New 1886 in 45-90

[witchhunter]

I just bought a NIB Winchester 1886 (Miroku) in 45/90. It is a takedown model with a 26" octagon barrel. I am excited to start loading for it, I have dies coming, and I got 50 new Starline brass with it. Where should I start? Which bullet and what type of black powder? I am a little scared of the crescent butt plate, but, it's a man's rifle after all. Can you guys point me in the right direction. I hear the Venturino's book has a lot of info, I will get one ordered, is there a better book available? I don't plan on using it for hunting, just fun blasting, but you never know, it might make a great squirrel gun!

 

[Tommygunn]

Cool.
A little over 20 years ago I nearly obtained a Browning 1886 carbine in .45-70 but unfortunatly the nature of events prevented the sale. I'd still like to get an 1886. I'd still prefer the .45-70 caliber version though.
A buddy where I used to work in Connecticut had a real old 1886 in .45-90 that was in decent shape. I did a little research for him and was able to tell him a little more about his rifle, including the year it was made.
Back in March I bought a Miroku produced Winchester 1892 Delux limited edition takedown in caliber .32-20, with a 24" octagonal barrel and pistol grip with checkering.
It's one of my favorite rifles now. But boy are those rifles more "nose heavy" than the carbines! One might not expect that but the steel up there does add weight fast.

If you're reloading .45-90 I might start off with 2F blackpowder. It's a bit less potent than 3F. The one thing about the 1886 design is that it is a very strong design. You'll likely have to experiment with charges until you find what your rifle "likes." If you need a little more velocity you could try 3F.
If I remember correctly .45-90 (as well as .45-70) were originally balloon-head cases (like the modern .22rimfire) and modern brass is not going to hold the true full 90 grains of powder.
Anyway, you sound like you have plenty of experience reloading .... so I'll stop preaching.
Gotta clean the drool off my keyboard anyway!
BTW --- if you do use .45 -90 on a squirrel, don't expect there to be much more than a single strand of fur left after the blast.....

EDIT: COOL--you added a photo! Now I'm REALLY jealous.



And I need to clean off my keyboard ...... again....

 

[witchhunter]

Thanks, Tommy, I know it's a bad photo, but I have been wanting one for a while, I just fell into it. I just ordered Loading Black Powder Cartridges by Paul Mathews from Amazon. I see that I am limited by the lever action design to cartridge length, but I don't want to load hot anyway. I would like to start with a 300-350 grain bullet, but there is a lot to learn about black powder cartridges. Is one brand on black better than others? I want it to be accurate, but I'm afraid I will be flinching so bad it might not matter for a while anyway.

 

[Tommygunn]

I've only ever seen Goex blackpowder around. There aren't that many brands of BP around, and while I have heard that there are some more "potent" than Goex, I can't recall what brands they are. There are a number of threads on this "BLACKPOWDER SHOOTING" section that you can research and find out some information, and possibly someone who has better information than I will chime in and help you.
You probably won't be able to load it "hot" -- atleast not too hot anyway. You will have to watch the overall length of the cartridge and determine what bullets to use. A BP case must be fully loaded with the bullet resting on and slightly compressing the BP, which is pretty limiting in terms of "MORE POWER." You can load light loads but the extra volume ought to be filled with something like cream of wheat so there is no extra empty volume in the case. One way to increase power would be to go to a finer granulation, like say from 2F to 3F.

 

[MEHavey]

If I'm not mistaken, the max OAL for feeding will be 2.8(-). That means a bullet with a nose length no more than 0.375 (or so) from the case mouth... the classic 300-330gr Gould "express" bullet being an example.

The 325gr from RCBS might be a best bet.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/75...er-458-diameter-325-grain-flat-nose-universal
Check to see if Montana Bullets workd still has them in inventory
http://www.montanabulletworks.com/home.html
If/when casting, go soft. 30:1 Lead/tin

As to the black powder to use, GoEX 2F by default, and/or Swiss 1.5 (best)

Fill case (vibrated down) to the point that it just touches the bullet base, the add two 0.62" card wads (protects the base and gives you an automatic 1/8" compression.

