HI there I just bought a Remington 700P in .308 that I will use in a persion shooting course. My friends disagree with my choice of rifle, they all suggest I get a accuracy Intl I don't have 5K for a rifle. The distances I will be shooting are between 100-500 yds. Does the AI do something that the Remington doesn't?
Long range shooting
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General Geoff
Member
Accuracy Internationals sure are nice rifles, but you shouldn't worry about them until you get really, really good. Think of it like this. Your Remington is a Mustang GT, and that AI rifle is a McLaren F1. You don't want to spend a million dollars on a car when you're just now learning how to drive on a race course. Once you get real good with your Remington, only then should you consider dropping several grand on a high end rifle like an AI. You won't notice any difference in performance between the two up to 500 yards, if they're both set up right.
The key thing here is for YOU to learn how to SHOOT, not to learn how to spend money. Anyone can shoot an accurate rifle. Very few can truly shoot a rifle, accurately.
The key thing here is for YOU to learn how to SHOOT, not to learn how to spend money. Anyone can shoot an accurate rifle. Very few can truly shoot a rifle, accurately.
res45
Member
And just think with the right reloads,scope,technique and practice,just imagine the look on there faces and the smile on yours when you out shoot those 5K rifles,learn to do more with less and have trust and confidence in your own self and ability with what you have. A rifle is only as good as the person behind the trigger.
PawPaw
Member
The M40A1 (Marine Corps sniper rifle) is basically a modified Remington 700.
If it's good enough for the Marine Corps....
The M24 rifle is the sniper weapon of the US Army. It is also a modified Remington 700.
You can do just about anything you need to do with the Remington 700. Learn to shoot it and you won't see the need to spend any extra money.
If it's good enough for the Marine Corps....
The M24 rifle is the sniper weapon of the US Army. It is also a modified Remington 700.
You can do just about anything you need to do with the Remington 700. Learn to shoot it and you won't see the need to spend any extra money.
skinewmexico
Member
Your friends must have a lot of money they didn't earn, to recommend an AI for a starter rifle. As to scopes, depends on what you want to pay. I've got a Bushnell Elite 4200 with the fine dot that is working great for me at 500m. But General Geoff summed it up well. And I'm sure Zak Smith will chime in here somewhere. He has written several fine articles on LR shooting. And uses an AI.
Red_SC
Member
What price range for the scope?
Here is one I'd recommend for a budget scope- you can easily get most of your investment back if you decide to move up. It has good glass and construction, but is fixed power.
http://www.swfa.com/pc-4304-231-super-sniper-10x42-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx
Here is one I'd recommend for a budget scope- you can easily get most of your investment back if you decide to move up. It has good glass and construction, but is fixed power.
http://www.swfa.com/pc-4304-231-super-sniper-10x42-30mm-rifle-scope.aspx
res45
Member
There are others this will just give you some ideas as starting point.
http://www.swfa.com/pc-11722-1395-millett-4-16x50-tactical-30mm-riflescope.aspx
http://www.millettsights.com/index.php/catalog_2007/tactical
http://www.swfa.com/pc-11722-1395-millett-4-16x50-tactical-30mm-riflescope.aspx
http://www.millettsights.com/index.php/catalog_2007/tactical
The 700P should easily get you out to 1,000 yards, your groups will be bigger then an AI or a GAP, but it should reach out to 1,000 yards easily.
Optics are more important, at a bare minimum I would consider Super Sniper (10x42 or 16x42) to be the lowest I would go. Even if I went cheap with the rings and the scope I would still get a quality base like the Badger base. Rings can and will change with your scope, your base will stay as long as you keep the same action on the rifle.
Super Sniper 10x42: 300
Badger Base 20MOA: 135
Rings: $50-100
Spend any remaining money on match ammo, a bipod, and range fees.
