Long range tuning
- Thread starter JFrank
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Nature Boy
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…… I’ll also add putting in the time and listening to others who have been successful in the pursuit of precision.
Keep it running
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JFrank
Member
This is exactly correct a fella has to put in the work to see the rewards, you can buy good equipment but you cannot buy a win, it must be earned.( to rephrase that the guys that are consistently at the top are the ones that put in the most work)
Speaking of listening to the guys that know’ my friend that has a WR also an instructor told me I was popping my head up almost the moment I sent each round and to combat that habit he said to watch each round make dust and keep my head on the scope.
Great advice that really made a heck of a difference.
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JFrank
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Here is a link to a hot topic that I was unfortunately involved in. Ya’ll might find interesting.
https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/lets-talk-about-prize-tables.4072843/
https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/lets-talk-about-prize-tables.4072843/
David Hoback
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I had to deal with that so often when instructing people. It’s one of the Bad Habits that newer shooters ALL do. It’s called playing “Peek-a-BOO” with the target. Sight acquisition, take a shot, bring the head up to look at the target….Re-acquire sight picture, take a shot, bring the head up to look at the target….. LOL!
It always fascinated me how a bunch of people from completely different walks of life.., different sexes, different ethic backgrounds, different Religions, etc., could ALL do the very same inconsistencies with firearms. Gripping the pistol WRONG, but all would do it the SAME wrong way! Standing WRONG.., but ALL would do it the SAME wrong way.Fascinating.
David Hoback
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WOW! I read a bunch of that. I agree 100% with the one guy on that topic! If it’s MY prize, I’ll TAKE & DO with it as I please! Some of those guys sound like my Signature. Good ol’ “Get off my Lawn” fogy’s. If they wanna make rules about a prize table, they shouldn’t have one! Oh well… this is part of why I don’t compete… I hate Curmudgeon’s & FUDDS!
No, I’m just kidding.
But not really.
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JFrank
Member
WOW! I read a bunch of that. I agree 100% with the one guy on that topic! If it’s MY prize, I’ll TAKE & DO with it as I please! Some of those guys sound like my Signature. Good ol’ “Get off my Lawn” fogy’s. If they wanna make rules about a prize table, they shouldn’t have one! Oh well… this is part of why I don’t compete… I hate Curmudgeon’s & FUDDS!
No, I’m just kidding.
Definitely a hot topic…
So tell me Dave, after reading a fair amount of that thread I was involved with give me your opinion as to what good will come from it if any and how would likely are you to attend a sanctioned match with a prize table ?
Jim
David Hoback
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Probably none… couple things really stood out to me. This comment: “*** isn’t wrong. What someone does with his selection is of nobody’s business except the business who donated it.” -Say what?? Uhhhh, it’s the business of the person CHOOSING the prize & theirs alone! The donor’s say ends when they DONATE said prize!
And the other comment: “I also don't think the excuse of "I spent this many dollars traveling to the match, this much money on components, this much money on hotels, so I should be able to sell certificate to recoup some of that money." You are not in this game to make money. This is not a career. This is a hobby. Hobbies are expensive.” -Well, to that I could also say that those people who work in a HOBBY for a living, shouldn’t expect their products to sell for extreme pricing so they they can have “fun” doing their job. Here’s what I mean.. I’m a custom Knifemaker, but it’s never been a career, it’s a hobby. I’ve sold knives, yes, but I sell incredible knives at a FRACTION of the price of many custom Knifesmiths. And I’ll go a step further. The knives I make will utterly destroy any forged blade of pattern welded or simple Carbon. I intentionally started selling them at affordable prices, so that at least some people could have a custom. And boy do many Knifesmiths HATE me with a passion. Because I told the truth about JUNK steel. Meanwhile, while they go on “Forged in Fire”, wearing their Kilts, LOL! (I was acquainted with a bunch of dudes who went on that show.) But I digress. Them’s my thoughts anyway.
I’ve also given away many knives. About 2 years ago, I donated a custom hunting knife for a raffle to help an online friend. He hosted the raffle for $5 chances. I sent the knife directly to the winner. If the winner had then turned around & sold the knife, I would not have batted an eyelash! It was not mine, or my business any longer. If these doners wish to stop donating, that is their prerogative. But don’t donate prizes then put stipulations on them! That’s silly!
Lucky I’m not on this forum! And man oh man! If I had seen people saying anything to you about selling the prize… you & I have have had disagreements, but I would have been in your corner on that one! I’d back anyone up on that! How DARE anyone try to tell another person what they can & can’t sell! Honestly though Jim.., I can’t believe you gave it back! It was yours. Hell if I would have! I’d a told ‘em they can kiss ma butt with they they tongue out!
