Local training class forbids serpa holsters

[toivo]

Wouldn't happen to be Rochester Personal Defense would it? 'cause that's who the customer told me had banned them.

No, but it's another trainer in that same vicinity.

 

[WoofersInc]

Found this on the Serpas. Others are talking about them.

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?99676-SERPA-Issue-Compilation

 

[wickedsprint]

A local LEO showed me a potential retention weakness his previous Army unit discovered.

It was found that the holster could easily be ripped from the mounting bracket (rips screws right out of the plastic).

Not sure what generation serpa they discovered this on.

 

[EddieNFL]

1. How many think the Serpa is unsafe?

2. How many think a condition one SA is unsafe?

I'm thinking most that answer affirmative to one will respond likewise for the other.

No matter the product we want the manufacturer to protect us from ourselves. We now have a car that can park itself. Maybe someone could design a firearm that fires without human interaction...for the safety of children.

 

[psyopspec]

All of you who use them for actual carry need to think long and hard about what might happen during a high-stress situation where you're not thinking about your draw and instead using gross muscle movements.

Like Bob, I used a SERPA for 2 tours in Afghanistan. No issues through mud, snow, rain, hitting the deck, crawling, etc. I've never been a cop, but I'm relatively confident that those 2 tours covered harsher environmental conditions than most police will be exposed to in the course of an average career. That holster never failed.

As for what happened during draws under stress, see my sig line. YMMV.

Further, the only "proof" that the holsters are bad is a relatively small list of places that don't welcome them, and a Youtube video where a man shoots himself and admits that it was his fault, though a SERPA is present.

 

[Owen]

I told the customer (and he knew it was purely my personal opinion) that I wouldn't pay money to a company/ trainer that told me what holster I could and couldn't use, rather than being able to train someone no matter what holster they'd like to use

Then you won't be going to many schools. I have yet to go to a school that allows shoulder holdters or SOB.

If you follow through, your finger will end up on the frame above the trigger where it belongs. The direction of the pressure is inward toward the side of the pistol, not downard or back toward the trigger

Only if you keep your finger straight. If you have longish fingers, and press the button with your fingertip, (like every other button you push in life) the tendency is for the trigger finger to turn inward somewhat.

I've now investigated 3 incidents with this holster where the shooter shot themselves in the leg, on the draw. These were not untrained individuals by any measure of the word.

 

[Bovice]

The club I shoot IDPA at does not allow SERPA lock holsters. I think it's a good idea.

 

[jem375]

Also some of these trainers don't want you to train with a crossdraw holster which is what I wear most of the time,especially if you are in a vehicle travelling in a bad area. I also have a Serpa holster and that makes me a problem for them also. They are among the most over paid professionals.

 

[hoohaa310]

The club I shoot IDPA at does not allow SERPA lock holsters. I think it's a good idea.

Care to elaborate? Why do you think its a good move?

Then you won't be going to many schools. I have yet to go to a school that allows shoulder holdters or SOB.

I guess not.

They are among the most over paid professionals.

The shooting industry as a whole is too tied up with things like "oh, well Massad Ayoob said THIS so that's why I do that"

or


"the guys at frontsite told me this...."



EVERY person has different hands, they're going to hold a gun differently, draw differently and overall have experiences with every piece of equipment.




Personally, I think situations like this wouldn't happen if people weren't so caught up with shaving off 1/4 second of their draw times like they're in the olympics. Sure you wanna get your gun out as fast as possible, but I've always held the belief that "slow is smooth, smooth is fast." If you start slow with a Black hawk serpa style holster and practice a slow draw 1000 times, graduate up to a slightly faster paced draw 1000 times, and eventually work your way up to full speed I doubt you'd EVER experience a problem like the annecdotal youtube evidence has shown.



If these holsters are so "unsafe" I wonder how much evidence we'll find of Marines and Soldiers experiencing similar problems. Or police officers. I have yet to see one piece of evidence when an actual professional shot himself while using one of these holsters. Classroom =/= real world.

 

[Gtimothy]

Seem to me if you're taking a defensive training course, the instructors should be training their students to use the equipment they, the students, choose to use. If there are inherent flaws with a particular piece of equipment, point them out to the owner and then train around it! Or, if warranted, suggest an alternative. To ban a particular holster without a valid reason, other than the possibility of AD, doesn't make sense.

Training, and keeping your "booger hook" off the trigger, go a LONG way in preventing AD/ND's!

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

They are among the most over paid professionals.

Wait... Firearms instructors are overpaid?

