding I need to know when, why, and how to operate it, I've also had to figure out how to carry it and keep it concealed within the context of my other life choices like my activities and wardrobe.

I learned early on that carrying a gun comes with some baggage -- like holsters, belts, magazines, spare ammo, and so on. They also added some things to the first aid kits in my vehicles and backpacks -- tourniquets, hemostatics, chest seals, and so on. It's not the gun that made those things necessary, but it was the gun that made me aware that things happen to people that are worse than small cuts and minor illness that could be treated with a band-aid and some aspirin. I actually traveled out of state to attend premier training in wilderness first aid and I maintain my certifications in that, cpr, aed, and the epi-pen. Those with even more training as EMTs or Paramedics will understand that as your skills increase, so do the contents of your kits.

[Ppst edited to delete text not within the scope of ST&T]

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Its good to be prepared.
Its also good to not be the guy they look at and think "Lets shoot that guy and take his sweet gear."

 

[The Night Rider]

Mas has no such trouble with it, though I do think he looks better in a blazer with a tie --

Everyone looks better in a Blazer and Tie.

My "Load Out" comes out of a long history of needing something and not having it.

I'm not going to tell the story behind everything I carry but as an example I was working in Katy Texas ( if any of you ever go to the post office in Katy Texas I helped build that in 1984, the one on Lawndale in Houston too.) in 1984 and for whatever reason my nose started running. I couldn't find a tissue so I asked the site foreman if I could use one of his paper towels. He told me to kiss his ssa and threw me out of his office. From that day to this I have never left home without a handkerchief.

That's the basic story behind everything I carry. I got caught short and I decided never to get caught short again.

The only (IMO) unusual thing I carry is I never leave home without water. We have a Berkey and after drinking from that everything else tastes off and water costs 3 bucks a bottle at the gym. I also carry my personal training plan in my fanny pack just because I'm going to the gym anyway.

Other than that

Gun
Reload
OC
Flashlight
SAK
Phone
Handkerchief.
Charging cable.
Dynamite (just wanted to see who was paying attention)

 

[westernrover]

I heard the patent on Dynamite makes it too costly, so I still carry regular blasting powder.
The thing you seem to be missing is a light. You don't want to get caught out having to rub two sticks together just to light your fuse.
I stash Bics and ferro rods in packs and vehicles, but I carry a Zippo with a butane conversion (otherwise it would dry out too often).
Surprisingly, Mas also didn't mention this essential of the civilized man, probably because he was conscientious about the habit of his that everyone who knows him is aware of.

While the EDC items are of perennial interest, I started this thread with them in order to transition into the kinds of loadout that most people don't consider "everyday." Is there a rational progression toward plate carriers or other body armor, helmets, night-vision, and 30-round magazine pouches? Or are those things strictly the domain of infantry and SWAT? John uses the phrase, "for LARPing civilians," but I think he is just deflecting criticism while addressing his audience's sincere interest and avoiding a discussion about whether it's rational for a civilian to possess this gear and if so, why. I'm sure some people have the rationale that "if you have to ask, then you won't understand," and they expect you to just put your head back in the sand.

I don't wear a cap backwards and have a tattoo of a punisher skull on my calf, but I also don't think that plate carriers are just to fit stereotypes. There are "less than overt" versions of most of the gear mentioned in these "full kit" videos. I understand that once you sling an AR-15, you've gone "overt," but I don't think the AR is a necessary accompaniment to this gear. I think it makes sense that before a person buys a sixth or seventh defensive firearm, that they get some body armor. Besides a vest or plate carrier, I've always thought that helmets were an essential piece of equipment. While not appropriate for most people's everyday wear, they go on and off very quickly and easily and they protect against a lot more threats than just direct fire from small arms. How about those frags dropped from the DJI drone that even your neighbor's kid has?

Night Vision is more of an enigma to me. For civilians, whether it is traditional IR amplified or thermal, I can certainly see it being applicable to predator hunting. For defensive use, it's harder to make the case for costly night vision vs. a simple weapon-mounted or handheld white light. I've witnessed Russians being mocked for fighting in Ukraine with only iron sights. In those circumstances, it seems like an unfair disadvantage to be so severely disabled by something as commonplace and expected as the dark. I don't have any nods or nvg, no scope, binocular or mono, nothing. The Sentinel product that John Lovell shows off is discontinued but originally sold 10 years ago for about $7700. I'm not really excited about tying up that much capital in something that will go obsolete. I am convinced that ammo will hold its value better, provided I don't shoot it.