Optics are more important, at a bare minimum I would consider Super Sniper (10x42 or 16x42) to be the lowest I would go. Even if I went cheap with the rings and the scope I would still get a quality base like the Badger base. Rings can and will change with your scope, your base will stay as long as you keep the same action on the rifle.
Super Sniper 10x42: 300
Badger Base 20MOA: 135
Rings: $50-100
Spend any remaining money on match ammo, a bipod, and range fees.
redneck2
Member
Or, you could REALLY use it well and buy a basic single stage press and other reloading stuff.
You might look for a Burris Black Diamond or other scope on ebay. Once in awhile there's some that go for pretty decent prices. I've got a 8x32x44 Burris on my 1,000 yard rifle. For your yardage, something like a 6x24 would be way plenty. Depends on the size the target.
I agree reloading 308 has a real quick ROI, but IMO the first couple hundred rounds through a rifle should be factory so you can test it to make sure it groups well (and it's not your loading), and so you have brass so you can start loading.
On that subject I am about to buy a reloading kit for my 308, 40 cents a round will allow me to shoot three times as much (like anyone ever thought I would save the cost difference
).
On that subject I am about to buy a reloading kit for my 308, 40 cents a round will allow me to shoot three times as much (like anyone ever thought I would save the cost difference
).
SATX man
If you make your living shooting benchrest and your abilities are superior to your firearm spend the money. Having the finest tools can do many things for your performance. There is no doubt a quality fire arm can out perform a modest one when used by the same shooter. If in your head you believe in your skills and your equipment you will be competitive.
When you reach a point that you feel you have perfected your ability then spend the big bucks! A quality set of golf clubs can shave a stroke or two, a quality trap gun can break and extra bird or two, and a quality rifle can score more 10 rings. I know a guy that shoots consistant 50's in trap with an 870 Express, I know a guy that shoots a Krieghoff that I can beat everyday of the week with my BT99. Just don't be the guy that pulls a golf bag of $2000 Pings out that shoot bogey golf...
If you make your living shooting benchrest and your abilities are superior to your firearm spend the money. Having the finest tools can do many things for your performance. There is no doubt a quality fire arm can out perform a modest one when used by the same shooter. If in your head you believe in your skills and your equipment you will be competitive.
When you reach a point that you feel you have perfected your ability then spend the big bucks! A quality set of golf clubs can shave a stroke or two, a quality trap gun can break and extra bird or two, and a quality rifle can score more 10 rings. I know a guy that shoots consistant 50's in trap with an 870 Express, I know a guy that shoots a Krieghoff that I can beat everyday of the week with my BT99. Just don't be the guy that pulls a golf bag of $2000 Pings out that shoot bogey golf...
W.E.G.
Member
100-500 yards is not "long range" by any NRA rulebook standard.
800+ yards is long range.
Unless you have a VERY SPECIAL scope, you will not be able to shoot 800+ yards unless you install a 20 MOA scope base. Your basic Bushnell or even Leupold will run out of elevation-adjustment right around 600 yards.
800+ yards is long range.
Unless you have a VERY SPECIAL scope, you will not be able to shoot 800+ yards unless you install a 20 MOA scope base. Your basic Bushnell or even Leupold will run out of elevation-adjustment right around 600 yards.
if you're paying 120 cents/rnd for 308 match, you're paying 30 cents too much
if you ordered a dozen AIs from the factory and a dozen 700Ps, I would wager that there would be more variation in the 700s (some more accurate than others) but that the best guns from each group would shoot about the same.
the biggest advantage of the AI is the stock, if it suits you. the 700p stock is ok, but not as comfortable (to me).
however, you can buy the AI stock for around $1000 by itself from the dealer, and put a 700 action in it and get a custom barrel ($350) and for about $2200, including gunsmithing, you can have a rifle that will outshoot the factory AIs AND you can get it in the caliber of your choice (e.g. something sexy you can't get from the factory. if you wanted to go as high as $3000, you could put a better action (e.g. stiller) in it.