Get a powder compression die (!) Trying to do it with the bullet upon seating will just deform the bullet.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/240/1/DIE-45-COMPRESS
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/226/1/LEE-DIE-45-EX

postscript: Wecome to the nutsy world of the BPCR. :banghead:

.

 

[Jim Watson]

I don't know the twist rate of the Browning/Miroku 1886 .45-90.

It might be a true .45-90-300 with 32 twist for the light Express bullet, (a friend has a real Winchester that shoots the 330 gr Gould Express hollowpoint better than any scope sighted nitro shooter would believe.)

Edited to add: But I have read on the Internet, therefore it must be so, that they used the same 20 or 22 twist for the .45-90 as for .45-70, therefore recreating the .45-82-405 Winchester. Couldn't mark it that way, nobody would know that they were talking about. But it makes a wonderfully flexible rifle, capable of shooting anything that will load to an OAL that will run through the lever action.

You can load smokeless for it, the Black Powder Only business is just CYA because the .45-90 is not a SAAMI spec cartridge and there is little if any current data for it.

 

[MEHavey]

The 405gr Lyman RNFP would be a great do-all bullet... if the action's not limited to 2.8" OAL

[OP] Check that OAL reqm't before you invest in any bullets.

 

[witchhunter]

Thanks, I have been scouring the internet and I spent an hour or two on the phone to an old buddy that has been shooting BP for years. He is going to give me a hand getting started. I called him because I knew he has been a traditional muzzle loader shooter for many years, it turns out he is a Sharps guy too now. I will measure my twist and try some 300 grainers with BP lube. A compression die will be necessary it looks like. Man this stuff is going to break me! I need a lot of stuff!

 

[Don McDowell]

82 grs of Olde Eynsford 1.5 , with a .060 fiber wad and a 300 gr bullet , will come awfully close to duplicating the original 45-90 load.

 

[StrawHat]

I had a Winchester 1886 45-90 takedown rifle back int he 70s. Heavy and a tad slow to swing but it shot the Gould bullet real well with a caseful of black powder. Back then I was unaware of BP specific lubes (most of us were unaware of them) and used whatever I had in the Lyman Lubrisizer. They worked well enough. Too heavy to hunt with so it went down the road.

Enjoy yours.

Kevin

 

[J-Bar]

I shoot blackpowder cartridges, .45 Colt, .38/.357 Mag. in cowboy action matches. I admit I am not familiar with the really big cartridges. But some things I have learned with the small stuff:

Goex is dirtier than Schuetzen. Pyrodex burns cleaner than either one. Yes, I know all about the corrosiveness of Pyrodex, just saying it does not produce nearly as much crud as "real" black powder. Not trying to start any argument, just reporting an observation.

You get more complete powder burn with heavy bullets and tight crimps. If you are not going to use the magazine and you are going to single load every cartridge into the chamber, then crimp won't matter. But you are going to get some recoil with those big cartridges, and if you stoke the gun with more than one round, I think you better crimp those bullets tightly to avoid having them move around in the case.

A little can of Ballistol aerosol spray will help keep the rifle's action from fouling up if you shoot a lot at a time. I also spray some down the bore after shooting is over...makes clean up easier when I get home.

 

[CANNONMAN]

I own a 45-70 [TC Pistol] and only saw a 45-90 cartridge. WOW! If you wouldn't mind, I like to talk to you about selling you some rotator cuff insurance? And, OMG what kind of squirrels do you have? Didn't that size go extinct some 65 million years ago? I'd send you my 2cents to see a video of you shooting that thing.

 

[WestKentucky]

45-90 sounds nice but I'm still holding for a 50-110. If it's strictly a range toy, it might as well smoke out the whole range. Let us know how she shoots. I might be in need of a gift to myself in the near future.

