Neck Sizing W/ F/L Dies

[Walkalong]

it's important set the die height accurately

This is what sizing is all about.

I call what I (and many others) do (Bumping the shoulder .001 to .003) "partial full length sizing" because we are not sizing as much as the die is capable of. "Full length sizing", to me, is sizing to fit a case gauge, which is what we should do for auto's. Won't hurt to do it in bolt guns, except for lessening case life.

To the credit of the die/shell holder/press makers, if we screw the sizer down to hit the shellholder, 99.9% of the time it will load safe ammo, but why not get more than just that, because we can if we use a tool to measure what is going on. We can get cases sized so that we know they are safe as well as will give us much better case life with excellent accuracy and dependability.

 

[MCMXI]

The Digital Headspace Gauge makes ALL of your FL dies work like those expensive benchrest dies by adjusting your die height accurately.

The Redding Instant Indicator Case Comparator does the same thing but it's really four tools in one, or three useful tools anyway. It comes with a SAAMI standard and can be used to accurately measure the following:

Headspace - case head to datum on shoulder
Bullet base to ogive
C.O.L. (I don't use it for this)
Case length

I neck size with a Redding die followed by bumping the shoulder back with a Redding body die. I no longer neck size only so I load hunting ammunition and match ammunition the same way.

 

[Innovative]

1858 ......

I prefer to always use a FL die, because it resizes the neck, body, and the shoulder (all in one operation) while the whole case is fully supported.

The Digital Headspace Gauge does the same functions as the Redding unit without requiring special bushings, and it works on ALL different calibers. It also rounds off to the nearest half thousandth and provides uniform spring pressure when measuring. It's very simple to operate, and since it works as a comparator, there's no need to locate the datum line.

The SAAMI spec. is an acceptable "range" of dimensions. However, I load to my "particular" chamber size with a FL die.

 

[MCMXI]

Innovative, using your gauge, what sort of variation do you see on new fired cases from the same rifle/chamber? For example, let's say you measured 100 new cases after firing. Are they all the same?

 

[Innovative]

rsrocket1 .....

You're making this way more complicated than it should be, and there are some common mistakes included in your article.

1858 ........

My Digital Headspace Gauge measures within half a thousandth every single time. If you get different measurements from fired cases (and you will) then you can believe those readings are always 100% accurate.

The variation of your fired cases can measure as much as .003" which is caused by the varying hardness of your brass or a dirty chamber. Calibrate this gauge on one of your longest cases. If you adjust die height accurately, full length resizing is absolutely the best way to go.

 

[Pistol Ranch]

This thread has now seen over 300 "hits". Very few answered my question (not counting the P.M I got that gave me a straight answer)
The rest of the posts are about trying to sell me on a gage or equipment that I have no interest in.
I suggest a seperate thread for purveyors of reloading gadgets.

P.R.

 

[MCMXI]

This thread has now seen over 300 "hits". Very few answered my question (not counting the P.M I got that gave me a straight answer)
The rest of the posts are about trying to sell me on a gage or equipment that I have no interest in.
I suggest a seperate thread for purveyors of reloading gadgets.

You received plenty of informed answers from Walkalong and ranger335v and others. The rest of us are free to discuss anything we like that pertains to neck sizing or full length sizing right up until a moderator says otherwise.

 

[Walkalong]

Very few threads stay exactly on topic, but we have all tried in our own way to help. Many posters have added pertinent information. Specific feedback about our posts would help. That way we would know if we answered your question/s or need to approach it from a different angle.

 

[steve4102]

This thread has now seen over 300 "hits". Very few answered my question (not counting the P.M I got that gave me a straight answer)

I think you have your answers buried amongst all the other info presented.
Basically if you want to Neck size get a neck die.
An FL die can be backed out of the press far enough so that it contacts the neck only. How much of the neck that gets sized depends on the amount of taper the case has.
What cartridge are you talking about?
As soon as the FL die contacts the case body you are no longer neck sizing. Contact between the die and the case body can cause all sorts of issues with headspace etc. if not adjusted properly, by properly I mean complete or partial FL sized.

 

[ranger335v]

"This thread has now seen over 300 "hits". Very few answered my question...The rest of the posts are about trying to sell me on a gage or equipment that I have no interest in."

Well, you asked a question that sorta suggests maybe you should have an interest in the "gadgets".

On the answers, the way this usually works is one guy asks a question, others contribute what they feel is relivant info, in an effort to help. Then everyone, including the OP, takes out what they like and ignore the rest.

Fact is, it's sorta hard to answer any question when it appears the answers are being ignored for some reason but maybe that's just me, YMMV.