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JFrank
Member
The cert was for $300 off a custom action that I advertised at half price just to help out whoever needed it.
Hey these are my Deep Creek family range mates that I’m very proud to shoot with and the cert will be donated to a shooter in need so all’s we’ll that ends…My view on prize tables has darken somewhat but that may brighten as time goes on.
Thanks for your opinion Dave.
Jim
Hey these are my Deep Creek family range mates that I’m very proud to shoot with and the cert will be donated to a shooter in need so all’s we’ll that ends…My view on prize tables has darken somewhat but that may brighten as time goes on.
Thanks for your opinion Dave.
Jim
Varminterror
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Interesting left turn this thread took based on an unrelated thread at another forum.
Frankly, it’s kinda funny to see that topic crossing that forum, because it was all the rage about 3 years ago in the PRS, and we’ve largely all gotten over it and moved on to more competition relevant topics for our internal drama (this year it was muzzle cover safety and mulligans).
As folks in that thread pointed out, it’s largely a PRS issue (and especially formerly NRL, because they arranged absolutely massive prize tables for every national event), as we tend to have more prize tables throughout the season than most shooting sports. There’s generally a complete rifle (sans optic), a bare action or two, a couple suppressors, handful of barrels, empty stock, half off all of the above, several pounds of powder, a reloading press, etc… often tens of thousands of dollars worth of stuff.
When the Austins, Clay, or Morgun pick up a rifle every other weekend at 20 some events each year, it might be clear they don’t have use for all of them. It’s also pretty natural for a mid-pack guy to come away with something worth around $500-1000, then resell it for near retail price because they don’t need THAT thing, but need something else.
Personally, I’ve picked up a complete rifle except a rings and muzzle brake for my son in the last year and a half, either in donated product or certs for half off. I’m not a top level guy by any stretch, but I’ve picked up $7,000 in optics from PRS prize tables in the last 3 seasons, and picked up half off two Vortex optics in the two seasons prior - I’m always scope poor, so I made use of all of them, at least for a while. I have also given away a couple of certs, gave away a muzzle brake, gave away an RCBS single stage I picked up. I also sold a few certs for ~1/4 of their value, helping pay for the $1000 I have into most 2 day matches, and because I didn’t need the item bad enough (one was 40% off a Swaro spotting scope which was still something like $3000 after the discount, so selling $2000 worth of cert for $100 didn’t feel too bad, another was 25% off any 1 item with Seekins, right after they launched their Havak rifles, again, selling a $900 cert for $100). I also picked up a “fastest stage” prize once, a $2000 NF, and then could have picked up another $1000+ item on the prize table for my placing walk too, but let my buddy’s 10yr old son walk in my spot - he picked up a box of bullets for his dad to load in his plinking rifle. I’ve been to matches where the podium guys get to walk first, then random draw of everyone else. I’ve been to matches without tables (which aren’t well attended the next year, in general). At most matches, some high ranking guy with an early walk will give his walk to an RO or junior shooter, or new shooter to let them walk early enough to pick up more than a hat or stickers which would have been the only thing left by the time they walked. I’ve also been to a match where a top shooter picked up a scope, walked it across the room to some other shooter’s kid who they knew needed it and handed a $2500 optic to a 14yr old kid who had just been spectating that weekend… There’s a ridiculous amount of generosity in the PRS.
I’ve also seen the ugly side when generosity is truly taken for granted - for several years, pro series shooters in our state club would pool prize table parts and swap gear they won (even sell prize table items to BUY the parts required) to produce a complete, competition ready open class rifle - which was then given to a new shooter at our state Finale which had shot that season (or two) with a factory rifle. The unwritten rule was that when that shooter did finally upgrade some part of it, they’d donate back to the pool, paying it forward, or if they built a new rifle, they’d donate it to some other new shooter. Which went fine for a few years. Then one year, a new shooter had the rifle in hand for about a month, never fired it, then reached out to our club for specs so he could know what to write when he listed it on sniper’s hide for sale… it’s his rifle, so he certainly could do with it what he wanted, but it didn’t really sit well with the group of guys who donated thousands of dollars of THEIR OWN GEAR to help welcome him to the sport. I have also seen a jersey’d shooter throw an absolute fit in public when a match director shuffled to draw an RO among every so many shooters as they went down the list, and the RO - who had donated their time and travel expenses to sit a stage and facilitate the match all weekend - picked up the prize they wanted one place before the shooter (wanna say it was just an 8lber of H4895 too…).
