Long Range Rifle/Scope/PRS question(s)
- Thread starter Walkalong
- Start date
MistWolf said:
I have a bunch of the AW 10 round magazines and a bunch of 5 and 10 round AICS magazines, some AI branded and some Accurate-Mag. I also have an AI AW rifle and a Remington with CDI Precision bottom metal. I've noticed that the AICS mags won't lock into the AI rifle, and the AW mags won't lock into the CDI Precision bottom metal. The outside dimensions aren't a problem but it seems that the bump out that catches the mag release lever is located in a different position, not way off but enough to be an issue in terms of interchangeability (not sure if that's a real word). It makes sense that the top of the mag catch could be adjusted to work with both, but that would make one type loose once inserted.
Varminterror
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2016
- Messages
- 14,897
AICS mags ride higher in the rifle - against the same mag release - than AW’s.
I use AICS (steel branded and Magpul), AIAW, and Accurate Mags - the difference you’re seeing is really easy to fix. If a guy wants to be able to run both in the same rifle, you have to tweak the mag lips - shorten and narrow the lips on AICS, widen lips on AW’s to lift the rounds a little higher. If a guy wants to run ONE type, they can trim or weld onto the mag release lever to optimize around ONE type.
Varminterror said:
If the AICS mags ride higher why won't they lock into my AI AW? Oh wait, you're saying the the "bump out" sits a little lower so the feedlips are making contact with the bolt which prevents the magazine from seating properly. OK, that makes sense.
I suppose I could mess with the AICS mags to make them work in my AI but why? The AW mags have always fed so much better than the AI mags and I sure as heck wouldn't mess with them to work with AICS compatible bottom metal. The AI AW has to be the best if not one of the best feeding rifles on the planet. The AI AWM with the single stack mags is good but not up to the same level as the AI AW.
Varminterror
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2016
- Messages
- 14,897
Yup - #AW4lyf
Big7
Member
Why is that?
cdb1
Member
Because I think Bergara makes a higher quality rifle.
I finally got back out to the range after work today (Skipped out a bit early). I shot the Fed Berger 105 Hybrid, the Hornady 108 ELD, and the Hornady "Black" 105 BTHP. I shot one group of each left to right, then let the barrel cool a little bit while I picked up some range brass along the 100 yard benches. Then I dialed up .3 Mils, and right .1 Mils. After the first two shots of the Berger 105 Hybrid I knew something was amiss. I checked the turret and I had dialed down .3 Mils. *Sigh*. Oh well, finished the second set of groups.
It still prefers the Hornady 108 ELD over the Fed 105 Berger and shot one decent group with the "Black" 105 Gr BTHP.
The groups were not overly encouraging, but I have not shot a rifle seriously in a long time and I am still getting used to this rifle. I am having more shots where it feels right though, where recoil is straight back, shoulder and forend pressure is consistent, just feels right. Kind of like when you are out of practice and getting your baseball swing back, or your golf swing. You can feel when it is wrong as well as right.
I used the Bald Eagle front rest and an Edgewood rear bag. It was a bit tall and I had to kneel on the chair on sit on my heels, but it got me at a good height.
I wrote Berger 108, but they are 105s. Fed 105 Berger left, Hornady 108 ELD middle, Hornady "Black" 105 right.
After the groups it got really calm which was good for what I did next. I shot at a "Zombie" head with the Hornady Black.
Before I did this though I dialed the vertical back to 0, then up .3 Mil, then reset the turret to 0, as well as resetting the windage turret to 0. A nickle fits the slots in the cap holders perfectly.
I shot one shot at 0, then dialed up 1 Mil, held down 1 Mil, and shot again, then dialed up 2 Mil, held down 2 Mil, and shot again, and so on so forth until my last shot was dialed up 9 Mil and held down 9 Mil. I ran out of Hornady Black at that point, I had intended to dial back to 0 and shoot again, but the black was gone now and the five 108 ELDs I though I still had were gone. All I had was another box of the Fed which it didn't shoot as well and had a different vertical impact.
