Redding Type S F/L Sizing Bushing Die?

[something vague]

I am looking at getting a new F/L die to start resizing my cases with an attempt at creating as little neck and bullet run-out as possible. At the moment I have been using an RCBS Competition resizing die which has an expander ball. This die seems to give more neck tension than I prefer, especially when compared to my Lee Collet die. Therefore the inside of the neck sizing portion of the RCBS must be very small, and then brought back out a bit by the expander ball. All in all too much working of the case and lots of room for yawing the neck out of alignment. Would it be worth investing in a new Redding F/L bushing die or sending my original RCBS die off somewhere to be honed out? What are everyone's experience with this Redding die and does it seem to keep run-out at a minimum, if I turn my necks? I am pretty new at this precision handloading gig, therefore am in need of a bit of guidence. Just recently picked up a Sako 75 Varmint and would like to get my groups way down. So any other advice is also welcome.

 

[mallc]

Well...

Bushing dies work best when the case neck wall brass is the same thickness on each case you reload. This usually means high end brass to begin with, and/or sizing the necks to inside diameter and then turning the outsides to make the neck walls the same. In my humble opinion, this is a do later exercise.

I get my best improvements in order of priority with 1) Practice. 2) Finding the powder and bullet combination the rifle likes best. 3) Practice 4) Seat the bullet close to the lands, and pay super close attention to consistency when loading. 5) Practice. 6) other nifty tools, 7) Practice.

That said, I normally use the Redding standard F/L sizer backed off to get the neck where I want it with minimal push on the shoulder and body, and then use Redding Competition Seaters to seat the bullet nicely in the neck.

But then again...I don't shoot all that well.

Scott

 

[USSR]

What are everyone's experience with this Redding die and does it seem to keep run-out at a minimum, if I turn my necks?

It's a fairly common "internet fact", that you need to turn your necks in order to use a bushing die. Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't turn my necks, load my ammo with bushings without runout problems, and have no problems in 1,000 yard competition, where runout problems or neck tension problems would surely show up. One thing I can tell you about bushings is, measure the neck OD of a fired case, and if you need to reduce it more than .005" buy another intermediate size bushing so you reduce the neck OD to it's final OD in two steps. If you attempt to reduce the OD .006" or more in one step, the neck will be reduced .001" more than your bushing die (i.e. a .338" bushing will produce a neck OD of .337"). Nothing wrong with that, as long as you realize that it is doing it.

Don

 

[Walkalong]

It's a fairly common "internet fact", that you need to turn your necks in order to use a bushing die. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Agreed. Not necessary, especially in standard chambers.

 

[kelbro]

Redding bushing dies produce some very good brass.

 

[steve4102]

From Redding web site.

""Concentricity & Bushing Dies

From tests we have conducted, we have learned that selecting the correct bushing is the most important factor in producing sized case necks that have good concentricity with the case body. Our tests showed that case neck concentricity is directly proportional to bushing size. In other words, as you size case necks with progressively smaller bushings, the concentricity gets progressively worse.

Our current recommendation, is to select a bushing that is .001" smaller than the loaded cartridge neck diameter. For example, if the neck diameter of your loaded cartridges is .248", start with a .247" bushing. We've had to change our initial recommendation, because the majority of cartridge cases manufactured today have neck walls near the minimum SAAMI thickness. (See our "Bushing Selection" newsletter for more info.)

To create precision reloads, you must start with cases of good quality. They should all be from the same manufacturer and lot number. A good measure of case quality is how uniform the neck wall thickness is. Cases with uniform neck wall thickness, will be of uniform thickness all the way to the base. This is important for accuracy, as the cases will expand uniformly upon firing, and contract uniformly when sized. Neck turning helps, but it's only a partial cure, as you can't turn the case wall all the way to the base. A precision "ball" or "tubing" micrometer is the preferred instrument for checking neck wall thickness and uniformity. The concentricity of a fired case, only indicates how concentric your firearm's chamber is. It provides you with little or no information on the quality of the cases you're using.

Other factors that can improve concentricity:

• Lube case necks, even with TiN coated bushings.

• Partial size case necks. Sizing 1/2 or 3/4 of the neck seems to be the most popular.

• Try flipping the bushing over. We like to install them with the letters down to start with.

• Trim cases mouths square so they will enter the bushing straight. Don't forget to chamfer the case mouth, inside and out. This is very important as it eases the entry of the case mouth into the bushing, and the bullet into the case mouth.

• Anneal case necks. Cases that have been fired many times work harden and this causes excessive spring-back of the case necks.""


Sounds like you already has a Lee Collet die, if so use it. It will produce some amazingly concentric brass. Then purchase a Redding "Body" die. The body die sizes the case body and bumps the shoulder back leaving the concentric neck alone. Or you could get a Bushing die and remove the bushing and use it as a body die.

