Longevity of budget vs higher priced AR-15's

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Charlie Martinez

Charlie Martinez

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My buddy is range master at a local gun range and we were discussing my budget priced AR. MY AR is a PSA lower & a BCA upper. I was telling him how impressed I was with it's accuracy and reliability. He told me that the range rents AR's that are priced above mine and presumably of better quality, and that they (only) last 12K rounds max. He added that they have rented BCA guns and that they lasted about 10K. We didn't discuss the range's maintenance program but I assume that these guns shoot a lot of rounds between cleaning sessions and being rentals they are probably abused. Those two factors may play a role in the supposedly low round count limit.

Is a max life expectancy of 10-12K (in semi auto fire) considered too low for any decent quality AR? If so, what upgrades would a budget gun require to increase life expectancy?

I would like to hear opinions on this.

PS: Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!
 
Most 223/556 barrels are going to be worn out by 10-12K no matter who made the barrel and what material that barrel is made from. Life will be shorter if they are exposed to a lot of rapid fire. The damage from firing increase as the barrel gets hotter. You can ruin a barrel is just a few thousand rounds of full auto mag dumps.

But in the grand scheme of things the price of a new barrel (even a high end barrel) is a small percentage of the cost of 10,000 rounds of ammunition.
 
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Charlie Martinez said:
My buddy is range master at a local gun range and we were discussing my budget priced AR. MY AR is a PSA lower & a BCA upper. I was telling him how impressed I was with it's accuracy and reliability. He told me that the range rents AR's that are priced above mine and presumably of better quality, and that they (only) last 12K rounds max. He added that they have rented BCA guns and that they lasted about 10K. We didn't discuss the range's maintenance program but I assume that these guns shoot a lot of rounds between cleaning sessions and being rentals they are probably abused. Those two factors may play a role in the supposedly low round count limit.

Is a max life expectancy of 10-12K (in semi auto fire) considered too low for any decent quality AR? If so, what upgrades would a budget gun require to increase life expectancy?

I would like to hear opinions on this.

PS: Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!
Click to expand...

Use, abuse, and maintenance are going to be key factors. Barrels wear out, especially rifle barrels. Most only have a few seconds of use life before they are toast.

I purchased an AR15 in 2002. In a few years and 19K rounds, the non-chrome-lined barrel was keyholing. I put in a match trigger and changed the stock on the lower and it is on another AR15 and everything works fine. I sold the upper to a buddy and he has used it for the last 15 years with another barrel. The only major thing that "wore out" was the barrel.

On all my ARs and guns in general, what seems to go away are barrels and springs. I have worn out one trigger as well and replaced a couple extractors administratively with more than 10K rounds each on them. Others I have simply let ride. Of course, there are the occasional parts that wear out or break. I managed to bugger a mag catch somehow on one of my lowers. Things happen.

I will also add that most people will not wear out an AR15. Most won't wear out their first barrel.
 
A lot of people think that buying more expensive means better.

Most don't understand that most manufacturers get their parts from the same places.

If my BCA gets 10K rounds before it needs to be swapped out, that's better than amazing!

Why would I spend $800+ for a name when a $300 upper from BCA can achieve the same?

o5gbh1sgyxj71.jpg

:)
 
10k+ rounds is going to wear out most centerfire rifle barrels either way.

Every part on a gun has a life expectancy though. Rarely is a whole gun "worn out" - just some part of it is that needs to be replaced. Depending on the part and the model of gun that might not be cost effective, but the commoditization of AR's mean that its pretty much always cheap to just replace what is needed on an AR and get it going again.

Now, a more expensive AR is going to contain better parts, and several of them will likely outlast their counterparts on a cheap gun. That said, I'd personally just shoot it until something breaks and then fix it and go again. If you really want, replace the broken part with a premium part since it's only a few items that tend to wear. EG, your bolt stop will take a lot of abuse. A cheap one will break fast. If it does just put on a good one.
 