I could see that the first 6 were in the black, then 7 leaked out up top, then 8 leaked up further, I believe I let it get up from inconsistent hold and tightened up a hair and 9 was back down some but left a hair. Overall the group wasn't any worse than some of the five shot groups. There is some slant to it if you look at all of the shots, but don't know if this is a concern or just rando, after all the overall left to right isn't too bad.
Thoughts?
First six are four in a wad and two hanging out low left, then 7, 8, & 9 in the white.
Here are the scope turrets sighted in at 100 yards with the Hornady 108 ELD and Black. It will take more shooting than this to see if it really prefers one over the other, as well as me getting back in the groove. Well, actually it was a bit high at 100. Still tweaking. Need to clean it again.
I am out of the 105 "Black", have two boxes of the 108 ELD, and four boxes of the Berger 105s. I need to buy some more ammo.
It still prefers the Hornady 108 ELD over the Fed 105 Berger and shot one decent group with the "Black" 105 Gr BTHP.
The groups were not overly encouraging, but I have not shot a rifle seriously in a long time and I am still getting used to this rifle. I am having more shots where it feels right though, where recoil is straight back, shoulder and forend pressure is consistent, just feels right. Kind of like when you are out of practice and getting your baseball swing back, or your golf swing. You can feel when it is wrong as well as right.
I used the Bald Eagle front rest and an Edgewood rear bag. It was a bit tall and I had to kneel on the chair on sit on my heels, but it got me at a good height.
I wrote Berger 108, but they are 105s. Fed 105 Berger left, Hornady 108 ELD middle, Hornady "Black" 105 right.
After the groups it got really calm which was good for what I did next. I shot at a "Zombie" head with the Hornady Black.
Before I did this though I dialed the vertical back to 0, then up .3 Mil, then reset the turret to 0, as well as resetting the windage turret to 0. A nickle fits the slots in the cap holders perfectly.
I shot one shot at 0, then dialed up 1 Mil, held down 1 Mil, and shot again, then dialed up 2 Mil, held down 2 Mil, and shot again, and so on so forth until my last shot was dialed up 9 Mil and held down 9 Mil. I ran out of Hornady Black at that point, I had intended to dial back to 0 and shoot again, but the black was gone now and the five 108 ELDs I though I still had were gone. All I had was another box of the Fed which it didn't shoot as well and had a different vertical impact.
I could see that the first 6 were in the black, then 7 leaked out up top, then 8 leaked up further, I believe I let it get up from inconsistent hold and tightened up a hair and 9 was back down some but left a hair. Overall the group wasn't any worse than some of the five shot groups. There is some slant to it if you look at all of the shots, but don't know if this is a concern or just rando, after all the overall left to right isn't too bad.
Thoughts?
First six are four in a wad and two hanging out low left, then 7, 8, & 9 in the white.
Here are the scope turrets sighted in at 100 yards with the Hornady 108 ELD and Black. It will take more shooting than this to see if it really prefers one over the other, as well as me getting back in the groove. Well, actually it was a bit high at 100. Still tweaking. Need to clean it again.
I am out of the 105 "Black", have two boxes of the 108 ELD, and four boxes of the Berger 105s. I need to buy some more ammo.
Attachments
Last edited:
Not sure you can draw any conclusions on scope tracking based on the target. one way to do a scope tracking test is to get a yard stick (36") and hang it vertically. 36" is 10 mils at 100yds. if you can lock the rifle down in a vice then you can just track it like in this video:
or you an set up a yard stick vertically oriented, and place a .5" dot every 3.6" from bottom to top or hang a plum line and then draw it in. you want a straight vertical line that is 36" top to bottom with small targets located every 3.6". your aiming point is the bottom dot, always, and as you dial elevation, you can see how "true" it tracks. the left tilt could easily be because your scope isn't level for every shot, or because your scope tracks slightly left. I think if you use a tall target and dial up, you will see error more than if you hold on the reticle, because what you figured out is that your scope tracks close to the corresponding reticle marks, maybe not perfect. How certain are you that your point of aim was perfect L/R and U/D for shots 7-9? particularly as you get near the edge of the scope, there will be some distortion. My gun is a hammer, but I will easily screw that up on a large dot and a 9 shot string.
