First AR-15: Pulling Triple Duty

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Aug 17, 2011
Messages
88
Members of THR:

I have recently started to fall in love with shooting sports. I grew up hunting and firing weapons. During college and law school I ran out of time and money to enjoy hunting. However, this summer during my internship I have had both the time and money (kind of!) to get back into it.

In that vein I want to put together a AR-15 that can be used for HD, coyote/varmint hunting, and possibly some very low key local 3 gun events. I am looking to start with a entry level AR that provides quality.

The options I have come up with:

1. Smith and Wesson M&P 15 Sport (640'ish after FFL)
Pro:
* Price
* SW reliability

Con:
* No Dust Cover (not a real biggy but if SHTF it may be)
2. Build My own from PSA (620'ish after FFL)
Components
* Upper: Palmetto State Armory 16" SS Rifle Kit (499)
* Lower: PSA Stripped Lower ($80)
* Optics: Unknown
3. Buy Used off AR-15.com Equipment Exchange


Any thoughts? Budget is roughly 650'ish (pre-optics).
 
I own both and love them both. Neither have had any problems ( I've only had the PSA for about 2 weeks). It's really kind of a tough decision. They are both quality rifles, so it kinda boils down to two things, do you want the S&W warranty without the dust cover and forward assist, or do you want the PSA with the forward assist and dust cover, but less warranty? PSA has been great to deal with, but I really dont even know if their guns come with a warranty. I would bet that the rifle kits probably don't.
 
welcome to THR

given the economy, you can buy used AR15s REALLY cheap, so that is a legit option, but be careful if it's a custom that someone has put together. make sure you research all the parts and then shoot it before you buy it to make sure it runs.

don't sweat the dust cover for what you need. it is a good idea to get in the habit of closing the dust cover if it's a duty gun, but for range/match use, you normally have to leave it open so people can see it's not loaded.
 
You should be able to find something amoung these:

Alexander Arms www.alexander arms.com
Armalite www.armalite.com
Bushmaster www.bushmaster.com
CMMG www.cmmginc.com
Colt www.colt.com
Daniel Defense www.danieldefense.com
Del-Ton http://www.del-ton.com
DPMS www.dpmsinc.com
DSA www.dsarms.com
Double Star http://star15.com/basic_rifles.html
FNH USA http://www.fnhusa.com
H&K USA http://www.hk-usa.com/civilian_products/civ_rifles.asp
LaRue www.laruetatical.homestead.com
Les Baer www.lesbaer.com
Lewis Machine & Tools www.lewis-machine.net
LWRCI www.lwrci.com
Mossberg www.mossberg.com
Noveske www.noveskerifleworks.com
Olympic Arms www.olyarms.com
Para USA www.paraord.com
Patriot Ordnance www.pof-usa.com
Rock River Arms www.rockriverarms.com
Remington www.remington.com
Ruger www.ruger.com
Sabre Defence www.sabredefence.com
Smith & Wesson www.smith-wesson.com
Stag Arms www.stagarms.com


Jim
 
I would build the PSA. I've built 2 PSA lowers, used PSA parts in a Sabre lower and have used much more PSA parts. They sell good stuff at great prices. Are you looking at the 16" SS midlength, with wylde chamber and 1:8 twist? If so, that will be a good AR for all of the activities you listed.

Regarding the dust cover. It is unneeded. So, it will be fine if you go with the s&w. I have a S&W M&P15. It is a good AR as well. Very accurate. With that said, i like my PSA more.
 
Bushmaster has a special going on - found it at Cabelas and Bud's for 699 that includes a red dot. Not sure on the quality of the red dot, but for an entry level AR, it's certainly not a bad deal. It was a 16" barrel - if that matters to you.

With that said, I am a stronger fan of the Stag or RRA rifles. For about $100 more, you do get a better built rifle than the bushmaster - having owned both a bushmaster and stag, I can say the Stag felt like a better built, better crafted rifle - IMO.

I have only handled the S&W 1 time at a local store, and decided to go with the Stag - primarily because I had a little extra cash and I am left handed and wanted the left handed AR (Why not :) )

Good luck on your choice.
 
If you want durability, you may want to look at the PSA kits with chrome lined bbls for the same price as the SS bbls. The M&P15 Sport is a darn good rifle for the money.
 
Any further information for the Bushmaster? 1 in 8 or 1 in 9 barrel?

Looks like a good alternative.

Looked at some used stuff on ar15.com equipment exchange and there are a few that interest me.
 
Stay away from Shrubmaster. Their parts are okay, but their assembly flat sucks. The $699 Bushmaster is a very cheap Carbon 15 carbon/polymer matrix receivers with a very light profile bbl. The red dot on it is a cheap Chinese or SE Asian Bushnell. Bushmaster is not a good alternative to S&W.
 
I've already got a lower but my next upper is going to be one of the PSA uppers, probably their 16" SS midlength with one of the float tubes, unless they start to stock 18" uppers. Either option will do you well. Not quite as budget priced as some of their options, but it fits me best. Their CHF CL barrels sound like they are top tier, straight from FN. It all seems almost too good to be true at the price point they are being sold at. Not sure but if I was looking for something to put a huge amount of ammo through that would probably be a better option, though it still sounds like budget is a bit of an issue so the lining/barrel material probably won't make any difference.
 
ugaa - I actually just found out everything you just posted. I will be staying away from that specific unit.