There’s no perfect system which pleases everyone. I’m working still on filling our prize table for our state club finale in 2 months, and I can say, firsthand, vendors don’t want drama, and they want their products to help the GROWTH of the sport. Not every prize on the table can be piped to some uber-grateful, needing, and deserving under-privileged Junior class shooter, but not every prize should get monetized by some mid-pack shooter like selling food stamps on a street corner either… But I do also believe the culture of the matches and clubs will generally set the tone for expected behavior. Bitching about how things are ran, rather than stepping up to help the mechanism run better will rarely produce positive change. Rather, I’ve seen it more frequently cause ranges to cease hosting matches, which isn’t good for anyone…
But personally, I’d much rather keep watching SPJ’s results and targets than see this thread diverge into discussion about another thread on another forum about an unrelated topic.
Frankly, it’s kinda funny to see that topic crossing that forum, because it was all the rage about 3 years ago in the PRS, and we’ve largely all gotten over it and moved on to more competition relevant topics for our internal drama (this year it was muzzle cover safety and mulligans).
As folks in that thread pointed out, it’s largely a PRS issue (and especially formerly NRL, because they arranged absolutely massive prize tables for every national event), as we tend to have more prize tables throughout the season than most shooting sports. There’s generally a complete rifle (sans optic), a bare action or two, a couple suppressors, handful of barrels, empty stock, half off all of the above, several pounds of powder, a reloading press, etc… often tens of thousands of dollars worth of stuff.
When the Austins, Clay, or Morgun pick up a rifle every other weekend at 20 some events each year, it might be clear they don’t have use for all of them. It’s also pretty natural for a mid-pack guy to come away with something worth around $500-1000, then resell it for near retail price because they don’t need THAT thing, but need something else.
Personally, I’ve picked up a complete rifle except a rings and muzzle brake for my son in the last year and a half, either in donated product or certs for half off. I’m not a top level guy by any stretch, but I’ve picked up $7,000 in optics from PRS prize tables in the last 3 seasons, and picked up half off two Vortex optics in the two seasons prior - I’m always scope poor, so I made use of all of them, at least for a while. I have also given away a couple of certs, gave away a muzzle brake, gave away an RCBS single stage I picked up. I also sold a few certs for ~1/4 of their value, helping pay for the $1000 I have into most 2 day matches, and because I didn’t need the item bad enough (one was 40% off a Swaro spotting scope which was still something like $3000 after the discount, so selling $2000 worth of cert for $100 didn’t feel too bad, another was 25% off any 1 item with Seekins, right after they launched their Havak rifles, again, selling a $900 cert for $100). I also picked up a “fastest stage” prize once, a $2000 NF, and then could have picked up another $1000+ item on the prize table for my placing walk too, but let my buddy’s 10yr old son walk in my spot - he picked up a box of bullets for his dad to load in his plinking rifle. I’ve been to matches where the podium guys get to walk first, then random draw of everyone else. I’ve been to matches without tables (which aren’t well attended the next year, in general). At most matches, some high ranking guy with an early walk will give his walk to an RO or junior shooter, or new shooter to let them walk early enough to pick up more than a hat or stickers which would have been the only thing left by the time they walked. I’ve also been to a match where a top shooter picked up a scope, walked it across the room to some other shooter’s kid who they knew needed it and handed a $2500 optic to a 14yr old kid who had just been spectating that weekend… There’s a ridiculous amount of generosity in the PRS.
I’ve also seen the ugly side when generosity is truly taken for granted - for several years, pro series shooters in our state club would pool prize table parts and swap gear they won (even sell prize table items to BUY the parts required) to produce a complete, competition ready open class rifle - which was then given to a new shooter at our state Finale which had shot that season (or two) with a factory rifle. The unwritten rule was that when that shooter did finally upgrade some part of it, they’d donate back to the pool, paying it forward, or if they built a new rifle, they’d donate it to some other new shooter. Which went fine for a few years. Then one year, a new shooter had the rifle in hand for about a month, never fired it, then reached out to our club for specs so he could know what to write when he listed it on sniper’s hide for sale… it’s his rifle, so he certainly could do with it what he wanted, but it didn’t really sit well with the group of guys who donated thousands of dollars of THEIR OWN GEAR to help welcome him to the sport. I have also seen a jersey’d shooter throw an absolute fit in public when a match director shuffled to draw an RO among every so many shooters as they went down the list, and the RO - who had donated their time and travel expenses to sit a stage and facilitate the match all weekend - picked up the prize they wanted one place before the shooter (wanna say it was just an 8lber of H4895 too…).