 

[rsrocket1]

+1, That's why this is called a thread.

As is often the case, if you don't specifically state your exact intentions and applications, you will get answers and discussions spanning the whole spectrum of the subject.

If all you want to do is to "sort of" neck size and save $18 by not buying a neck sizing die because your only application is for hunting, then say so in the OP. The answer would have been "sure, go ahead, you'll be fine".

No one is interested in selling you anything. Your gun is the perfect fit gauge for your rounds and if you want to use it, you don't have to spend anything more. If you don't like the discussion, feel free to ignore it. There seem to be others who have questions about this subject and want to learn. 300 hits means there are others who are interested in the subject. Most of us are here to learn and share what we've learned (or be corrected of any errors).

 

[JimKirk]

I believe that post #2, #4, #5 and others answered the OP's question ... about what would be the results if you tried to neck size ... using a FL sizing die.

So unless your brass has zero body taper ... there will be some "body" sizing along with the normal neck sizing a FL die does. Depending on the amount of body taper a case has ... as to how much of the neck can be sized before the body starts being sized.

Jimmy K

 

[Pistol Ranch]

This thread now has 39 "replys" (including mine). Taking the "High Road" approach, my question was pretty simple...i.e. what are the NEGATIVES of using a F/L die to neck size??
Obviously, some interest by others who have "lurked" but not posted an opinion (or looked on to see the answers).
FWIW, I saw no need to explain the question ,as in "I am talking about ammo used for hunting only" (not benchrest) or "I plan on trying it with .22-250 dies".
I got three answers (plus 1 via P.M.) So 4/35=.114% ( I did not count my posts)
Not a particularly high percentage of answers to (IMO) a pretty simple question..As a matter of fact, there are more posts about the actual use of a "Digital Headspace Gage" which, IMO, has NO RELEVANCE to the O.P question.
One of the last posters actually presented some useful info..i.e. "You can do
it, there may some issues with the cartridges ability to grasp the reloaded bullet" and "There may be some headspace issues with cartridge cases as the neck moves forward after repeated firings"..A good point if you forget that I have F/L dies to address that problem.
On other websites where I have membership, it considered a breach of etiqutte to diverge from the original posters statements or questions.
The moderator of this thread will make the decision as to whether or not divergence took place and if is worth the effort to comment.
I thank those that took the time to read the question and respond..

P.R.

 

[Walkalong]

While not everything has been right on target answering your questions, much of it was, both directly and some indirectly.

Based on your .114% calculation, I really feel like you missed a lot that does help answer your question. I also find your comments show a total lack of appreciation for many posts that were intended to be helpful, but were not what you wanted.

After the mood of your last couple of posts aimed at people who for the most part were only trying to be helpful I am certainly not inclined to try to help you in the future.

More flies with honey and all that.

 

[Pistol Ranch]

Walkalong:
I try, very hard, not to "aim" my posts at anyone.
You may choose to help (or not help) anyone.
You might ask yourself if your last post was "aimed".

Peace, my friend

P.R.

 

[Art Eatman]

I had this sort of discussion with my uncle when I first started reloading for my .30-'06. He said to just neck size any fired case which had been fired in my rifle, or which would fit in the chamber.

Phil Sharpe, a Grand Guru of reloading, commented quite favorably of neck-sizing only.

Okay, so I backed the FL sizing die out a bit and sized only about 3/4 of the neck. Doesn't seem to make much nevermind for any ensuing problems (of which there were noen), between 1/2-way and "most of the neck."

That was in 1950, and my "whatever seems reasonable" method has yet to keep me from sub-MOA groups, and that's out to my hanging plate at 500 yards, anyway.

 

[Pistol Ranch]

Art;
I think that your reply was on the money and what most of the lurkers on this thread were looking for.
The fella that sent me an answer via P.M. had similar comments.
Technical (bencrest) shooters will use neck sizing dies, F/L dies, neck trimmers, neck turners, weigh their cases, check cases for equal volume, size flash holes, deburr flash holes inside their cartridge cases,use digital headspace gages, etc.,etc. to squeeze the last bit of accuracy out of their equipment. The wind still blows and groups open up..
You can still get a rifle to perform very well with much less tinkering..

P.R.

 

[Walkalong]

Many folks over the years have taken the firing pin and spring out of the bolt and sized the brass down a hair at a time until there was almost no resistance to the bolt closing. Works just fine.