 

[The Night Rider]

I heard the patent on Dynamite makes it too costly, so I still carry regular blasting powder.

You probably know this but the money that Alfred Nobel made off of dynamite is what funds the Nobel Prize.

The thing you seem to be missing is a light. You don't want to get caught out having to rub two sticks together just to light your fuse.

I'm retired and I spend the majority of my life within 5 miles of my home.

When I go hiking out here

I have the means to make fire. I don't get off the pavement unless I'm ready to spend the night out there

While the EDC items are of perennial interest, I started this thread with them in order to transition into the kinds of loadout that most people don't consider "everyday." Is there a rational progression toward plate carriers or other body armor, helmets, night-vision, and 30-round magazine pouches? Or are those things strictly the domain of infantry and SWAT?

They're the domain of Field Artillery too but I traded all that stuff for a DD-214 a long time ago.

Whether it's rational for a civilian to possess this gear and if so, why.

If a civilian once that equipment more power to them, I've got no problem with it. It's not something I'm interested in but if that's what you're into go for it.

I think it makes sense that before a person buys a sixth or seventh defensive firearm, that they get some body armor. Besides a vest or plate carrier, I've always thought that helmets were an essential piece of equipment.

I don't think I even own six firearms. And I think most of the people that participate in this forum would be better off buying a membership to Planet Fitness than another gun and certainly than buying armor.

Night Vision is more of an enigma to me. For civilians, whether it is traditional IR amplified or thermal, I can certainly see it being applicable to predator hunting. For defensive use, it's harder to make the case for costly night vision vs. a simple weapon-mounted or handheld white light. I've witnessed Russians being mocked for fighting in Ukraine with only iron sights. In those circumstances, it seems like an unfair disadvantage to be so severely disabled by something as commonplace and expected as the dark. I don't have any nods or nvg, no scope, binocular or mono, nothing. The Sentinel product that John Lovell shows off is discontinued but originally sold 10 years ago for about $7700. I'm not really excited about tying up that much capital in something that will go obsolete. I am convinced that ammo will hold its value better, provided I don't shoot it.

Again, most of the members here have more to fear from heart disease than marauding Russians or Rogue SWAT teams.

Hitting the gym regularly will do more to ensure a long life then acquiring the loadout for an 11 Bravo

 

[armoredman]

Oh, don't I know it - got way too many extra pounds...I have armor, but I need to lose some poundage to make it fit right. I also really don't know what I might use it for, but I have it, (it was a gift), and there is that. I have my issued Dept armor, but it's kinda weak.
Night vision would be wonderful, even if just checking out my area after dark, (rural area, not much light), but the cost is insane for a guy like me.

 

[westernrover]

You probably know this but the money that Alfred Nobel made off of dynamite is what funds the Nobel Prize.

Yes, and because the Giant Powder Company, the exclusive rights-holder for Nobel's Dynamite in the US was charging too much for it and people continued to blow themselves up with raw nitroglycerin to save money (1866 — April 16, Nitroglycerin explosion Wells Fargo building, San Francisco, CA –15-20 – Deadliest American Disasters and Large-Loss-of-Life Events (usdeadlyevents.com)), it created an opportunity for Hercules powder in 1874. Hercules was a "giant slayer." DuPont acquired 43% of Hercules by 1876. The other major owners was Laflin & Rand. "Hercules Powder" (their version of Dynamite) was used to destroy San Francisco in 1906 following the earthquake. Popular history remembers the earthquake, but it was the subsequent fires that threatened to destroy most of the city. The Army, in its genius, and because it had ample amounts of Hercules Powder on hand (the Santa Cruz Powder Works was established nearby to provide blasting powder to the mines in California and Nevada while the Civil War was consuming the supply from the east, and subsequently moved across the San Pablo Bay from San Franciso to Hercules, California)... the Army decided the best way to fight the fires was to blow stuff up with Hercules Powder. They literally blew the hell out of the city with explosives, hoping to create fire breaks. The actual result was igniting additional fires to consume whatever they didn't blow up.

Laflin & Rand, the owner of Hercules along with DuPont, had a license to produce Nobel's Ballistite smokeless powder, but the US Army saved money by choosing "Ruby" powder from Leonard Smokeless Powder Company which Laflin & Rand subsequently financed a reorganization of as American Smokeless. Their powder was the standard for the US from 1896 to 1908 -- which period included the development of the M1903 rifle and the .30-06 cartridge.

DuPont and L&R which DuPont subsequently acquired, cornered the explosives and propellant market in the US. DuPont was consequently broken up under the Sherman Act. The breakup of DuPont resulted in Atlas Powder Company producing the explosives and Hercules producing the smokeless propellants.

Ironically, Richard Heck received the Nobel Prize in 2010 for his discovery and development of the "Heck reaction" which he achieved as a result of his work on organometallic chemistry at Hercules.

Hercules was producing rocket motors by the 1960's. Hercules produced the motors for the Minuteman, Minuteman II and III, Poseidon and Polaris missiles as well as the boosters for the Titan. This portion of the business would be sold to Alliant Techsystems (ATK)

Of course, we're most familiar with Hercules 2400, Bullseye, Red Dot, Herco, Blue Dot and other Hercules propellants, which at one point also came under the "Alliant" brand, but are now distributed by Vista Outdoor which spun out of ATK in 2001 after the merger with Orbital Sciences.

 

[westernrover]

I don't think I even own six firearms. And I think most of the people that participate in this forum would be better off buying a membership to Planet Fitness than another gun and certainly than buying armor.

I have a similarly small number of them, and while I'm not normally a gym rat, I've been going three times a week lately since my dog has become disabled with age and the snow and storms preclude cycling. I ought to be skiing while the snow is good, but I've lacked motivation. Besides that, the gym is more useful for my sons. No one in my family is overweight or unfit, but we could all gain some strength.

Again, most of the members here have more to fear from heart disease than marauding Russians or Rogue SWAT teams.

Hitting the gym regularly will do more to ensure a long life then acquiring the loadout for an 11 Bravo

It's easy to make light of the scenarios that seem necessary to justify this gear for being zany and improbable. I think some people who choose to acquire it just suspend any requirement to justify it and fall back on "better to have and not need..." On the other hand, if you backpack and hunt, you probably have carried everything in the loadouts described except the body armor, helmet and nods. Your gear was probably just in a different style. I've already described how I would use body armor, helmet and nods if I had them -- I'd choose a less-than-overt style, but I suppose that the difference between that and what these guys are doing is like concealed carry vs. open carry.

 

[The Night Rider]

I have a similarly small number of them, and while I'm not normally a gym rat, I've been going three times a week lately since my dog has become disabled with age and the snow and storms preclude cycling. I ought to be skiing while the snow is good, but I've lacked motivation. Besides that, the gym is more useful for my sons. No one in my family is overweight or unfit, but we could all gain some strength.




It's easy to make light of the scenarios that seem necessary to justify this gear for being zany and improbable. I think some people who choose to acquire it just suspend any requirement to justify it and fall back on "better to have and not need..." On the other hand, if you backpack and hunt, you probably have carried everything in the loadouts described except the body armor, helmet and nods. Your gear was probably just in a different style. I've already described how I would use body armor, helmet and nods if I had them -- I'd choose a less-than-overt style, but I suppose that the difference between that and what these guys are doing is like concealed carry vs. open carry.

I'm sorry, but any situation that I would be in that would require body armor a helmet and NOGs is extremely improbable. To quote Lieutenant Savik "The odds are vanishing small."

So acquiring that equipment is extremely low on my list of priorities. Body armor is worthless unless you wear it all the time. I had a job where I had to wear body armor all the time 10 to 12 hours a day I hated it. I'm not ever doing it again.

As I said in an earlier post I got rid of all that stuff when I turned in my TA-50. It is so low on my priority list that I would literally have to win the Powerball and be looking for things to spend money on before I bought it

 

[shafter]

Barring a Ukraine type situation, or other similar unrest, night vision, body armor, helmets, vehicle loadouts, etc are extremely unlikely to be used. By all means buy them if you wish, but reality is that we don't choose the time or the place of the fight and we fight in the physical condition we are in, with the skills we have, and the weapon that is currently strapped to our belt.

Typically armor is something that one uses in conjunction with a uniformed unit. Aside from that discretion is typically the best route otherwise you just become the guy who gets taken out first.

 

[bdickens]

Good God almighty....

 

[westernrover]

I don't see how anyone could miss the usefulness of body armor. If I had it, I would certainly never go to a public range without wearing it. Instead, I simply do not go to public ranges unless it's necessary to attend a class or pass a qualification.

 

[westernrover]

If I was part of my church's volunteer security team, I would certainly wear concealable IIIA armor while I was serving in that function several times a week.

 

[westernrover]

I don't think plate carriers are worthless unless worn all the time. If I inhabited a workplace, I would want one in the office where I worked that I could dawn in the event an active shooter situation arose. Some years ago, I did work in an office where about 900 other people worked. The local Sheriff SWAT team practiced active-shooter drills at that location at least once a year. Why wouldn't I want to throw some plates on before I evacuated?

 

[Jeff White]

Why wouldn't I want to throw some plates on before I evacuated?

Being misidentified as the shooter is one reason.

I don't see how anyone could miss the usefulness of body armor.

I wore it for a minimum of 8 hours a day every workday. When you balance the discomfort with the chance of actually needing it if you don’t work in a profession or location where the threat is high you will find it’s not worth it.

If you are going to keep it by the bed to kit up before you go check out things that go bump in the night I suggest you rehearse it by having someone wake you from a sound sleep enough times that it becomes something you do without thinking.

I have all of my kit from my military and LE career. I kitted up exactly 4 times since I retired, that’s when I assisted running the shoot house for my former agency.

 

[shafter]

As others have said, unless you need it for work armor gets old real quick. It's heavy and it affects the way the rest of your kit is worn. It takes a lot of adjustment and reps for slings to stop catching on stuff etc. External soft carriers aren't bad but even they get hot in the summer.

If I was evacuating from an active shooter I would want empty hands and absolutely nothing that could make me be mistaken for the shooter. I think visible plates would get a lot of guns pointed your way and who knows whether they'll be cool headed or nervous.

 

[westernrover]

n/m

 

[The Night Rider]

n/m

If you put forth an idea and no one agrees with you that's something you generally need to think about

 

[hso]

Whether that was part of the "secret life"

https://learning.hccs.edu/faculty/s...et-life-of-walter-mitty-by-james-thurber/view

Most of us are subject to the siren song of the "secret life". While dreams and aspirations, and hope may spur us on to greater heights, in reality escapism leads to wasted money and time. Getting medical training like WFR is priceless because it can give you the skills and knowledge to help others as well as yourself. That's a world of difference from being a medic or EMT or trauma surgeon. Learning self-defense, to handle a defensive firearm when threatened, to respond to a threat are all good, but they should never confuse anyone for a moment that they're more than what they're intended.

 

[Old Dog]

I'm not sure what this thread is really about.

I have no secret Walter Mitty life, nor do I do LARP. Had a good run in the military and as a first responder and tac team dude, now I'm enjoying getting old. But I do have level IV plates for myself, and the wife requested a set herself, so I indulged her. I hate plates (I've worn various types of body armor for at least forty years) and don't anticipate needing them unless we face some type of apocalyptic event, but we have trained wearing them. On the subject of NODs/NVGs, if you can afford them, go for it. They're fun to take on camping trips or when you're trekking out to your tree stand or deer blind before the sun comes up, the kids love trying them out and I used 'em occasion for checking out what wildlife may be out behind my property (we have many coyotes and bear in the neighborhood and folks close by have had livestock taken by cougars). Is this stuff I throw in my "bug-out bag" or keep in my truck? Nope. But as our family continues to evolve into almost full-on prepper mode, better to have it and not need it...

 

[hso]

I heard the patent on Dynamite makes it too costly, so I still carry regular blasting powder.

What are you carrying blasting powder for and where?

 

[The Night Rider]

What are you carrying blasting powder for and where?

Dude, it was a joke. Even I got it.

 

[The Night Rider]

I really want to make an intelligent contribution to this discussion buy all I can really do is restate my original thesis.

If you can afford body armor, a helmet and NOGs and you think that they're a valuable addition to your equipment then by all means you should be able to buy them.

I don't have unlimited means and my priorities are different. I would much rather spend that money on something I'm far more likely to use. I would much rather spend that money on ammunition, practice and training. I'm positive that I would get a greater return on investment doing that.

There's really nothing else I can add to this discussion. Enjoy your day

 

[hso]

spend that money on ammunition, practice and training. I'm positive that I would get a greater return on investment doing that.

100% the best thing to do first. Then build your gear up from the basic start used to complete those courses adding gear in greater variety and expense as you can afford to and as you train with it.

 

[Elkins45]

Nobody carries pocket sand?