Looking for Winchester 1886 information.

Status
Not open for further replies.

DMH

Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2011
Messages
298
Location
Minnesota
Any suggestions to books dedicated to the Winchester 1886? History info, diagrams, options and sights. Also, should an 1886 manufactured in 1897 be safe with smokeless powder? Or should I use black powder? I've fired 8 rounds of Hornady 45-70 325 gr. ftx ammunition and was happy with results. This is a new gun to me and although I have another 45-70 this is my only 1886.

Thanks, DMH.
 
1886 Winchester

Why would you want to shoot that rifle? Put it up and keep in in original condition, those old guns are a treasure and not something I would want damagrd by shooting. Al
 
Thanks for the response, and I agree that your advise may be best. I like older fire arms, and older manufactured items in general. I was looking for a 1886 or model 71 copy or reproduction to use as a hunting rifle for black bear in Minnesota. The original model 71 was out of my price range, and was shopping for a Browning from the 1990's with out the rebounding hammer or the tang safety. With several gun shows and searching smaller gun shops in MN. and Wisc. I was having no luck. So I was heading to Cabelas in Rodgers Mn. to look at a Davide Pedistoli 1886/71 in 45-70. I stop at a fishing/gun shop and found this 1886 that looked nice and in 45-70. This gun had no rebounding hammer and no tang safety, nice short 21" barrel and lyman rear peep mounted to the left side of the receiver. This could not have fit me better. It's exactly what the doctor ordered. The barrel address is not stamped, I do not know why. I can not find anywhere on the gun that says winchester. Model 1886 on upper tang, pat date on lower tang just behind the trigger and serial number in the 111,xxx range. The caliber stamp is in the correct location, but the font is not what I've seen on other Winchesters. It is 45-70 and lightly stamped in a script form. The lyman rear peep sight is a model 38 and is stamped "lyman 38" When I bought the gun I did not think it was this old. I really thought it was something some one put together from a reproduction gun. The front sight is marbles and it has what I believe is a 3/4 mag. tube. Magazine holds 5 rounds. Sorry for the long post.

Thanks, DMH
 
Well I just typed up a long answer and the computer timed out and made me log in again.

Short answer,
I shoot 3 of mine from that era.
By a copy of Mike Venturino's book, SHOOTING LEVER GUNS OF THE OLD WEST
Use loads from the Trap_door section of the loading manuals for rifles made before 1900.

AA-5744 powder is your friend. Trail Boss is OK but dirty. IMR-SR-4759 will also work but is dirty.

Can't re-type everything, or this computer will time out again.
 
Would not shoot any modern ammo out of her unless the barrel says "for smokeless powder". Cowboy action or load your own with hard cast lead (405 gr LFN w/29-30 grains of H4198) will give you plenty of umph.

The design will handle modern loads, but the metallurgy will not, jacketed bullets will wear the lands in the bore really, really fast. Winchester eliminated this problem with the "high nickel" barrels in the 1890's.
 
Be nice and easy to your rifle. Those early firearms were made out of plain carbon steels, both the rifles and the steels were made in an era of primitive process controls. The immaturity of period metallurgy and production processes is not well appreciated or understood as it is beyond living memory.

However, even in 1937, when Phil Sharpe wrote this, it was well understood that those early guns were not as strong or as well built as later. Italics are from his text.

There has been a great deal of improvement in steels, whether they be ordinary soft steels or various forms of nickel steel. No attempt with be made here to describe steels, as the subject would require and entire book. Thirty years ago, very little was known about heat treatment.

If you had a Winchester Model 1892 manufactured in 1905 and an identical model manufactured in 1935, assuming the original gun to be in perfect condition inside and out, you might place them side by side and notice absolutely no difference at firs glance. Careful study, however, will reveal that the later gun is manufactured better, with a minimum of tolerance, slap, looseness or whatever you may choose to call it. That, however, is the minor part of the of the whole thing. There will be little laboratory resemblance between the material of which the two gun are manufactured. Changes and improvements are being made constantly, and where changes in the quality of steel or the strengthening of certain parts through heat treatment are made, the factory rarely, if ever, makes any announcement. If these same Model 92 rifles were fired with a Magnum .38/40 load, it is quite possible that the earlier gun might go to pieces, while the later one would be perfectly safe. These facts must always be considered in handloading.
Complete Guide to Handloading by Philip B Sharpe. First Edition 1937, Chapter XXX, Magnum Handgun and Rifle Possibilities.
 
Ain't nothing wrong with shooting an original 1886. However, I agree that you should avoid using jacketed bullets and keep pressures low. Venturino's book is a good one and I would suggest looking for the two levergun special editions (Legacy of Leverguns) put out by Handloader/Rifle magazine. Backissues may still be available.

http://www.riflemagazine.com
 
Thanks for the information. I will look for the Mike Venturino's book asap. I like to read, research and understand. I will not send another jacketed bullet down her bore (promise). I will start reloading for this round, have dies already and a dillion 550. Thanks again for the tips. I did call and request a Cody letter, $60.00 plus $15.00 for receiver stamp dates.

David
 
A Lyman "Trapdoor" load will get a 405 grain cast bullet up to 1400-1500 fps at no more than 18,000 CUP, which will be easy on the old gun but with ample power for anything except maybe brown bear defense. Probably more power than you will enjoy for plinking.
A friend's '86 is amazingly accurate with the 330 grain Gould Express hollowpoint at 1700 fps and the load is still down in the "Trapdoor" range, which Mr Browning's design should shoot roughly forever.

I doubt 8 rounds of expensive rubbernose bullets put any great wear and tear on the action or barrel.
 
