Lookin' forward to getting a (top)break

[C5rider]

I've gotten a wild hair to pick up a nice top-break revolver. I've done some scouring of the 'net and found many examples of fine-working revolvers that have some wear or pitting.

I really dig the longer barrels and I'd like to get it in 32 or 38 caliber. I've looked at the Uberti guns ($$$) and then I found this one on GB.

I've purchased guns on a whim before and I've been lucky a few times. But, I'd much rather make an informed decision before I jump in with both feet. The fact that these guns are over 100 years old means that they most likely aren't going to rust away before I can find one that suits me.

I'm welcoming any and all info (about this one or what to look for) so that when the time comes, I'll feel more confident in the purchase, having both eyes open.

The cost of this one is higher than many of the others. Is it a "rare" gun as noted? Like I said, I like the longer barrel and, I like the exposed hammer. The gun won't be a CCW or shot often, but it will be required to shoot. I do like a nice looking gun as well.

thanks for any help and direction/websites that may help me in making an INFORMED decision.

 

[Liberty1776]

It looks to be in very good shape, but I'm not sure it's worth that money. I bought the same gun in .38 S&W (6") a few months ago on GunBroker for $149

 

[C5rider]

Thanks Liberty!

I was curious about that. It does look in pretty good shape and has all the buzzwords of a great bargain. But not knowing anything about these, I figured that it would be prudent to do a little investigating first.

 

[bannockburn]

C5rider

I like the old top-breaks as well and this one looks to be pretty decent but does seem a bit pricey. You mention the Uberti replicas of the S&W models; are you more interested in something made during that era (historical significance), or would you prefer a more modern replica (practical application)?

 

[karlsgunbunker]

I'm not sure why but the prices on these are going up.
A lot of the .22lr versions have been going for $400 - $500+.

They are very cool revolvers. I'm amazed how many are still practically new, there are some very beautiful examples out there.

I do a search weekly for H&R, Harrington & Richardson, NEF and New England Firearms.
Then sort by revolvers, quite a few nice firearms available.
I've seen the prices double in just a couple months.
I'm hoping it's just the panic. A lot of the .22lr are 8 and 9 shot so maybe that's the draw.

 

[Old Fuff]

That particular revolver was a mid-range quality one made to be exclusively used with black powder cartridges. during the late 1890's and early 1900's Shootin them with today's smokeless powder ones isn't recommended.

For $400.00 you should be able to find a Smith & Wesson, but again most of them were made during the black-powder era.

As an alternative, I suggest that you look for an Enfield or Webley, made just before or during World War Two in England. Most have 5" barrels, and are also chambered in .38 S&W but safe to shoot with smokeless loads. Usually the price runs around $300 or less.

 

[ZVP]

The H&R's have always been kinda high just because they shoot cheap ammo and you can shoot em a LOT. You'll always pay high for one compared to a similar swing-out H&R.
Are you sure you want to bet your lifr on a low powered .38 S&W? For a fun gun they are neat, but I much prefer the .38 Special.
I had a sweet .38S&W Iver Johnson years ago and the hammerless top break was a ball to shoot! The IJ prices are sometimes lower than H&R tho quality seems the same.
ZVP

 

[C5rider]

EXCELLENT info!

Thanks guys.

are you more interested in something made during that era (historical significance), or would you prefer a more modern replica (practical application)?

Yes. By that I mean, I really like the style of these guns. If I got an early model, I'd shoot it a little and ogle it a LOT! If I got a later one like the 38spl version of the Uberti, I'd do a fair share of show and tell, while at the range, shootin' the tar out of it!

I know that doesn't help at all, but it could go either way. If the owner would come down on the price, I'd be interested, even though it's older. If I could find one newer, I'd be happy with that as well. I'm interested enough that I'm motivated but not specific enough to know EXACTLY what I want yet. Thus, I'm learning.

i did miss out on an early Marlin revolver. It was the engraved one with the pearl grips. Not my photo, but it looked just like this one. It had a few issues, the cylinder would ride up with the ejector and it had some finish wear. I wasn't sure how complicated these things were and like I said, I really want it to be ABLE to shoot, even if I don't shoot it often.

 

[C5rider]

No problem whatsoever with the Iver Johnsons. Even though I understand that many of these guns were designed to carry, that's not why I want one so, having that thumb spur on the back is more of a necessity than a hindrance.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

There are a couple of things you should know. Most of the guns you are looking at are small frame or medium frames. The Top Breaks made by Uberti today are all large frames. They are replicas of the S&W Schofield and Russian revolvers, originally chambered for 44 and 45 caliber cartridges. These are big guns, even the Schofield that is chambered for 38 Special is a large frame revolver.

The other thing you should know is, like Old Fuff said, a lot of these older Top Breaks were designed for Black Powder and should not be fired with modern Smokeless ammunition, despite what you may hear. Take a look at that Iver Johnson Top Break. Notice the way the little owl is looking forward? That means it is a Black Powder gun. Iver Johnson completely redesigned their revolvers for Smokeless Powder around the turn of the Century. An IJ that is OK to shoot with Smokeless will look like this, with the owl facing backwards.