.
looking at your other targets, it seems your gun wants to group really nice and tight, but you are struggling to run it the way it wants to be run. the ELD groups both show 2 perfect .5" clover leafs, with a short flyer making it what, .7" and another making it a 1.5" group.
what size is the little square on those targets? is there a 1" reference, i'll post a few pics of group size comparison for you to mull over, i think you gun has real potential but it wants to be run in a certain way that you are trying to figure out
it sounds like you are still fighting with the rest/bag/bench combo and I can only imagine what that is doing to your groups.
or you an set up a yard stick vertically oriented, and place a .5" dot every 3.6" from bottom to top or hang a plum line and then draw it in. you want a straight vertical line that is 36" top to bottom with small targets located every 3.6". your aiming point is the bottom dot, always, and as you dial elevation, you can see how "true" it tracks. the left tilt could easily be because your scope isn't level for every shot, or because your scope tracks slightly left. I think if you use a tall target and dial up, you will see error more than if you hold on the reticle, because what you figured out is that your scope tracks close to the corresponding reticle marks, maybe not perfect. How certain are you that your point of aim was perfect L/R and U/D for shots 7-9? particularly as you get near the edge of the scope, there will be some distortion. My gun is a hammer, but I will easily screw that up on a large dot and a 9 shot string.
.
looking at your other targets, it seems your gun wants to group really nice and tight, but you are struggling to run it the way it wants to be run. the ELD groups both show 2 perfect .5" clover leafs, with a short flyer making it what, .7" and another making it a 1.5" group.
what size is the little square on those targets? is there a 1" reference, i'll post a few pics of group size comparison for you to mull over, i think you gun has real potential but it wants to be run in a certain way that you are trying to figure out
it sounds like you are still fighting with the rest/bag/bench combo and I can only imagine what that is doing to your groups.
Varminterror
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2016
- Messages
- 14,897
I really wanna see what your Seekins does with handloads - most of those hundred yard groups look like my 200 or 300yrd targets, shooting from a bipod in a bean field, not from a rest. I'd expect a bit better from the rifle in your hands, so I'm wondering if it might just be factory fodder?
Probably just me.
The P-Mag sucks. You can over insert it and it won't let the bolt forward. You can under insert it and (even "clicked in") and the bolt will ride over the rounds. The same dummy that dialed down instead up up forgot the AI AW mag, so I haven't tried it yet.
The reticle on the Bushnell has no numbers on the mil lines above the cross hair, and it would be nice if at least the first 3 or 4 did. Counting 9 with no numbers and I get lost easy.
Scope is nice and clear though. No complaints.
The P-Mag sucks. You can over insert it and it won't let the bolt forward. You can under insert it and (even "clicked in") and the bolt will ride over the rounds. The same dummy that dialed down instead up up forgot the AI AW mag, so I haven't tried it yet.
The reticle on the Bushnell has no numbers on the mil lines above the cross hair, and it would be nice if at least the first 3 or 4 did. Counting 9 with no numbers and I get lost easy.
Scope is nice and clear though. No complaints.
I am signed up for June 8th at Alabama Precision.
Almost went ahead and signed up for July 20th as well. Plenty of spots left yet in both.
Almost went ahead and signed up for July 20th as well. Plenty of spots left yet in both.
Varminterror
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2016
- Messages
- 14,897
If it makes anyone feel any better, I shot TERRIBLY at a regional PRS match where my wind calls were almost identical to my elevation corrections... The lowest hold I used all day was 20mph...
Varminterror
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2016
- Messages
- 14,897
It's not just the P-mags.
Open your bolt, insert the mag, and take a peak inside the ejection port at your bolt face and lugs. Even better if you have a DBM Rem 700 handy to compare side by side.
1) The Seekins lugs run 90degrees turned compared to standard 2 lug Rem 700 pattern rifles. This means the lugs are oriented up and down, rather than horizontally in the receiver. In other words, the lugs hang DOWN below the boltface. That's great for reliable pick up - it'll dig deep into a mag, especially stagger feed AIAW mags, to pick up the rounds, BUT it also means the mag feed lips must be wide enough to let the lug(s) pass through, else the bolt will crash on the mag. I would have to search to find it whether it was in our PM's (or those with another user), or in one of these threads, but I know I've mentioned that here a few times - the rotated lug design is a blessing and a curse, which requires some tweaking to the mags, regardless of brand or material.
2) The bolt body of the Seekins rifle is oversized and the bolt head diameter smaller than the body - so it has a step/shoulder at the front edge of the bolt body. Unfortunately, that also means the mag lips have to be low enough in the action to clear the bolt body - which wouldn't be a problem, except that it also means those 90degree lugs HAVE to reach farther down to pick up rounds. Even if we open the mag lips wide enough to clear the lugs (but not wide enough to lose grip on the rounds), we still have to worry about clearing the bolt body, else the shoulder will crash on the lips...
So tuning the mags for the Seekins design is a balancing act between having the lips trimmed down low enough and opened wide enough to clear the lugs and the bolt body, but keep them high enough and tight enough to retain the rounds in the mag.
"My Friend" screwed up on the first 10rnd Pmag HE tried to modify for the seekins will blast all 10 out of the top if you drop it - HE filed the inside edge of the lips to open them for the bolt lugs, before I, er, I mean... HE realized the next step would be crashing on the bolt body shoulder and then HE had to file them down to clear the bolt body too - so HE cut them OUT as well as DOWN... The result is that the lips have just the slightest tenuous grip on the top round, so if you bump it hard enough to let one slip, the next hits hard enough to overwhelm the lip and blast the whole thing empty. It was spectacular to watch when I, er, I mean MY FRIEND pulled that mag out of his back-up holster when another mag had failed. HE dropped it on the deck to get a different grip, it blasted all of my, er HIS backup rounds across the platform like a water-balloon, so in a fit of frustration, HE threw the mag into the bushes and left it there to die in Texas...
All of that sounds bad about the Seekins design, but really, I do love the rifle/action and it does work very well - I just wanted to spell out WHY they might take a little more thought than some other actions. AICS and Accurate mags took some bending AND filing, whereas 10min worth of bending on AIAW mags left me with perfectly reliable feeding - and AW mags are easier to load (and unload) and are shorter than standard centerfeed AICS mags. Comparatively, a standard Rem 700 without feed rails (cut for DBM) or Rem 700 clones often won't reliably feed from AW mags, because the curvature of the bolthead won't reliably reach the caseheads in the staggerfeed layout.
I can see that quite clearly, having done similarly with other inanimate objects in the past.
Varminterror
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2016
- Messages
- 14,897
I felt bad later on for littering, especially as a guest on a very nice shooting facility. But I also felt bad I didn't take the opportunity to give that mag a fiery death, AND worse, left the opportunity for some other unwitting passerby to maybe find it and try using it... Er, my friend felt bad...
The AI AW Mag I have looks like it is good to go, from eyeballing and running the bolt with no rounds. I just need to get it out and use it. Three chances and three times I left it at home. *Sigh*
With the bolt all the way back you can hang it up if you put sideways movement on it before getting it moving forward, just something to be aware of. Not the slickest action ever, but not bad. We did speak in PMs about the cock on closing and "adjusting" mags.
With the bolt all the way back you can hang it up if you put sideways movement on it before getting it moving forward, just something to be aware of. Not the slickest action ever, but not bad. We did speak in PMs about the cock on closing and "adjusting" mags.
Good news is it will rust away in time.
Ordered another with the ammo order.
Varminterror
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2016
- Messages
- 14,897
It was a Pmag... what have I done to the Earth Mother?
Just do it
Sign up for July, commit to doing it and enjoy it
The first will be fun but also be very new and weird,
Practice what you need to and you will be significantly better prepared for the second match