Just remember there will be some sizing on the body, and make sure there is enough neck sized for good grip on the bullet. Concentricity will be the same as you are getting FL sizing with the same die. Like Art posted, it has worked for many a reloader for a lot of years. If in the off chance it moves the shoulder forward some, it could cause some chambering problems. Probably not, but something to keep in mind. I hope this is more helpful.

 

[Innovative]

So far, I've worked full time for over 10 years helping shooters (mostly by phone & email) to solve their handloading problems. Trust me ..... chambering problems are common. Just look at all of the headspace problems you read about on reloading forums.

I've also received hundreds of emails from customers that have found the advantages of accurate FL resizing. It doesn't matter whose measuring tool you use, as long as you KNOW exactly what your chamber clearance is. Of course some tools are far better than others ....

One of the most common emails I get is from experienced shooters that they learned something new after seeing the REAL dimensions of their handloads in relation to their particular chamber. For many, it's like using a chronograph for the first time, when you see that your velocity isn't quite what you expected.

Some shooters just don't feel the need to learn new things, and some of them have different levels of interest in reloading. That's fine with me. Some of us use a variety of reloading techniques for different reasons. That's fine too. For me, if there was a better method that FL resizing - I'd be doing it, and I suspect that Tony Boyer would too.

 

[JimKirk]

I have a question now!

Have any of my post in this thread been helpful?


Now a statement... I am not very good at explaining things like some folks are... I just happen to be one of those who can't, I'm more of a hands on/show type. Because of this ... my post are short and to the point mostly... sometimes my shortness of words is taken the wrong way by some folks. I am sorry for that. I also tend to stay out of threads that I have no knowledge of the subject, but if a thread ask for an opinion ... I may offer one.

Jimmy K

 

[Innovative]

Jimmy ......

Solving a technical problem in a forum with a jillion different shooters can be difficult at best. However, seeing the opinions from enough shooters can be a valuable way to decide whether to FL or NK resize.

Unfortunately, very few of us know each other well enough to just go with a single response. It also helps other shooters learn more about the original subjest. Don't be afraid to contribute your opinions.

 

[JimKirk]

I have a question now!

Have any of my post in this thread been helpful?

I should have directed that to the OP.


No worry Larry ...not afraid to give an opinion!

Jimmy K

 

[918v]

what are the NEGATIVES of using a F/L die to neck size??

OK, here it is. I gave everyone a chance:

When a round fires in the chamber, the case expands every which way to seal. This case is now .005" to .010" larger than it used to be. A NS die will only size the neck because the body portion of the die is cut so oversize it does not even touch the body portion of the expanded case when the case is inserted therein. A FL, die, on the other hand, sizes the whole case, body and neck. What's gonna happen when you run a fired case into a FL die is the shoulder of the case will hit the inner sides of the FL die's chamber before the neck hits the corresponding neck part of the die. Being the FL die is designed to size the whole case, it will apply pressure to the edge of the shoulder and and cause an angular shift. Say the shoulder was 23 degrees, well now it is 20 degrees. Why is this important, well because when there is a change in the shoulder angle, headspace is also changed. In this case, because the angle was reduced, headspace decreased. Your case, if you were to remove it at this point, will not chamber in your rifle. So that's the folly of partial FL sizing. If you don't adjust the die to bump the shoulder at all, i.e. to neck size only, you will have a case that will not chamber.

Somebody made-up a term called "partial FL sizing". This involves sizing the whole case, but adjusting the die to bump the shoulder only enough to allow the bolt to close. This gives you about .001" to .003" of headspace and prolongs case life. This is what you use the FL die for, not neck sizing. Don't be cheap. Get yourself a Lee Collet neck die.

Depending on the round, some have longer necks than others and you may be able to size a small part tof the neck before the shoulder is touched by the die, but in most cases the shoulder will be sized before the neck even gets touched.

 

[Innovative]

918v ......

I've never used the Lee Collet Neck Die, but I have heard good reports about it.

I'd like to coin a new term "Accurate Full Length Resizing". I believe that it is FAR better than partial FL sizing, and also better than neck sizing.

If you don't know the exact size of your particular chamber (at the shoulder), how can you accurately resize your handloads? ... and ... if you don't measure your completed handloads, how can you know how well your resizing technique succeeded?

The answers to these questions are only available when you measure things, and the results are impressive once you can actually see how YOUR handloads fit in YOUR chamber.

 

[ranger335v]

Larry: "I'd like to coin a new term "Accurate Full Length Resizing"."

I've been using "custom resizing" for some years with those I've taught to reload. "FL sizing" has a specific meaning by SAAMI specifications, that's clear enough. But, "partial FL sizing" is virtually meaningless in any real sense. My noobs grasp the difference between FL and custom resizing quite well.