if you ordered a dozen AIs from the factory and a dozen 700Ps, I would wager that there would be more variation in the 700s (some more accurate than others) but that the best guns from each group would shoot about the same.
the biggest advantage of the AI is the stock, if it suits you. the 700p stock is ok, but not as comfortable (to me).
however, you can buy the AI stock for around $1000 by itself from the dealer, and put a 700 action in it and get a custom barrel ($350) and for about $2200, including gunsmithing, you can have a rifle that will outshoot the factory AIs AND you can get it in the caliber of your choice (e.g. something sexy you can't get from the factory. if you wanted to go as high as $3000, you could put a better action (e.g. stiller) in it.
Depends what you are shooting BH 175 SMKBT, the cheapest I found per a case was 95 cents a round. Federal is around $1.20 a round when purchased in bulk.
Reloading I can get the cost per a round to 35-38 cents including the cost of brass usage.
For $2300 you can get a GAP rifle that will shoot 1/2 MOA all day without breaking a sweat. Also for about $100 more then that 700P you can get a 700 5R Milspec that will shoot nearly the same as the GAP.
A good heavy barrel factory rifle is capable of a level of accuracy that exceeds the ability of 99% of shooters. Assuming that your rifle has a good barrel, and is well bedded, and you use good bullets, there is no reason you cannot shoot ten shot groups under 1 MOA. And let me tell you, there are not a lot of people who can shoot ten shot groups under 1 MOA. It takes a lot of practice because the human factor is the greatest source of error in the system.
I have shot tens of thousands of 308 rounds, most at 600 yards or less, and the 308 is a very well balanced cartridge. The recoil is manageable, the accuracy excellent, and it is hard not to make accurate reloads.
The M700 action is a good reliable action and your rifle should serve you well.
When you are up to your hips in fired cases, that is about the time to think about custom rifles. Mostly for the ergonomics.
I have shot tens of thousands of 308 rounds, most at 600 yards or less, and the 308 is a very well balanced cartridge. The recoil is manageable, the accuracy excellent, and it is hard not to make accurate reloads.
The M700 action is a good reliable action and your rifle should serve you well.
When you are up to your hips in fired cases, that is about the time to think about custom rifles. Mostly for the ergonomics.
skinewmexico
Member
That's just sad...........
IndianaBoy
Member
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Spend more time practicing and you will make the guys with the 5k rifles that they don't understand look like fools on the range.
You can't buy experience.
Get the Remington 700 in 308 and a good scope. Learn to estimate range.
Learn to dope wind.
Leupold scopes are available with Bullet Drop Compensation turrets.
Errors in estimating and compensating for wind and range are the single biggest hurdle to overcome when shooting at long range.
500 yards should be no problem for a Remington 700.
The weak link is the guy behind the trigger.
Spend the extra money on ammo, your friends with more money than sense will wonder why their wonderguns aren't as good as yours.
You can't buy experience.
Get the Remington 700 in 308 and a good scope. Learn to estimate range.
Learn to dope wind.
Leupold scopes are available with Bullet Drop Compensation turrets.
Errors in estimating and compensating for wind and range are the single biggest hurdle to overcome when shooting at long range.
500 yards should be no problem for a Remington 700.
The weak link is the guy behind the trigger.
Spend the extra money on ammo, your friends with more money than sense will wonder why their wonderguns aren't as good as yours.
nicholst55
Member
Besides, just think how much fun you'll have outshooting your friends with your 'inferior' rifle!
Zak Smith
Member
The biggest advantage a top-end LR rifle/scope combination brings to a new shooter is that it removes barriers to learning that might be present in a low or mid-end factory setup. There are more aspects one just doesn't have to worry about or fiddle with.
That said, an experienced LR shooter can set up a low-end factory rifle and get hits a lot faster than a new LR shooter because he can identify the potential and actual problems and fix them the right way before wasting time and effort trying to figure out problems in the presence of multiple "unknowns." Hopefully that makes sense.