I doubt I will ever wear out my PSA AR, ever. I always have extra parts on hand just in case, but I have several guns to shoot, so the "wear" get's shared out to all. ;)
As for rentals, I worked on a rental range 23 years ago, and yes, rentals get BEAT like rented mules. We had the very first HK USP pistols, 6 of them, and in a years time, 5 were sent back for repair. The only things that really lasted was the Ruger P series pistols and the Smith and Wesson revolvers, everything else, even the HK P7, ended up needing repair.
Funny thing - the boss put a pot metal Jimenez 9mm on the rental shelf one day - it didn't last the entire day.
 
Charlie Martinez said:
My buddy is range master at a local gun range and we were discussing my budget priced AR. MY AR is a PSA lower & a BCA upper. I was telling him how impressed I was with it's accuracy and reliability. He told me that the range rents AR's that are priced above mine and presumably of better quality, and that they (only) last 12K rounds max. He added that they have rented BCA guns and that they lasted about 10K. We didn't discuss the range's maintenance program but I assume that these guns shoot a lot of rounds between cleaning sessions and being rentals they are probably abused. Those two factors may play a role in the supposedly low round count limit.

Is a max life expectancy of 10-12K (in semi auto fire) considered too low for any decent quality AR? If so, what upgrades would a budget gun require to increase life expectancy?

I would like to hear opinions on this.

PS: Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!
Click to expand...

No offense to your buddy, but I'm thinking that he may have just put arbitrary numbers to his facts, unless the range keeps good records of how many rounds go through any particular rifle, I doubt that he can say how many rounds it takes to kill a BCA.

For a long time, I turned my nose up at products from vendors like BCA, but over the past couple of years, I've had to revise my opinion as I gain experience with them. I mean, what does it mean when someone says that a rifle has better parts in it? A barrel is a barrel, as long as it's straight, the chamber was cut right and the material is good steel. As far as BCGs go, how many manufacturers are making them? Most boutique BCGs that you pay a premium for are made by Toolcraft, or some such manufacturer, that are rebranded. Those two things are what really matter, so what's left? The little doodads that may be MIM instead of forged, or the springs that may not be as good as you'd get from BCM.

Fact is, the whole AR is a wear item. Sooner or later, everything will need to be replaced. My experience with ARs from BCA or PSA has been that if they run out of the box, they will likely keep running. If they stop running within a few thousand rounds, it's usually a simple small part fix.

If you have a BCA or PSA and it goes boom when you squeeze the trigger and it keeps doing that, just get yourself an Oops kit and a spare complete bolt and don't worry about it.

Personally, I build or assemble my own ARs because I'm picky about 2 things. The barrel and the trigger. I like my Criterion barrels and have been spoiled by Geissele. Everything else, I have so many uppers laying around from so many manufacturers, I don't even pay attention any more. These days everything is made of 7075. The only lowers I've had problems with were Andersons not playing nicely with some mag catches and bolt stops.
 
The biggest thing I take from your buddy is what I already knew. Almost nobody out there is making all the parts that are going into the AR's they assemble. Most AR parts are a commodity that get made by just a few manufacturers and then rebranded and sold by dozens and dozens of different companies. The difference between a $500 AR and a $1000+ AR in many cases is who put their name on the parts and assembled it.

If you shoot $5000 of ammo through a $500 AR, you shouldn't be upset that it needs a new barrel and bolt at the end of that.
 
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If you want a really interesting read, Google “high round count AR/M4” and go to the AR15.com thread. It was started in n 2017 by a guy who owns “Battlefield Las Vegas”, a rental only range in Nevada that goes through millions of rounds per year and does theme shoots for groups, where you can rent a package of guns from movies, video games, etc.

The owner posts under the name “Henderson Defense”. His last post was in Oct 2023 I believe. The thread is 42 pages long. Excellent info! No BS from him, just real world results from rental guns shooting many thousands of rounds per month.

He also has excellent threads on pistols and optics.

I don’t read every post by every poster, but I read all the posts he writes. Very good info and he answers a lot of questions from other posters.
 