Now leaning toward the PSA unit.Though it will kill me to wait for the upper to be assembled. I am not a crack shot but will I notice a difference in the accucracy between the assembled PSA and the S/W MP15 sport?

Can someone help me with the difference between this unit:

http://palmettostatearmory.com/2276.php

and this one:

http://palmettostatearmory.com/2277.php
 
Last edited:
Which PSA? Probably not either way. The PSA with the float tube and SS barrel would be one that I would expect to shoot better. Their SS barrels are from Wilson. While not a top tier barrel maker, Wilson supplies great blanks for the money. WOA uses Wilson blanks and is known to be one of the best Service Rifle companies out there. RRA, while known to cut a bunch of corners, are also known to produce a very accurate rifle, some of the most accurate near their price point. They start with a Wilson blank.

The point is the blank PSA starts with has potential. How the finish that out could result in a great shooter (1/2" at 100 yards) or a mediocre shooter. They are using decent parts that have the potential. FN makes good barrels. Their AR barrels aren't typically match grade barrels, but they shoot well enough for most and last forever. The S&W barrel is 4140 steel, which is looked down on a little from 4150, but their melonite coating results in a long lasting barrel that has very good potential for accuracy. If they finish it out well is up to them but they use an alright barrel to start.

Of the group, if I were looking for the most accurate, I'd go PSA SS with a float tube. If I was looking for the longest lasting, I'd go with the PSA CHF. If I was looking for a balance of the two, I'd go S&W as it hits a bit of both.
 
Features I would look for, considering your applications-
-16" barrel. Longer would be awkward for house defense and shorter requires a pinned muzzle device which will make it difficult to change the handguards. This last is important because as a beginner with the AR, you won't know what will work best for you until you shoot it for awhile.

-Standard handguards. They are the cheapest and easiest to replace. Unless you know what free float tube you want, start with standard or MOE handguards. If you decide to start with free float tubes, the heaviest and usually most expensive are the quad rails. The Troy Extreme has a rail only along the top, is light, made from aluminum and reasonably priced. Other rails can be added as needed. Carbon fiber handguards are also light, range from reasonable to expensive and some have rails. I chose a carbon fiber rail because they remain cool.

-Avoid the heavy barrel configuration. The heavy barrel does deal with heat better, but it's slower and the extra weight is less pleasant to lug around. I would also avoid the M4 & Government profiles. Both are lighter than the heavy barrel and will serve you well, but the weight is distributed poorly, especially the Gov that is thicker ahead of the front sight base. The notch of the M4 barrel isn't needed and does nothing. A pencil barrel profile makes the most sense. I would prefer a "Sporter" profile, but I haven't seen one for an AR anywhere.

-Look for a 1/8 or 1/7 twist. A 1/9 works well with the shorter bullets (usually of the 55 gr weight & lighter weight class) but the 1/7 & 1/8 will work better with the longer bullets (usually of the 69 gr & heavier weight class) and will still work with the shorter bullets. However, every barrel is a law unto itself. It's possible a barrel with a tighter twist will not work with shorter bullets and one with a looser twist will work fine with the longer bullets. But chances favor the tight twist barrels working with short bullets over loose twists working with long ones. No, you cannot "over stabilize" a bullet. It's either stable or it's not.

-No Rock River two stage triggers. Sorry guys, but the track record of the RR 2 stage is spotty. Some guys are having no trouble at all after thousands of rounds, but others report problems after as few as a thousand. Not just heavy use carbine class guys, but service rifle shooters as well. No AR trigger jobs. Standard AR triggers are case hardened and evidence shows the case hardening varies in depth. Some triggers have enough to give good service life after being smoothed but too many wear out quick because they were stoned too much.

-In spec BCG with properly staked gas key. While it costs money to pressure test and perform a mag particle inspection of a bolt, it assures good quality control is in place. Personally, I don't think this process is necessary for a company to produce a good BCG but it weeds out the lower quality manufacturers (for example, Knights Armament doesn't HPT/MPT their bolts and none ever fail). As cheap insurance, it's best to stick with bolts that have been HPT/MPT until learning more about what bolts & carriers are problematic and which can be relied on to give good service. Proper gas key staking is a must.

-Look for a milspec receiver extension. They are made from 7075 alloy and it's easier to find stocks to fit. Commercial RE's are made from a softer 6061 and are of a different diameter and save you no money.

Things not needed
-Dust covers & forward assists. IT's ok to choose a rifle with either or both, but they are not needed.

-Chrome lined barrel. If choosing a carbine strictly for house defense and carbine classes, a chrome lined barrel will extend barrel life at the expense of a little bit of accuracy. Still, it will take several thousand rounds to wear out a non-lined barrel. A barrel coated with a nitro carborizing process is also a good choice. The barrel of the S&W Sport is nitro carborized.