Thanks or all the helpful information. The barrel has no dovetail cut for a rear sight. I do not see a blank or filler and have looked with magnifying glass and light. It is a round barrel and has a marbels front sight and a lyman 38 rear peep sight (receiver mounted). The barrel is what I'd call a 21" barrel, measured from muzzle to the end of threads into the receiver. It looks like a light weight rifle, no barrel band and no mag hangers. It has one screw at the muzzle end of the mag tube that screws into the bottom of the barrel. I'm thinking this may be an aftermarket barrel.

David
 
Well I just typed up a long answer and the computer timed out and made me log in again.

Short answer,
I shoot 3 of mine from that era.
By a copy of Mike Venturino's book, SHOOTING LEVER GUNS OF THE OLD WEST
Use loads from the Trap_door section of the loading manuals for rifles made before 1900.

AA-5744 powder is your friend. Trail Boss is OK but dirty. IMR-SR-4759 will also work but is dirty.

Can't re-type everything, or this computer will time out again.

I compose in Word, spell-check, then copy & paste into the forum post window. You can take your time that way and do several pages if you want.

Dan
 
Does it look something lie this?
standard.gif
If the barrel is factory, it will be marked as Winchester and also towards left side of breech it will probably be marked "Nickle Steel".
Rifles could be ordered direct from factory in 1897 & special order features were still incorporated, no dovetail and a receiver sight would be a special order option.
 
I compose in Word, spell-check, then copy & paste into the forum post window. You can take your time that way and do several pages if you want.
That's a good idea but I just make it a habit to copy my post to the clipboard before submitting it just in case. Then if there's a problem, all I have to do is go back and paste it.
 
Onmilo, Yes it is very similar to that one, the one I have looks like it has a slightly longer mag tube. It also has a crescent metal rifle butt plate. The only markings I can find on the barrel are 45-70. I have never posted photos, but I will learn and post photos tonight or Wednesday. I wish mine had sling mounts on it. I like the photo thank you.

David
 
If it does not say Winchester on the barrel I would bet that it is a replacement barrel.
And while it may be newer steel, the bolt and action are still 1890s technology.

I shoot 3 old Winchesters that were made in the 1890s, two 1886s - a 45-70 made in 1891 and a 45-90 made in 1893- Plus a model 1892 (38 WCF) that was made in 1892 and shipped from the factory warehouse in Feb 1893.

I load all of them with lubed lead bullets and mild loads of smokeless powder. Although I do occasionally use real black-powder or black-powder substitutes, the clean up is a big pain in the butt and more likely to cause long term conservation problems for these old rifles.

From the 45-70, 28 grains of Accurate Arm AA-5744 powder (used to be XMP5744) will push a 405 grain cast lead slug at 1,380 fps. And it will do it with a low pressure curve.

I use 30 grains in my 45-90 to push a 330 grain cast lead slug to just over 1,400 fps.

I used the 45-90 on a large moose some years ago. While I was aiming for the junction of the neck and skull, he moved his head while the 330gr cast bullet was in flight (a 100 yard shot) and the bullet impacted the side of his skull and blew right on through and exited the other side.

I have also taken a moose with the 45-70 chambered Win 1886 and at 50 yards a frontal chest shot resulted in the cast lead slug stopping in one hind quarter. About 4.5 feet of penetration.
 
1886 photos added

Here is my first attempt at posting photos.

IMG_0850.jpg
Lyman 38 rear peep receiver sight.

IMG_0860.jpg

IMG_0851.jpg

IMG_0855.jpg
Marble 26M front sight.

IMG_0853.jpg
 
it looks too perfect to be original. i think its a refinish with a new barrel, but who cares shoot the heck out of it and take a few nice bears.
 
Rebarrelled, refinished, resighted, this one is a shooter for sure.
With a relatively modern barrel, it is probably ok for JSPs.

It might have been some odd caliber, rebarrelled to .45-70 which was the only period ammunition available for many years. A friend had a .40-82 he thought about converting, back before the BPCR revival, but ended up trading it to a collector.
 
I agree its not original, I can not find Winchester stamped anywhere on the gun. No proof stamp or barrel address. I was thinking maybe someone put it together from parts. The sights have me confused. They seem to be period correct and expensive sight to put on a parts gun. I bought the gun thinking it was from the 1980's or 1990's but run the serial number after purchase. It shoots and functions great.

David
 
One of the nice things about 45-70s is that they can use lead bullets at jacketed velocities. The 405 grain is the original load and there was also a 500 grain loading. The Gould (Lyman 457122) bullet over a case of black powder gives a great hunting load but I would not use it for bear. There I would want a non HP and at least 400 grains of lead. As for bullet alloy, I pour them soft 30/1 or thereabouts. Properly sized, there is no leading and they give wonderful penetration.

Enjoy that rifle!
 
DMH, go to Leverguns.com and locate Mike D. He will sort it all out for you as he is big on the '86's.

Personally, I still would not shoot jacketed out of her until I knew for sure. The action can probably handle standard levergun loads, but you would hate to gamble on one that looks that nice.

What does it say on the tangs?
 
It's a very nicely refinished gun, not really in the collectible category, definitely a nice shooter. Most loading manuals have 1886 safe loads, have fun with it.
 
Old Time Hunter, The top tang -Model 1886- Bottom tang has patent dates behind the trigger and serial number under the lever.

Davd
 
i agree with the odd caliber idea. its very possible that is was chambered in 45-90 or 50-110. which really arent available anymore.

if u find a crappy rifle such as an 1886 and rebarrel and refinish it to make it useable i have no problem with this. yes u are taking away alot of the history, but guns were designed to be used not hung on a wall. take care of it and shoot a biggin with it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top