You certainly don't need a high dollar rifle to make LR hits.. but it doesn't hurt. It's not uncommon for a new LR shooter to bring out a factory PSS or Savage with an Ok scope. The ergonomics are often all wrong, he maybe hasn't found a great load that the barrel "like", the trigger is so/so, and his zero might be of marginal confidence. When he tries to make LR hits, he is fighting the rifle "fit", he is fighting a poor trigger, there is low confidence in the dope because of the low-confidence zero because maybe he's using the "wrong" ammunition (what his barrel doesn't really "like"). Contrast to sitting down behind a TRG, AI, or Surgeon/A5, where everything is sorted out, fits, and has a solid zero and solid data. Anyone who can hold the cross-hairs on the target while pressing the trigger can make hits with one of those setups.. that's what I mean by "barriers to learning."
I have some comments on rifle selection in here
article | Practical Long-Range Rifle Shooting, Part I - Rifle & Equipment
That said, an experienced LR shooter can set up a low-end factory rifle and get hits a lot faster than a new LR shooter because he can identify the potential and actual problems and fix them the right way before wasting time and effort trying to figure out problems in the presence of multiple "unknowns." Hopefully that makes sense.
You certainly don't need a high dollar rifle to make LR hits.. but it doesn't hurt. It's not uncommon for a new LR shooter to bring out a factory PSS or Savage with an Ok scope. The ergonomics are often all wrong, he maybe hasn't found a great load that the barrel "like", the trigger is so/so, and his zero might be of marginal confidence. When he tries to make LR hits, he is fighting the rifle "fit", he is fighting a poor trigger, there is low confidence in the dope because of the low-confidence zero because maybe he's using the "wrong" ammunition (what his barrel doesn't really "like"). Contrast to sitting down behind a TRG, AI, or Surgeon/A5, where everything is sorted out, fits, and has a solid zero and solid data. Anyone who can hold the cross-hairs on the target while pressing the trigger can make hits with one of those setups.. that's what I mean by "barriers to learning."
I have some comments on rifle selection in here
article | Practical Long-Range Rifle Shooting, Part I - Rifle & Equipment
VA27
Member
A 700 with a good scope, good mounts/rings and good ammo will do just fine. Over the years I've seen a lot of guns go through the school [Long range instructor school; when the folks show up here, they already know how to shoot pretty good].
Savage 110s have done just fine. One guy brought a 600 Mohawk and did well out to 600yds, until his scope fell apart. Another guy brought a 700BDL in '06 with a 3-9 Leupold. He did good, too. One fellow brought a 700 Sendero in 300 WinMag. Buy the end of the week [approx 700 rounds] he was feeling it. I've even seen and shot a Browning A-Bolt Stalker in '06 with a BOSS on it. It did fine.
The one's who had trouble were either shooting 'custom-made' guns, had a scope that was less than 'quality' or had the 700 with the detachable magazine. [The magazine would fall out at the most inconvienent times.]
Take a back-up scope, too. I've loaned my 6.5-20 Leupold out more than once so someone could finish the course.
Good luck and have fun!
Savage 110s have done just fine. One guy brought a 600 Mohawk and did well out to 600yds, until his scope fell apart. Another guy brought a 700BDL in '06 with a 3-9 Leupold. He did good, too. One fellow brought a 700 Sendero in 300 WinMag. Buy the end of the week [approx 700 rounds] he was feeling it. I've even seen and shot a Browning A-Bolt Stalker in '06 with a BOSS on it. It did fine.
The one's who had trouble were either shooting 'custom-made' guns, had a scope that was less than 'quality' or had the 700 with the detachable magazine. [The magazine would fall out at the most inconvienent times.]
Take a back-up scope, too. I've loaned my 6.5-20 Leupold out more than once so someone could finish the course.
Good luck and have fun!
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