There’s no perfect system which pleases everyone. I’m working still on filling our prize table for our state club finale in 2 months, and I can say, firsthand, vendors don’t want drama, and they want their products to help the GROWTH of the sport. Not every prize on the table can be piped to some uber-grateful, needing, and deserving under-privileged Junior class shooter, but not every prize should get monetized by some mid-pack shooter like selling food stamps on a street corner either… But I do also believe the culture of the matches and clubs will generally set the tone for expected behavior. Bitching about how things are ran, rather than stepping up to help the mechanism run better will rarely produce positive change. Rather, I’ve seen it more frequently cause ranges to cease hosting matches, which isn’t good for anyone…
But personally, I’d much rather keep watching SPJ’s results and targets than see this thread diverge into discussion about another thread on another forum about an unrelated topic.
OP
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JFrank
Member
I was tried and convicted ‘twice’ on that topic, VT your one of the few guys that has the integrity to stand tall and admit you’ve sold items.
Thanks man that says a lot.
Jim
Thanks man that says a lot.
Jim
horsemen61
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I’d love to keep watching this thread please keep it going
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JFrank
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I’ll keep the thread alive during the off season to shed some light on how we install a barrel on my quick change Bat B receiver and choosing the next chamber reamer for a couple of barrel blanks on the shelf.
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JFrank
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This is a copy of the 6 mm BR-Ackley reamer print I’m looking at.
This particular reamer has dimensions that closely match my current chamber at the case shoulder junction also the .200 line, so that should keep my brass in rotation with the same full length sizing die and trimmer length being used and hopefully my tune up should be fairly close too.
I’m reading s 104 freebore on this print , perfect for a 103 gr VLD
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horsemen61
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Varminterror
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So new barrel and new reamer, any other changes coming for your rifle or broader kit for 2023?
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JFrank
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One thing I’ll work on is making better wind calls and not be as conservative with hold overs. ( if ya don’t you’ll loose anyway…)
Fortune favors the brave.
Fortune favors the brave.
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Varminterror
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Hear that!
I’m shooting one more match this season, this wknd, then a few weeks in deer woods, spin on a new barrel, and start prepping for next season. One of our local NRL-22 clubs hosts matches all season, whereas our centerfire matches aren’t open Nov through Feb, so I’ll tune up a bit on positional shooting at those matches, and especially on wind reading.
One of my biggest weaknesses this season has been failing to be confident in “dramatic changes” in wind corrections when shots bled off of targets. Adding a tenth mil doesn’t help when you’ve slipped off of a target 6 tenths wide - push on a half mil to get back onto target, dammit!!! So that wind management mental game is a big part of my off-season strategy.
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JFrank
Member
I’m not real thrilled with my Golden Eagle scope either, at my age I want a good sight picture and the GE has some limitations in that dept. I believe a Nightforce Comp is in my near future it’s just the $2160 I have to budget in.
Speaking of wind calls, we get a fair amount of 1-2:00 stuff that turns to a head wind.. but we also have berms that induce vertical with the changes in headwind.. the big change from 12:00 to 1:30 is the killer.
Speaking of wind calls, we get a fair amount of 1-2:00 stuff that turns to a head wind.. but we also have berms that induce vertical with the changes in headwind.. the big change from 12:00 to 1:30 is the killer.
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Varminterror
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Know anybody mil/LEO, or instructor? NRA Life Member?
$1680 sounds a lot better than $2160, right?
$1680 sounds a lot better than $2160, right?
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JFrank
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I do , but don’t like to ask and feel as to impose on them for favor’s. One buddy an mil instructor is purchasing two for himself although not quite as low of a price. For whatever reason.
Varminterror
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The lowest program prices only allow one optic per year. But we can also get access to dealer pricing which isn’t quite as low, but also isn’t as limited.
Not for nothin, but in many instances, an NRA life membership or instructor certification costs less than the difference you’d save. I teach other classes more often, but I still teach NRA classes just to keep my currency, which is more beneficial for me to keep access to these programs than it is for the money I make on CCHL classes (have to be NRA or USCCA to teach CCHL in KS).
Just pointing out options for how to access NF without quite as steep of cost of entry. Might even be worth calling them to see if they’d extend their program pricing to members of your league up there. They’re great folks.
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JFrank
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We’ll see how things play out. The NF comp is certainly top tier glass and I’ve been a good boy this year.
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JFrank
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After a bit of research on reticle and talking to a few buddies I’ve settled on the model and got it ordered.The FCR-1 reticle should give the most information plus I’m fond of one minute hash marks.
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JFrank
Member
I just noticed this thread has almost 8200 views, wow I didn’t realize there was that much interest in LR shooting on THR.
Cool and thx guys
( maybe guys just like to watch me suffer .lol)
Cool and thx guys
( maybe guys just like to watch me suffer .lol)
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