 

[ranger335v]

"I am looking"

 

[ranger335v]

"I am looking at getting a new F/L die to start resizing my cases with an attempt at creating as little neck and bullet run-out as possible."

Then do as Steve suggests, use a Lee Collet Neck Sizer and a body bump die.

Case necks need not be turned when using bushing dies ... but, only IF you don't care about consistant bullet "tension"! That's a fact, there's no false "web wisdom" about it.

All a bushing can do is make the outside of the necks the same, or as nearly so as the brass spring-back allows. Thus, any variation in neck thickness is pushed to the inside. Thick neck cases will have a tight bullet fit, thinner necks will be looser. Necks with varying thickness will hold the bullet that much out of bore alignment. Simply stated, there is no other way for it to be. Bushings can't work any magic that eliminates or ignores neck variables.

The Lee die does the minumum required amount of sizing, all the time, every time, and it holds the necks straight while doing so. All of the normal variations in neck consistancy is left on the outside, not inside where it will affect bullet tension. So, either turn your necks OR use Lee Collet sizers.

The Collet dies ARE more "complicated" than other dies and some don't like them for that. It's true, they do have a moving part! But anyone who takes the time to learn to use them correctly is unlikely to go back to conventional - or bushing - neck dies.

Bushing dies do have a place. And that is what they were invented to work on; BR type custom fitted, "tight neck" chambers and when using light tenson bullet seating. For that, the bushings are truly great. But, few of us have BR rifles so BR methods do us little good and some BR methods can actually be detrimental for our accuracy needs. (Such as seating into the rifling - that's a BR method initiated to retard bullet movement to achieve better powder igniton. It's not to "align the bullet with the bore" which IS "web wisdom")

I'm sure Redding, et al, is happy that so many other folks have jumped onto the BR methods bandwagon and buy expensive dies that really aren't well suited for their factory rifles, but..... using bushing dies without expanders to uniform the neck interiors just isn't a good idea for most of us. And, if we do use an expander with them we have gone back to what we were trying to get away from!

 

[243winxb]

Redding Type-S Full Length Sizing Bushing Die

The Redding type S bushing die work well for me it 2 guns, 243win. Rem40x neck turning,no expander. Rem600 no neck turning ,with expander. Factory chambers. The die lets you use an expender or just decap. Accuracy is better in both guns with the Redding. I do not check runout, i go by on targer.Click for larger photo.

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

 

[USSR]

Case necks need not be turned when using bushing dies ... but, only IF you don't care about consistant bullet "tension"! That's a fact, there's no false "web wisdom" about it.

All a bushing can do is make the outside of the necks the same, or as nearly so as the brass spring-back allows. Thus, any variation in neck thickness is pushed to the inside. Thick neck cases will have a tight bullet fit, thinner necks will be looser. Necks with varying thickness will hold the bullet that much out of bore alignment. Simply stated, there is no other way for it to be. Bushings can't work any magic that eliminates or ignores neck variables.

Ah, more "internet facts", as opposed to empirical data obtained thru actual experience.

Don

 

[243winxb]

And, if we do use an expander with them we have gone back to what we were trying to get away from!

No, the overworking of the brass will not happen. This is what "something vague" is trying to avoid.

Therefore the inside of the neck sizing portion of the RCBS must be very small, and then brought back out a bit by the expander ball. All in all too much working of the case and lots of room for yawing the neck out of alignment.

Using standard dies, the neck can be sized down way more than needed, over .010" in some cases.

 

[243winxb]

Try this, using standard RCBS FLRS die, neck turn the brass. Your accuracy may improve.The reason. Less metal on the neck, no over working the brass. The expander button is used. You have heard of

or sending my original RCBS die off somewhere to be honed out?

The outside neck turning does the same thing, But in a different manor. <( Not Recommended) You must control how much you push the shoulder back also.

 

[something vague]

Thanks for all the replies and opinions. After a little reading I think I probably should at least start off with just buying the redding body die in conjunction with my Lee Collet Die. I do like the results of my Lee die but eventually run into a super tight cartridge and have no choice but to run it through the RCBS F/L die, which is odviously normal. Which in turn changes the consistancy of my ammo as I am constantly changing the dimensions of the case through different sets of firings. I'm thinking that using the body die (set the shoulder back .001"-.002" at the most) I should always be shooting the same size case every firing which should improve the consistancy of my accuracy. Does this sound reasonable?

 

[steve4102]

I think I probably should at least start off with just buying the redding body die in conjunction with my Lee Collet Die.

Now your talkin!!!!!!!

 

[243winxb]

steve4102 said

Or you could get a Bushing die and remove the bushing and use it as a body die.

This works as well. The body die is nothing but a FLRS die without bushing and decapper.