-Fancy coatings on the bolt carrier. While cycling feels smoother and they are supposed to be easier to clean, the coatings don't add anything to the function of the rifle.

-Fancy buttstocks- Save money and weight by getting a good, basic stock. The Magpul MOE is a good base line.

-Lots of rail estate. A well equipped HD carbine should have a close range optic (like the Aimpoint Micro) a good flashlight and a sling. You don't need much rail estate to mount those items.

-Hammer forged barrels. While they are good barrels, you do not need to spend extra money just to get one. However, there is no reason to not get one either
 
Will the PSA kit upper have a rail preinstalled? If not what is it going to cost in order to mount a red dot?
 
The difference in the two PSA kits you're looking at is that the second kit, the MOE kit, has Magpul MOE (Magpul Original Equipment) furniture. The MOE stuff is targeted at AR manufacturers to use as OEM furniture on their rifles. despite the targeted market, Magpul still sells a ton of it as retail upgrades to base furniture. $50 is the retail price of the buttstock alone. It's a very good value for what you get in that kit if you want nicer furniture.

Will the PSA kit upper have a rail preinstalled? If not what is it going to cost in order to mount a red dot?
The flat top upper already has a Picatinny rail. Put the red dot on the upper. Cost depends on your sight & mount options. Both of the kits you're looking at have fixed front sight bases. Add a rear sight of your choice - http://palmettostatearmory.com/backup-sights.php - and you can wait on the red dot. I'm partial to the Daniel Defense & Troy A1.5 units, but others prefer a folding rear sight. All of the rear sights PSA is selling are good - just stay away from the NcStar stuff. Buy what you like.
 
More questions as I am torn between the MP and the PSA option.

How difficult is it to assemble the lower? I am not a mechanical genius by any means. I have the ability to clean and care for my other firearms (mossberg 500, Glock 17, and a Mossberg Plinkster). I am actually afraid of messing up the build and throwing away money.

After doing all the neccesary fee's/shipping/parts it looks like both options come out to almost exactly the same price. Amazing.
 
More questions as I am torn between the MP and the PSA option.

How difficult is it to assemble the lower? I am not a mechanical genius by any means. I have the ability to clean and care for my other firearms (mossberg 500, Glock 17, and a Mossberg Plinkster). I am actually afraid of messing up the build and throwing away money.

After doing all the neccesary fee's/shipping/parts it looks like both options come out to almost exactly the same price. Amazing.


Go with the PSA, they use AP uppers and lowers with good parts in them. Assembling a lower is easy, lots of how to's on line.
 
I vote PSA. I have no experience with them but I haven't heard a single complaint around the boards and the specs look top notch on paper.
 
I have been convinced. I will be purchasing the PSA and assembling it myself. I went with PSA for a few reasons. First, the price is very similar to the M&P Sport price (less than 50 dollars difference). Second the PSA is Mil-Spec and I feel that if SHTF it will last longer. Third building my own lower will help in learning the actual weapon.

It really is too bad that I have to wait 7-10 days for the upper to show up. However, I guess I can order that lower first and get the FFL business out of the way.

Anyone have any insight on the Magpull Back Up Iron Sights?
 
The Magpul MBUS is fine as a true back up and for plinking. I have a set as back up on my HD/SHTF AR. The Magpul MBUS is reliable.

If it will be a while before you get optics, i would get some good metal irons. Something with adjustmens similar to A2 sights. The A2 system is a great system. It is a good system to learn and you can rely on it.

Something like the LMT rear
LMT%20Rear%20Sight%20L8A-2.jpg

and

the LMT front
LMT%20Front%20Sight%20L8FS-2T.jpg

both are at Bravo Co.

As far as assembling your AR:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/226782_Assemble_your_own_LOWER__UPPER__FREE_FLOAT__TRIGGER__GAS_BLOCK___Step_by_step_instructions_.html

and watch the Brownells videos:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=11004/learn/
 
pulled the trigger on the unit this morning. ordered lower unit, a mag, and stock tool. order the upper kit on monday.

oh how i wish that i did not have to order online and wait.

Upper:

PSA 16" SS Upper Kit ( http://palmettostatearmory.com/2276.php)

Lower:

PSA Lower ( http://palmettostatearmory.com/1560.php)

Iron Rear Sight:

Leapers Rear (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ARR1...um=Social&utm_campaign=ARR140BlogSocial072310) - Kind of a price point buy at this point. I figure it will at least be good enough for me to get use to the firearm. I can upgrade easily later.

Mag:

DH 30rnd 5.56 ( http://palmettostatearmory.com/1767.php) Bought this simply for price.

Also bought a Stock wrench tool. From my reading of the lower assembly guides it is not necessary but it is surely nice. For 7 bucks it seemed trivial not to include it.
 
Last edited:
LWG,

Sounds like a good setup. Those DH mags are very good quality, and a great buy at $10/ea. You're spot on with the choice to get a stock wrench for $7. As you say, no reason not to at that price.
 
Thanks everyone for the advice! I will put up pictures when she is finished. Not to mention some pictures of the first targets post zero'ing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top