And $400 is way too much to pay for an Iver Johnson or a Harrington and Richardson. I paid $100 for that IJ of mine a few years ago. They were cheap guns when they were made. Smith and Wesson made Top Break revolvers of much higher quality.

I only paid $200 for this nice old S&W Double Action 38.



I don't remember right now what I paid for these S&W lemon squeezers, but I'm pretty sure it was not $400. Much better quality than a IJ or a H&R. Of course, I never fire them with anything but cartridges loaded with Black Powder.





The one other thing you should know is, if you want to shoot Top Breaks with modern Smokeless ammo, other than an Enfield or a Webley, save up and buy one of the Ubertis. They are made with modern steel and can take the pressures generated by Smokeless ammo. However, be forewarned, the Uberti Top Breaks do not function very well with Black Powder.

 

[C5rider]

Thank you Driftwood! That definitely helps explain a lot about these little guns. I can see why enthusiasts choose a niche within the hobby and go after it with a vengeance. There's some neat stuff out there!

I'm going to keep my eyes open for a deal and I'll keep researching these guns up to, and including when I get one. Very interesting history indeed.

A quick question on the b/p or smokeless ammo. Do you guys reload your own? If so, does just a simple SP primer light off the black powder? What powder do you use. I've got some FFFG for my 44 cap and ball revolver. Would that work? How many grains? How does it compare with smokeless? Is it a fairly straight forward process or, does it take a lot of effort to get it correct? I'm sure you all are not looking for max loads.

I currently reload for several calibers so, the process isn't foreign, just a new way of doing it for me. Please keep the info flowing. I am learning and, possibly other readers might gain some insights as well.

thanks again!

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Loading Black Powder cartridges is very simple. You simply put in enough powder so that when the bullet is seated and crimped, the powder is compressed by about 1/16"-1/8". Be sure there is no air space left in the cartridge. That's all there is to it. Yes, FFFg is fine. I usually use Schuetzen because it burns a bit cleaner, but Goex is fine too.

Black Powder is easier to ignite than Smokeless, so yes, standard primers are fine. Black Powder also delivers lower pressure and a milder pressure curve than Smokeless, so it is less punishing on the gun. The only difficulty is that real Black Powder works best with bullets lubed with Black Powder compatible bullet lube, such as SPG or other home made concoctions. Using conventional bullets with conventional modern bullet lube usually causes hard caked fouling that is difficult to remove. However, there are several Black Powder substitutes that can be used with conventionally lubed bullets.

American Pioneer Powder was developed so that it could be used with conventional modern bullet lube without the need for special BP compatible bullet lube.

http://www.americanpioneerpowder.com/

The same thing with Hodgdon's 777, except 777 is about 15% more powerful than real Black Powder, so it might be a tad hot for some of the older, lightweight guns.

 

[cheesebigot]

A good top-break doesn't have to be 100+ years old. One of my favorite revolvers is a top-break, the Enfield No 2 Mk 1 (not my auction).

You mentioned .38 caliber...good news! The Enfield is .38 S&W and shoots reloaded cast bullets just fine. What more could you want?

 

[soonerfan85]

This old S&W 3rd model from late 1880s set me back all of $200. One of these days I'm gonna find some ammo and get some fool to shoot her.

 

[makkitty]

I love my Webleys. I have a Mk III 38 S&W (Civilian) and a Mk IV 38 S&W (War Finish). As cheese said, the 38 is easy to reload, and I find the recoil comfortable and the accuracy fantastic.

The only think you have to be careful of with break-tops is lock-up. Make sure when you cock the hammer, the cylinder locks up tight. Webley's are slightly different as they will play some non-cocked, but if they play cocked they need work.

Let me know if you have any questions about the old girls. I love them, and while not an expert, I'll give it my best try. ; )

 

[C5rider]

Well, I went and did it!

Found me a top break that I feel, didn't break the bank.

Went to a local gun show and a feller there had a bunch of S&Ws. Buried deep in his collection was a 38 S&W-spittin' top-break wearin a nickle finish. At least MOST of the nickle finish.

It was a 5-inch barrel, like I wanted and right on top of the barrel was stamped "for 38 S&W Ctgs". Just down from that on the driver's side of the barrel was "Secret Service Special".

Now, before you go all poo-poo and send hate mail telling me that this gun, in NO WAY was ever issued for Secret Service, service, I know.

Here's what it IS, so far as I can tell.

The name Secret Service Special name was a trademark of the Fred Biffar Co., which was a mail order hardware company out of Chicago from the 1880s to about 1920. They were in the same type of business as Sears and Montgomery Ward.

This pistol was made by many different manufacturers. I believe mine was made by Meriden as it has a frame-mounted firing pin. It is relatively tight, has MOST of it's nickle coating and the grips are pretty nice with the cursive SSS on the grip tops.

