Looking for affordable first AR
- Thread starter Lou McGopher
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Lou McGopher
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john5036 said:
I know I let the dished build up a couple days sometimes, but my house can't be that harsh of an environment. Are these rifles all that undependable, or has the ultra-reliability of most modern ARs got people a little bit spoiled? The opinions and reviews I've read of the rifles I listed above were all along the lines of "I've put 1000-2000 rounds through it with no problems."
ugaarguy
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The M&P-15T is using the Melonite 1:8 5R bbl. now as well. The T has Troy flip up sights, a Troy free-floated quad rail, a dust cover, a forward assist, and a standard trigger guard. The Sport has a trigger guard integral to the lower forging, standard handguards, F height FSB, LMT style A2 fixed BUIS, no FA, no dust cover. The guts - The bbl, BCG, LPK, receiver extension (AKA buffer tube), buffer, and buffer spring are the same. The F height FSB is the same as on the other M&P-15 models with A-frame FSBs. I've pointed this out before: VLTOR's high end MUR (Modular Upper Receiver) is offered in two configurations, one of which doesn't have a forward assist. From hands on evaluation of the Sport compared to high end ARs I own (DDM4V1) or have owned (Noveske, LMT, Colt, S&W M&P-15 A), S&W cut corners in the least critical places on the M&P Sport. They retained the most critical parts, and kept the assembly at the same high standard as on the rest of their M&P-15 rifles.
I wouldn't keep typing about these things if I wasn't so impressed with the level of rifle S&W is putting out at the price point in the M&P Sport. I hope y'all find my observations objective & helpful.
Lou McGopher
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I haven't seen any of these for $750 or less.
Well, the good news is that if you use an AR your dishes stand a good chance of not being hurt
Your home's layout is your business, but unless you live in a mansion with long hallways and plenty of distance between points of cover, a shorter ranged weapon such as pistol or shotgun will most often have quicker target acquisition, and the shotgun reduces dependency on fine motor skills in a high tense situation happening in your home. That's a safe generalization based on the info you provided. You could be fully trained, and very capable for all we know. With regard to the Sport, undependable? No. It's a heck of a gun for as little as $550-$700, but it's also a marketed Sport rifle, and that doesn't spell much confidence for home/property defense given their other offerings, and for the pickiest of AR enthusiasts who as you know are a really opinionated crowd. While it may be the lower end of their tactical line, the rifle hasn't been around long enough for that HD vote of confidence. I'd like that for a 2nd or 3rd AR though, it's got some serious features for the price. The minimalist build without the FA or dust cover is also very neat.
I think you are asking the right questions, my experience was similar. My opinion is that your $700 budget is close enough to suggest saving a bit more and getting an overall better AR for your stated needs. It's not meant to be a negative review of the options in your list, and I'm not towing any particular reputable brand in their stead.
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ugaarguy
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That's a rather misinformed generalization. A defensive style long gun (18.5 to 20 inch bbl shotgun, medium caliber carbine; not a big scoped magnum hunting rifle) is going to have faster target acquisition. The three points of contact - buttstock on shoulder, grip on stock, and grip on forearm - of the long gun greatly aid in target acquisition, recoil management, stability, and follow-up shots.a shorter ranged weapon such as pistol or shotgun will most often have quicker target acquisition, and the shotgun reduces dependency on fine motor skills in a high tense situation happening in your home. That's a safe generalization based on the info you provided. You could be fully trained, and very capable for all we know.
While long guns reduce dependency on fine motor skills when compared to handguns (see previous paragraph), shotguns do not reduce dependency on fine motor skills over carbines. At short ranges, the shot pattern does not open up, and you still have to aim the shotgun. Many experienced defensive shotgunners prefer tighter patterning defense loads to extend effective range as well. Shotguns also have a fair amount of recoil in appropriate defensive loadings, even with reduced recoil buckshot loads. Go take a read over in the shotguns forum here; and take a look at the posts by Dave McCracken, sm, Lee Lapin, and the other gurus in regard to shotgun fit. Fitting a shotgun involves swapping or modifying the stock, fitting a recoil pad, and, in some cases, shimming the stock. In fact, my 870P stock is off with the local shotgun stock guru being shortened, and having a recoil pad fitted.
In comparison, a good carbine (like the AR-15 in this case) has light recoil, and low muzzle rise; both of which lead to faster, more accurate follow-up shots. An AR with a collapsible stock is easily fitted by simply adjusting the stock to the user. Mounting optics is easier on an AR as well. Fast initial shots with minimal dependence on fine motor skills practically begs for a quality non-magnified red dot.
I'd be one such picky AR enthusiast. You may wish to re-read post #28. If you want even more detail on the abuse I've already applied to a Sport read here:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=597230&page=2 .
gotboostvr
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If you HAVE to have an AR-15 for home defense, and occasional plinking the S&W's seem fine.
I have a BCM ( and a nice custom built AK 47) but I rely on my cheap $150 mossberg 500 and a $250 dollar S&W 19-3 (.357 revolver) call me old school. I don't foresee the NEED for 30 rounds on tap, 11 rounds suits me more than adequately.
Plus, there's no argument whether they're reliable or powerful enough.
I have a BCM ( and a nice custom built AK 47) but I rely on my cheap $150 mossberg 500 and a $250 dollar S&W 19-3 (.357 revolver) call me old school. I don't foresee the NEED for 30 rounds on tap, 11 rounds suits me more than adequately.
Plus, there's no argument whether they're reliable or powerful enough.
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I wouldn't say that's misinformed, there's a lot of diverse info out there trying to cover a near infinite amount of HD scenarios. I've already made note that there are many schools of thought. Yours is one of them, but please don't think I'm trying to confine the OP to a single one. I've read your posts before and I do very much appreciate them and I do not disagree or suggest otherwise as to completely ignore yours. Others and myself simply suggested that the OP's budget is too little right now, for his rifle purchase to be primarily HD. If the OP (whether he meant it this way, not so sure) wants the rifle as an eventual HD AR, by all means that's his decision, and not what we are addressing. I like the Sport.
I read your background, and that's your training. There's alternatives. I'm not making an egregious claim that HD ARs are inferior and should never be utilized. A tactical length shotgun, and a variety of shells, will rarely NOT be adequate inside a home. My chopped down to 29" pump will get the job done in my home... but that's MY home. The OP needs to make his own distinctions.
The strict budget of our OP will be hard-pressed to include a quality non-magnified red dot even with purchase of the Sport. That's the only place where I'm not encouraging his stated intentions for the gun as a primary HD. I'm not suggesting that the Sport will never be an HD when he can expand his budget.
UGA, if you can recommend a quality red-dot to go along with the Sport, that won't break the $700 hard budget the OP has, I encourage you or other readers to do so. The only thing I know about optics is that for a $700 budget, it's hard to include one.
I'm not bashing the Sport at all. There's been a few really good experiences, and not very if any negative ones. You might be picky, but there are those here much pickier who'll start complaining about metallurgy, chrome, etc... just like they did in the thread you linked. It'll take time to win those people over, and hopefully the OP will realize that more than half of what this board thinks he needs, he'll only need probably half of that.
OP: UGA makes great points for consideration in your decision and budget. I trust that you've got plenty of point/counterpoint to help you narrow down what's best for where you are. Good luck.
Also, thanks UGA for the exchange. I learned a few things and my perspective has been broadened.
*NOVA*
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I'm happy with my Del-ton, 16" mid-length. If you go with standard options (no upgrades) then the price is right at $750.00. It took 8 weeks from the time I ordered it to arrival at my FFL. Only regret is I should have gone with a 1 in 7" twist barrel, but overall its a great MIL Spec gun. Comes with two mags, sling, case and cleaning kit. BTW after six weeks I called the customer service and convinced them to send me a free T-shirt!Try a Del-Ton. They recently started making complete rifles, not just uppers. Friend of mine picked one up from her local dealer for $650 plus tax. 16" barrel, flat top or a2 handle (your choice). It has the forward assist, dustcover, and all the other parts you'd expect.
They're made in North Carolina, so it's a US product too! Nice looking guns. I think the MSRP on them is about $750, but a dealer should be able to work out less.
...
+1. I bought the Sport mainly because it came with a melonite treated barrel at a price point that other manufacturers offer unlined barrels, polymer lowers, etc. I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the rest of the rifle. I wouldn't trade the Sport for anything else that I've seen on the market at $750 or less. I might consider a BCM or Spikes Tactical because those appear to be good value at around $800.
ugaarguy
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Based on those two statements from geniusiknowit in his initial post, I'm assuming the $750 hard budget is for the rifle, and that the intent is to add optics / make minor upgrades on a separate budget later - OP correct me if this is wrong. The one immediate upgrade I'd make to the Sport is spending $25 to get heat shielded handguards on it. Otherwise, it's GTG out of the box.
John, please also understand that I'm not opposed to shotguns for HD either. Probably kinda obvious with the comments about getting my 870P stock fitted
. In fact, on an even tighter budget, I'm a big proponent of Plain Jane, US made, pumps. As you state, they're almost always more than adequate to do the job. The low price of reliable basic models leaves funds for fitting & practice shells. On the AR-15 side, I suppose I should expound upon my reasoning. I've seen folks with no shooting background take to AR-15s quickly. Once they get past the loud report, the low recoil makes them easy. Very good stock sights help as well. I've also seen folks with extensive backgrounds with traditional hunting rifles & shotguns take to AR-15s quickly. For those folks, the sound and the recoil aren't the problem, but the looks. Once they get past the looks that group also takes quickly to the great irons, and realize that rifle is actually comfortable even though it feels a little different. Much as I wish I could credit Eugene Stoner with those great sights, I can't. Starting with the the '03 A3; and tracing through the Garand, to the M14, to the M16; it's pretty clear where the sights came from. I guess about 100 years of development doesn't hurt.
I can't make a recommendation if the optic must be included at the $750 hard budget. I can suggest, based on reviews from other members here whom also have known backgrounds, that the OP look at the Vortex StrikeFire for $150. I'd still recommend using the funds for other things: $25 handguard upgrade already mentioned, a light & mount, spare mags, and AMMO. But as you say John,
That may be the best advice in the thread.
OP you've seen some views here that are at times complimentary, and at other times divergent. As John says, make your own distinctions. Evaluate what everyone here has posted, and figure out what fits your situation. As the sages here say - it's your gunfight, none of us will be there to fight it for you.
gamestalker
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I bought a Rock River and have had no problems with it what so ever.
~Abstract~
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DPMS
Cheap.
Spend your cash on red dot and ammo.
Cheap.
Spend your cash on red dot and ammo.
HOLY DIVER
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well this is a very interesting thread. personaly i don't see 1 thing wrong with owning a rifle that you can go out and plink with and also use for HD.i bought a 590A1 for HD and its not much good for anything outher than that....sure can't dove hunt with it. but an AR...you can go 2 the range,leave there and go coyote hunting,bring it home and have it for HD. i've seen lotts of tests and a .223 is alot less likely 2 end up in somebody elses house. 9mm...buckshot etc will go through more walls than a .223/i personaly prefer a chrome lined barrel so i voted Stag but the Smith is a good AR can't argue that. my personal favorite AR is BCM i LOVE mine but its gonna go over budget. with that said i never flip my dust cover up and i've never needed my foward assist.....
Check Del-ton and also CMMG bargin bins. CMMGs are sold out now but call them and see if and when they expect to have more. $650 out the door for chrome lined or $599 w/o chrome. Just a thought. There is a thread going on now about Del-tons and many of us here at THR have one. CMMGs same thing; both are within your price range and good options..
Lakedaemonian
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The MP15 sport is a quality weapon. If you know ARs and have personally inspected one it would be clear. The gas key is properly staked, Bolt is MP stamped, reciever extension is of Mil-Spec measurments, Upper/Lower fit is solid (no need for reciever spacer), the barrel is Melonite treated and of similar quality to chrome lining, barrel is chambered in 5.56 and has a 1x8 twist, which is a great "middle of the road" twist rate for ARs. All in all, it is a great rifle for the money. The dust cover is an un-necessary tool for most applications. Anyone who has been overseas and used their dust cover, knows the moon dust gets in the gun anyway, regardless of the use of your dust cover.
Lakedaemonian
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Indeed... DPMS= Cheap
Heres a better one... DPMS is to ARs ..as.. Century is to AK's
DPMS doesnt care what they send out the door. Not on a personal note anyway. My first AR was a DPMS. The gas block came off after 2 mags and the Trigger pin was installed backwards. (Yes it can be installed backwards, and if you didnt know that then you are probably a DPMS gunsmith)
Right on! got mine for $556 a month ago.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/70770
(ignore the scope in the pic. it doesnt come with it.)
Johnny Lightning
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geniusiknowit, I was in the market for an affordable AR recently and decided to shop around and get some info in the process. What I found is that alot of the parts that go into the different AR15's are made by the same father company w/ different barrels and some other parts thrown in to make them slightly different from eachother. You can look at the upper of most ar15 and there is a little stamp that you will find on almost every one....since that is the case and most parts are interchangable it doest really matter which one you go with. Some AR15 have better triggers then others and better sights but like I said all of that can be changed or worked on by yourself if you are slightly handy. I have a Bushmaster lower and a Rock River upper and LOVE the combination. I just recently worked on the gritty trigger myself and now have a respectably smooth trigger and have basic iron sights which i actually really like and will probably not change out. I feel that you can EASILY spend within your budget if you shop around and are not afraid to purchase slightly used components to an AR15.
chris in va
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I have 1200 rounds through my Sport with two stoppages due to out of spec reloads. It's range pick-up brass, so that tells you something.
The only thing I can suggest for the Sport is a heat shielded handguard. The stock one is just plastic and gets hot.
I haven't even bothered to replace the stock. It works fine. All I did so far was get a riser for my Millett red dot and get a GI web sling, and buy a 30rd PMag.
The only thing I can suggest for the Sport is a heat shielded handguard. The stock one is just plastic and gets hot.
I haven't even bothered to replace the stock. It works fine. All I did so far was get a riser for my Millett red dot and get a GI web sling, and buy a 30rd PMag.
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Lou McGopher
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No, this is correct. The budget is just for the rifle, because I am allowing a certain amount of additional funds for decent optics. Sorry if there was any confusion over that.
These are all useful responses. Thank you, guys.
I'm looking at different possibilities for building one. But I do like that the Sport takes a lot of guesswork out of it and still comes in at or below what it looks like I could build one for.
HOLY DIVER
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when u buy your rifle remember we need pics and and a range report
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