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Finally, the BEST WARRANTY in the AR-15 business:

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Our Warranty

When you get into the top tier rifle companies you have a high performance expectation. At that level, the guns really do work.Sometimes what truly separates...
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This is a San Antonio company and truly a great bunch of guys.

A very good friend of mine’s son is a San Antonio cop. He used his SOLGW AR in a duty shoot and they immediately gave him a replacement while his was in the evidence locker.

They are shooters and serious gun builders.
 
someguy2800 said:
The biggest thing I take from your buddy is what I already knew. Almost nobody out there is making all the parts that are going into the AR's they assemble. Most AR parts are a commodity that get made by just a few manufacturers and then rebranded and sold by dozens and dozens of different companies.
The difference between a $500 AR and a $1000+ AR in many cases is who put their name on the parts and assembled it.
Click to expand...

Yes and no. Much (everything?) depends on the specific parameters the company provides.

“ABC Machine” manufactures bolt carriers. AR Company A tells them they want “mil spec” and QC/testing on every 10K bolts. That’s is your basic mil spec BCG.

AR Company B requires specific metals, tighter tolerances, more frequent testing/QC, etc. Same manufacturer, but much different quality in the product.

Good explanation here:

youtu.be

SOLGW - Bolt Carrier Group - the heartbeat of the rifle

Stick to this formula and you'll do well. Wizard piss and gimmicks come and go. Look at what's stood the test of time. Return to the fundamentals of function...
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Double Naught Spy said:
….rifle barrels. Most only have a few seconds of use life before they are toast.
Click to expand...

Thanks for bringing this up. I’ve never really thought about this. You are spot on.

Cumulative bullet time in a 24” barrel, 223 Rem, is about 10 seconds for 10,000 rounds.
Cumulative bullet time in a 24” barrel, 220 Swift, is about 1.2 seconds for 1,500 rounds.

How long will your 223 AR last? About 10 seconds. :)
 
In my experience budget ARs do wear out faster than properly built rifles. Cheaper metals, lighter buffers, overgassed barrels, etc... cause accelerated wear on the rifle.

When we had Bushmaster duty rifles they would constantly go down because of these reasons. Every training day at least one rifle would need to get parts replaced.

A properly built rifle, even with budget parts, will last a long time.

I've seen good AR barrels go 15-20k rounds. But those were not abused.
 
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You need to define worn out wrt barrels.
1 moa accuracy? Yeah, it’s going to be toast long before 10k rounds. Probably 3k for stainless. But it’s going to be a long time before it starts keyholing.

Firing schedule also affects it. Filthy 14 referenced above had all its rounds fired in Pat Roger’s carbine classes. They definitely get the rifles hot so that makes it’s round count a lot more impressive. But if you’re shooting at a range that has a rule about a couple seconds between shots or no rapid firing etc, then it’s going to last a lot longer.

Before you replace your barrel on a hard use ar15, you’ll replace your action spring and gas rings, maybe the extractor. They’re just wear parts.
 
that they (only) last 12K rounds max.
Click to expand...

I believe any decent AR should last longer than 12,000 rounds. The accuracy of the barrel may be in decline and there may well be some small parts and spring breakage/wear but all of that can be repaired easily enough. Chuck Taylor's G17 was at 365,000 rounds as of 2017. I haven't seen an update on the round count more recently.


The purpose of this test was to determine how cost-effective steel cased ammo is vs brass cased ammo in an AR They went 10,000 rounds of 4 different types of ammo through 4 identical rifles with only issues with some ammo. They did give up on one brand of ammo after 6000 rounds. That is 36,000 rounds through 4 rifles with no rifle issues.

www.luckygunner.com

Brass vs. Steel Cased Ammo - An Epic Torture Test

This comprehensive 40,000 round brass vs. steel cased ammo torture test examines at key indicators of ammo performance and cost in AR-15 rifles.
www.luckygunner.com
 
They only last bla bla tops. That's like telling me how long my truck will last. Now tell me what part of my truck won't last. Instead of this powder sends my bullet bla bla fast but no talk about accuracy. Unprovable statements or facts.
What wears out first on an AR. How knows. They are made to forever rebuild till receiver is out of spec. The question that should be considered is how long does a cost effective receiver last compared to a high dollar version . Nothing else matters because they are just easy to replace wear parts. Forged, billet , cast, plastic receivers last longer than...... That's a question for inquisitive minds.
 
jmr40 said:
I believe any decent AR should last longer than 12,000 rounds. The accuracy of the barrel may be in decline and there may well be some small parts and spring breakage/wear but all of that can be repaired easily enough. Chuck Taylor's G17 was at 365,000 rounds as of 2017. I haven't seen an update on the round count more recently.


The purpose of this test was to determine how cost-effective steel cased ammo is vs brass cased ammo in an AR They went 10,000 rounds of 4 different types of ammo through 4 identical rifles with only issues with some ammo. They did give up on one brand of ammo after 6000 rounds. That is 36,000 rounds through 4 rifles with no rifle issues.

www.luckygunner.com

Brass vs. Steel Cased Ammo - An Epic Torture Test

This comprehensive 40,000 round brass vs. steel cased ammo torture test examines at key indicators of ammo performance and cost in AR-15 rifles.
www.luckygunner.com
Click to expand...
The damage caused at 556 pressures and velocities is significant greater than 9x19 pressures and velocities. Remember the heat of combustion and it's ability to transfer that heat into the barrel is directly tied to the pressure. Velocity only makes it worst with greater frictional contributions to wear and heat.
 
Charlie Martinez said:
My buddy is range master at a local gun range and we were discussing my budget priced AR. MY AR is a PSA lower & a BCA upper. I was telling him how impressed I was with it's accuracy and reliability. He told me that the range rents AR's that are priced above mine and presumably of better quality, and that they (only) last 12K rounds max. He added that they have rented BCA guns and that they lasted about 10K. We didn't discuss the range's maintenance program but I assume that these guns shoot a lot of rounds between cleaning sessions and being rentals they are probably abused. Those two factors may play a role in the supposedly low round count limit.

Is a max life expectancy of 10-12K (in semi auto fire) considered too low for any decent quality AR? If so, what upgrades would a budget gun require to increase life expectancy?

I would like to hear opinions on this.

PS: Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!
Click to expand...
Did he say what parts were failing? No offense to your bud, but range masters are right up there with gun store clerks in the quality of info that they put out.
 
Mk-211 said:
A lot of people think that buying more expensive means better.

Most don't understand that most manufacturers get their parts from the same places.

If my BCA gets 10K rounds before it needs to be swapped out, that's better than amazing!

Why would I spend $800+ for a name when a $300 upper from BCA can achieve the same?

View attachment 1180929

:)
Click to expand...
Yep..what he said!

If you are buying one of the top tier names, you are just paying a little more for a roll stamp. That earns you the right to be a brand snob..nothing more.

I don't care what roll.stamp it is..if it's a mil spec weapon..you are gaining nothing at all going expensive. You are just wasting money.

Even the non Mil.spec..KAC..LMT..in reality, ain't any better either, you just pay a heck of a lot more, for a roll stamp and unique proprietary parts that won't fit any other brand..and most likely won't fit with its own brand much either.

Foolish..all it is.

I don't care what anyone says at this point. I've now read, seen, handled, shot, seen up close and personal field stripped..none out there...NONE..are any better than PSA..

Only brand snobs continue to believe that's not true..mostly because they can't believe they are so foolish to spend so much for very little gain.

Barrels and bolts wear out...no matter who makes them. They are expendable wear items.

Only three things make an AR...barrels, bolts, triggers. All three are ridiculous easy to change. The rest..is just window dressing.

Sorry name snobs...you got suckered (says a Guy who deliberately spend over 3.5k building a snob gun just to see if they are actually better..and they ain't. End of story).
 
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