Now, I know that these are not very high quality guns. That's okay, as I don't look forward to putting a bunch of rounds through it. I've got 38s to shoot. This one is simply because there was a top-break slot in my safe that needed fillin. Got it for a fraction of the cost of the original one I posted and, I LIKE it.

I'll be able to post pics tomorrow.

 

[Old Fuff]

Well I tried to save you, but ya' wouldn't listen... Could have got ya' one brand new for $3.75

In 1909...

That poor little revolver probably never knew who its Daddy was, as it could have been Meriden Arms, Iver Johnson, or Harrington & Richardson.

Look for a serial number, possibly under the stocks, but if you remove them be very careful as they tend to crack and chip.

 

[C5rider]

Thanks for the warning Fuff!

Yeah, um, I'll take about 20 of those for $3.75! BUT, they have to be in 1920 condition!

What research I've done on these guns leads me to believe that this is a Meriden. It has the firing pin in the frame and it doesn't have the safety. Serial number is under the trigger guard and on the frame under grip (198xx). There is no patent date and the grips have the cursive sSs on them. Of course, it IS the Secret Service Special!

Bore has some pitting and the shiny stuff is gone in places, but it locks up fairly tight. Not a worry as I'm not looking at making it a range toy. I would like to put at least one cylinder-full through it though.

I've heard/read recommendations of shooting black powder only through these guns and wondered if that is merely for safety's sake or, if the metallurgy simply isn't there.

The reason that I wanted one of these is because the first handgun I ever purchased was a break top and I guess I just wanted to re-live my youth. I was 12 and I paid the guy $40!

I shot a bunch of 38 S&W rounds through that gun without a problem, other than it shaved lead like a bad metal barber. Was I just incredibly lucky? Was that/this gun designed for the higher pressure rounds?

 

[Old Fuff]

It looks like a Meriden to me, which would make it earlier production/slightly lower quality then the other mentioned makers.

I presume that you can rotate the cylinder when the trigger is in the forward position. If so, "fairly tight lockup" is misleading. If you open the barrel and watch while cocking the hammer you may notice that as the trigger comes back a little nubbin on top of it is rotated into the bottom of the frame's cylinder window, where in a more modern revolver you'd expect to see the ball on the cylinder stop. The notches in the cylinder only have one shoulder.

When the trigger is at its most rearward position the hand will (hopefully) have rotated the cylinder to the point where the shoulder on the notch is pressed against the nubbin, which gives the appearance that the cylinder is solidly locked, which to a degree it is - but only by the strength of a very lightweight hand pressing against the ratchet tooth, and under circumstances where any alignment between the chamber and bore is questionable. What you usually get is pie-plate accuracy at very close distances.

Personally I have no interest spending money for ammunition to shoot in lesser quality handguns where miserable accuracy is predictable. I get no glory in producing a point-blank target that looks like I was using a shotgun, which I can do of course while using a much better choice in revolvers (or whatever).

On the other hand I have a little 1880's S&W .38 DA top break that has positive cylinder stop and locks up absolutely tight with no rotational or end-shake movement. The chambers have been "ranged" using a plug gauge and found to be perfect so far as chamber/bore alignment is concerned. I have on occasion used this piece of s--t to humiliate someone who thought whatever they were shooting was much, much better.

Carry on.

 

[C5rider]

If so, "fairly tight lockup" is misleading.

You are correct Fuff. It does rotate when the trigger is all the way forward. I should have been more clear in that "fairly tight" is when the hammer is pulled back in single action shooting.

I had wondered if the lack of any locking when un-cocked is indicative of an earlier model. I believe the earlier DA Colts were similar until somewhere right around the turn of the century? Didn't the cylinder receive a second locking notch to accomplish this? I could be totally barking up the wrong tree on that one though.

Yeah, Meriden (lesser quality)... My luck huh?

Made me real proud when I was looking for info and found statements like "Iver Johnson is "X" value, H&R is "X-10%", H&A is "X-15%" and Meriden is "X- well, why don't you just melt it down now!"

Doesn't really matter to me though. I didn't buy it as an investment. Besides, which is more "valueable", a gun that is too precious to shoot (but you'll never sell), or one that helps you re-live your misspent youth for a couple of bux?

Got some relatives that don't necessarily make me too proud at times also, but they're still family!

 

[HarcyPervin]

We just got this a month or so back... I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet.

Maybe this weekend...



Don't mean to hijack your thread, but I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with the Uberti Schofields?

 

[C5rider]

We just got this a month or so back... I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet.

Maybe this weekend...

NICE!

 

[clang]

You can still occasionally find one in .44 too:

This is my S&W DA in .44 Russian

 

[C5rider]

Now see,

that's just purdy too!

I've seen the 44 Russian guns and wondered, are they sized slightly smaller than 44 specials? Black powder?

Last thing I need is ANOTHER caliber to reload.

 

[Onty]

I wish somebody starts making this one: