Looking for some f/l bushing die help

[tcoz]

This is my first attempt at using a Whidden f/l bushing die and I’m having the problem exhibited in the pictures. I know that you’re not supposed to size down more than .008 in one step but this case only started out at .338 and I’m using a .335 bushing so there shouldn’t be a problem. Obviously I’m doing something very wrong so any help would be appreciated. The case is Hornady Match.

 

[Walkalong]

Turn the bushing over? Either that or it is defective. And raise it up a bit.

 

[243winxb]

Is the outside neck diameter the same , front to back? The photo makes it look larger at the case mouth.

Looks like the bushing is set to low.

Is there a bevel on the bushing mouth, should be.

Lube the outside of the neck.


Using the expander?

 

[243winxb]

Whats the brass look like if there is no bushing in the FL die?

 

[tcoz]

243winxb,
-outside neck diameter is the same but less than .335, more like .333 to .334
-there is a bevel on the bushing mouth
-I’m lubing neck with Imperial wax
-without a bushing inserted, the neck looks normal after running it through the die
-I’m not using the expander

How is bushing height set other than screwing the die in or out which would then change the shoulder setback?

 

[444]

I am not familiar with the die you are using. And I am not completely sure what the problem is. I think you want to size less of the neck ?

I am using a Redding Type S, Bushing Style, Full Sizing Die.
You take a loaded round and measure the neck OD. You then choose a bushing that is some amount smaller than that: something .001" smaller or so depending on how much neck tension you want.
On my die, there is a knob at the top that adjusts the decapping rod, but also adjusts how much of the neck gets sized. Not sure what you have on your die to adjust how much of the neck gets sized.

 

[243winxb]

The red marked unit is moved up, out of the die. Letting you size less of the neck.

The circled part is the stop for the bushing. Its adjustable so the decapping pin can be moved up or down.

Internet photo. Redding Type S Fl die.

 

[tcoz]

The internals of the Whidden die look the same as the Redding Type S. I’ve removed the decapping pin since I don’t use it so it shouldn’t matter where the knob is set other than it shouldn’t be moved once the wheel that determines how much of the neck is sized has been set. Am I right so far?
How much of the neck is usually sized? 1/2? I'll try adjusting the amount of the neck that gets sized but I’m not sure how that would alleviate my problem.

I’ve been working on this all afternoon and I’m too tired to try anything else tonight for fear of overlooking something so I’ll take a fresh look at everything after I get back from the range tomorrow afternoon.

 

[243winxb]

How much of the neck is usually sized? 1/2? I'll try adjusting the amount of the neck that gets sized but I’m not sure how that would alleviate my problem.

In your photo, it looks like the bushing is hitting the case shoulder. Not what you want.

Size all or part of the neck, your choice. Do not bump the shoulder with the bushing. Its not that type, at least i dont think it is?

My Redding bushing can not be adjusted down far enough to contact the shoulder. It comes with in about a 16th of an inch.

For an auto rifle, size all of the neck.

I size 1/2 of the neck for accuracy in a single shot rifle. The unsized part expands to the chamber, centering the round in the chamber.


The Redding needs the bushing to float/rattle in the die for alignment.

 

[Walkalong]

How is bushing height set other than screwing the die in or out which would then change the shoulder setback?

Adjust the larger knurled black ring on the black insert that holds the rod for the decapping pin. Then adjust the depth of the decapping pin by turning it in or out and then locking it with the small knurled black ring.

 

[243winxb]

Whidden f/l bushing die

Not sure how it compares to a Redding.

Nice photo Walkalong.

 

[tcoz]

I believe they’re virtually identical. All of the parts look exactly alike.

 

[tcoz]

So, this is my attempt at using the .335 bushing this morning. Neck diameter of this case started out at .343 so I’m looking for a .008 change which shouldn’t require a step down with a larger bushing initially. I adjusted the bushing to make sure it didn’t bump the shoulder and this time I did use the expander ball.
The post sizing O.D. of the neck is .335-.336 which I think eliminates the possibility that the bushing might be undersized. When I lowered the ram after running the case in, there was a ring (sliver) of the brass that had been removed, sitting on the shoulder. One end of the bushing is very slightly tapered to ease case insertion and that’s the end that I inserted facing down.
I’m pretty much at a loss for where to go from this point. I can look for some cases that start out closer to the .335 endpoint and see what they do but I’m not sure that would solve anything.
I may just end up going back to using the Lee Collet Neck Sizer and using the Whidden die as a body die only.
Any suggestions fellas?

I just sent a link to this thread to Whidden. I’m anxious for their response tomorrow.

 

[someguy2800]

If it were mine I would polish the inside of that bushing, especially the leading edge or get a replacement

 

[243winxb]

If the case mouth was chamfer and deburred, first, then it would seem a defective bushing?

My bushings are coated, but Redding has said a tiny bit of lube doesnt hurt. I use very little RCBS 2 case lube. Just whats on my fingers from handling the brass.

 

[tcoz]

Case mouths were chamfered & deburred, however I didn’t polish or lube the inside of the bushing although the case necks are well lubricated with Imperial sizing wax. Considering the reputation of Whidden products I didn’t think that would be necessary but at this point I’ll try anything. I bought two smaller bushings along with this one so I’ll find some cases with a starting neck O.D. less than .008 larger than the bushing and try them as well.
While I’m on the subject, is the .008 number pretty much what you use as the maximum amount of neck O.D. reduction that should be done in one step without an intermediate sizing step with a bushing larger bushing?

 

[243winxb]

The .008" is from Redding, the inventer of the bushing die.
http://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/140-bushing-selection

Read there Tech Line Tips . Good info.

 

[Walkalong]

Don't use the expander ball along with the bushing.

I don't lube bushings. I have both, and I like the RCBS bushings better than the Redding, they are slicker. They will work in a Redding bushing die.

 

[Walkalong]

I bought a Whidden .223 seater, almost a copy of the Forster.

 

[tcoz]

Walkalong, do you feel that the coated RCBS bushings are worth the extra cost?

I won’t use the expander ball in the future. It was just an experiment to see if there would be any change which I knew there wouldn’t be.

In looking at a picture of RCBS bushings, it appears that they’re chamfered quite a bit more than the Whidden bushings.

I’m not going to go into it here but I have reason to believe that Whidden might have changed suppliers of their bushings....unless the make them but I don’t think that they do. If this is the case, maybe the new ones aren’t made to the same tolerances that the old ones are.
I think I’ll order a couple of RCBS bushings and see what happens. Amazon has them and I shouldn’t have a problem returning them if need be.

 

[Walkalong]

The website is not clear, are the Whidden bushings bare steel or coated? If bare steel lube would definitely help.

Is the RCBS bushing worth the extra cost over the Redding? They are similar in price. Are the coated bushings worth the price over bare steel? I sure like not having to lube.

 

[Walkalong]

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1011917721/rcbs-neck-sizer-die-bushing

Dies and accessories have sure gotten expansive in the last ten years.

 

[tcoz]

Thank you for the link Walkalong. Whidden bushings only come in a polished steel.

This afternoon I tried polishing the inside of the bushing and tried flipping it over with the same results. I also tried a different bushing....same results. As a last resort I found a case with neck diameter of .336 and tried the .335 bushing set to only size the neck halfway. Amazingly...same result.
No matter what I do, the bushing is literally cutting a layer of brass from the neck and leaves the sized portion of the neck with a “brushed” look.

In my years of reloading I’ve never been this frustrated by a seemingly simple process so pending the result of my communication with Whidden tomorrow, I may be going back to using the Lee Collet Die and Redding body die. If so, I’ll be offering the Whidden die for sale at a good price since there isn’t anything wrong with it. It’s a beautiful die and even comes with a shoulder bump gauge. I bought it from a trusted seller on another forum and he told me that he never had a problem using Redding bushings in it.

 

[Walkalong]

Redding coated I imagine.

 

[Offfhand]

The .008" is from Redding, the inventer of the bushing die.

Giving credit where it is due, Redding has done much to promote the bushing die concept, and makes high quality products. But for the record, I, and many other shooters, were using Wilson bushing dies and Wilson bushings many years before Redding offered bushing dies, etc. Redding, to their credit, also had the smarts to adopt the long established dimensions of Wilson bushings so they could be used interchangeably. Redding's coated bushings are a improvement over standard steel bushings and worth the price, but carbide bushings, which I prefer, are much better and worth the additional price.