If you start slow with a Black hawk serpa style holster and practice a slow draw 1000 times, graduate up to a slightly faster paced draw 1000 times, and eventually work your way up to full speed I doubt you'd EVER experience a problem like the annecdotal youtube evidence has show

If I knew that my students had done 2,000 practice draws with their firearm before coming to class, fine. In reality though, when you start talking draw practice most peoples faces go blank. Of course they can get their gun out of a holster... why should they ever practice that....

If these holsters are so "unsafe" I wonder how much evidence we'll find of Marines and Soldiers experiencing similar problems. Or police officers. I have yet to see one piece of evidence when an actual professional shot himself while using one of these holsters.

As for Soldiers and Marines, they are all carrying the M9, which is almost impossible to ND from a hammer down position.

As for law enforcement, FLETC banned the serpa after LEO personnel ND'd with them.

The bans on the SERPA aren't based on anecdotal evidence, but real ND events.

To ban a particular holster without a valid reason, other than the possibility of AD, doesn't make sense.

There's a very valid reason, it's called: Insurance Premiums.

There are also certain firearms I won't let you train with. As an instructor, I assume a huge amount of liability while you are in my class. It is my obligation to negate as much risk as possible, and that includes prohibiting equipment that posses a potential risk, either though a faulty design or the necessity of high levels of training that I can't verify.

 

[Owen]

The point of training is to make mistakes when it doesn't matter, so you don't make them when it does matter. If you aren't making mistakes in training, then you aren't training, you're practicing.

Using a piece of equipment that punishes you with a GSW when you make a mistake, and, in fact, sets up the conditions for that mistake is just a bad idea.

 

[hoohaa310]

There are also certain firearms I won't let you train with.

Maybe the reason you find this to be true

Quote:
Originally Posted by jem375
They are among the most over paid professionals.


Wait... Firearms instructors are overpaid?

 

[Drail]

Overpaid, opinionated and fully convinced that the latest trend is the best. On the "gross motor skills" nonsense, people who have problems with "losing" fine motor skills need serious training and probably shouldn't be allowed to operate motor vehicles or weed eaters or chain saws until they pull their head out of the sand.

 

[Skribs]

I've never been a firearms instructer, but I have been a mentor in other places, both at work and in the online gaming community. I can tell you that I've learned the difference between "what the user wants" and "what does and doesn't work". I can't speak specifically on the SERPA, but I can say that it is the instructor's perogative to decide what falls into which category. It is the client's choice whether to go with that instructor or choose a different one.

Typically, at least if the instructor isn't an egotistical maniac, if you ask "why can't I use ____", you can get an answer.

 

[mljdeckard]

I agree entirely with the above sentiments in that, for every foolproof system, there is a fool out there trying to make a name for himself. The people who blow their toes off with Serpas are likely to be the same guys who would find a way to do it no matter what holster they are using.

I also used one on deployment, and right now the vest I use when I ride ATVs has one on the front for my 1911.

 

[drsfmd]

Seem to me if you're taking a defensive training course, the instructors should be training their students to use the equipment they, the students, choose to use. If there are inherent flaws with a particular piece of equipment, point them out to the owner and then train around it!

Gotta disagree. Many people choose bad holsters because they see it on TV or they think it looks cool. If I were instructing professionally, *I'M* not going to be a party to someone injuring themselves or having an ND because of their poor equipment choices.

 

[tarakian]

I just took a CCW class from Rochester Personal Defense and they do not allow serpa holsters. Here is their reasoning. I have no problem with them deciding what is allowed in their classes. There were enough people in the class who seemed completely stumped with how to handle a firearm that adding any more potential danger would be a bad idea. I have no experience with serpa holsters and to each there own. But in a group environment where it might be someone else that has to pay the price for lack of training, stupidity,...; it is up to the instructor/training school to do as much as they can to eliminate potential hazards. They also don't allow race guns/holsters, cross draw, or shoulder holsters.

 

[crossrhodes]

Oh crap

Marines and FLETC mentioned in the same sentence....don't even compare please. Been involved in both and will stick with the serpa. Hammer cocked or hammer down it don't matter...train train and then train some more.

 

[Destructo6]

What FLETC are you talking about? The US Border Patrol Academy, at FLETC in Artesia, issues the SERPA holster for the P2000. They are certainly not prohibited.

I've been using a SERPA for 4 or more years, have qualified thousands of people using the same holster, and have not seen any such issue. Some of those people could barely (sometimes not) qualify, but had no trouble getting out of and back in the holster safely.

The issues I've seen are:

• 1) the first SERPAs issued were made for the P30, not the P2000
  2) the 3 shank screw sockets can be pulled from the holster if over tightened on holsters made before 2009 or so
  3) you can loose the shank screws if you replace them without applying loctite and never check them.
  4) the pivot guard release lever spring can lose temper and go flat.

 

[fastbolt]

I think if a particular training class/venue want's to restrict the use of certain equipment for their classes, it's up to them. Prospective students that have the luxury of choice in spending their money can choose whether or not to attend.

While I don't care for the lock-equipped model of that holster, neither do I care what other instructors/students care to use. Ultimately, while it's an equipment issue (being equipment), it's a training issue (regarding proper use of the equipment).

If someone wants to practice the proper use of that holster a few thousand times to build unconscious proficiency with it (versus just conscious proficiency), that's their concern. The same thing is required when considering other carry method retention devices, after all, whether it's a thumb strap or a Level 3 duty holster, right?

Understanding any required maintenance is probably a good thing (as it is with any equipment).

Frequent inspection to make sure the holster is functioning normally is a good thing.

Using the holster (with a plastic training gun, or maybe a Sim marking gun) in a properly conducted & supervised Force-on-force training venue might reveal any problems on the part of the "user", too.

 

[Striker]

ND presentation considerations aside (I agree that this is primarily a training issue),
and with all due respect to Big Bad Bob and pysopspec observations, I can state from personal experience that a Serpa release can bind and prevent presentation of the pistol. (M9, thigh rig)

My experience mirriors Sturmgewehre's observations in his video, except that it occurerd in a dirt, rock, sand environment and not in snow. Took me a bit of time to clear the obstruction from behind the lever tab so that it would pivot.

For this reason I relegate any holster with Serpa style retention for informal, range use only.

YMMV

 

[Certaindeaf]

Most notable folk are self trained. From Gates to Einstein. It's not really the end of the world would you be denied a certain artifact and or "training".

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

What FLETC are you talking about? The US Border Patrol Academy, at FLETC in Artesia, issues the SERPA holster for the P2000. They are certainly not prohibited.

When did you last check with them? The prohibition was announce January this year.

Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 11:24 AM
Subject: Fw: ADVISORY Blackhawk SERPA Holster



FYI - FLETC and many OIGs have discontinued the use of the Blackhawk SERPA



Subject: FW: Officer Safety Bulletin: Blackhawk SERPA Auto Lock System Holster

A CITP student accidentally discharged his weapon into his thigh at FLETC/Glynco last week. He had purchased a Blackhawk SERPA Auto Lock System holster and was using it for the first time. In October of this year, an agent shot himself in the buttocks during a staff qualification at FLETC Cheltenham using a Blackhawk SERPA. USAF OSI has prohibited their personnel from purchasing or carrying this holster.

The below notice was disseminated last week to all 1811s in HHS OIG, and they have given me permission to share it with the IG community's 1811 population.




SPECIAL BULLETIN
National Training and Emergency Operations Branch
Officer Safety Bulletin



Good Afternoon,

In our efforts to continually stay abreast of issues relating to officer safety, the National Training and Emergency Operations Branch (NTEOB) routinely evaluates the law enforcement equipment issued to or carried by OI personnel.

Recently, one such piece of equipment, the Blackhawk SERPA Auto Lock System holster, has come under scrutiny due to safety concerns involving the design of its retention safety device. There have been several recent documented cases, involving law enforcement and civilian personnel, where unintentional discharges have occurred while weapons were being drawn from this holster. Many of these unintentional discharges have resulted in gunshot injuries to the officers/agents involved.

The SERPA is one of the only holster system designed to use the trigger finger to release the retention safety device. This method of releasing the safety device is contrary to our training methods and techniques, which emphasize attacking the holster from the "top down." In addition, this retention system is completely different from the standard thumb-break holsters currently issued by OI. While it is true that one of the Cardinal Rules of firearms safety was violated by the individual placing his or her finger on the trigger before they were ready to shoot, we believe that the design of the SERPA holster facilitates this action by engaging the trigger finger well before the individual is prepared to shoot.

In light of these events and in accordance with OI policy, specifically Part 2, Section 2, Subsection IV B, NTEOB is suspending all use of the Blackhawk SERPA Auto Lock System holster by OI agents acting in an official, on-duty capacity. NTEOB will thoroughly research and evaluate the safety and effectiveness of this holster system and report on its findings.

In the meantime, those agents who may be affected by this safety bulletin should be directed to utilize their standard agency-issued holster to secure their weapon on their person. As a reminder, new standard issue holsters were previously issued to all OI 1811s. This is the recommended holster system. Should agents wish to purchase a holster, they should be informed that all holsters have to be approved by National Firearms Coordinator/NTEOB, as per policy.

Thank you in advance for your assistance and cooperation.

Thank you.

 

[skt239]

I get it. More to go wrong and more chances of cleaning up some rookies blood. They can't assume everyone who comes through the door regularly trains with their equipment.