 

[Malamute]

I dont have numbers, but the 45-90 should take regular 45-70 bullets seated the same as they are in 45-70 cases. I've run factory 45-90 catridges through my Browning 45-70 and they work fine other than getting in the loading gate, they need a little clearancing work there, but otherwise run through the action fine. 45-90 cartridges have as much bullet out of the case as factory 45-70's, the case is just longer. The 86 action has lots of extra room when used with the standard factory length 45-70's.

I've shot plenty of small game with 45-70's. With 400 gr cast bullets they just make large clean holes through stuff. With light loads with round balls they make great small game and grouse guns. Have made shot loads for snakes, but the pattern degrades pretty fast because of the rifling spin.

I'd be shooting smokeless loads, or duplex loads if it were mine. Black is fun, but not the only alternative. You'll likely run out of having fun before you run out of gun strength. You should be able to shoot 45-70s in it without any problem other than the chamber getting dirty. It was common in the older guns, and I believe Winchester mentioned it in some of their literature. I've shot 45-70's in an original 86 in 45-90 without any problem.

 

[witchhunter]

This thing feels great, just handling it. My dies arrived today, I made a dummy round with a 350 grain Laser cast lead pill. It cycles easily. I have a can of Trail Boss, I might try some loads with it. There is just not a lot of smokeless data out there for the 45/90 compared to the 45/70. I can't wait to get the tube full and try her out! It holds 8 rounds, which might be useful to help with the recoil. She weighs 8 1/2 pounds empty, I bet 8 rounds would weigh a pound or so.

 

[Malamute]

The weight does help with recoil. The crescent butt may be OK for you, I found mine uncomfortable and had it cut off after shooting some heavy 500 gr loads. If you dont get crazy with heavy smokeless loads, it may not be a problem though.

Theres a book, The Winchester Lever Legacy by Clyde Williamson, with some load info, but the guy was working up heavy hunting loads. There may be some less potent stuff also. I'll look when I get a chance tomorrow.

 

[stringnut]

Felt recoil , at the same velocity, may be worse with blackpowder. Black powder burns different and has a harder impulse. Also, it does not completely convert to gas. The unburned portion is considered , with the projectile, as part of the weight. The one I had was brutal with black and only awful with hot smokeless loads. Have fun.

 

[Malamute]

I shot black in an original 86 in 45-70, it didnt seen bad at all. The 500 gr loads @ 1750 fps in the Browning 86 were rather uncomfortable.

After making a flat or shotgun butt out of my original Browning 86 stock, I later traded into a shotgun butt from a Miroku/Winchester 86 extra-light rifle. I havent fitted and refinished it yet, but it looks like it will be nice when done. Its inletted to the metal fine, but is a bit proud around the edges, so its getting worked down and refinished. It has a very nice checkered steel flat shotgun butt. Much nicer than the crescent in my jaded opinion.

Shooting off a bench, and leaning way down and into it like most seem to do, has a LOT to do with felt recoil also (like its WAY worse that way). Getting your sandbags or rest high enough that your back is straight up and down helps with all rifles that recoil some. A standing rest that lets you stand straight up helps, as do most field shooting positions.

 

[witchhunter]

Well, I loaded up some ammo today and this thing rocks. I used AA5744 and some Trail Boss with a 300 grain Oregon Trail bullet. The Trail Boss loads were very light recoiling, I don't know the velocity, but they felt mild. The 5744 loads were 1600 fps and they had a kick, but nothing compared to what I was expecting. I tell ya, I was a little scared to pull the trigger, but it was fine. I came home and loaded up some more. I got one hole groups at 40 yards with both loads. Happy! Oh, and the holes are easy to see on white paper, they are big compared to the .22 centerfire holes that I am used to. Way big.

 

[MEHavey]

If going smokeless, stay w/ the AA5744 (no wadding/filler of any kind) and/or IMR4759 (if you can find it now). They best approximate BP pressure curves.

I would counsel to stay away from Trailboss. While a nice case-filler, it has a very sharp pressure-rise "snap" to it that doesn't lend itself to BP-era designs.
(Other opinions might vary. Rebuttal welcome.)
http://www.reloadersnest.com/query_all.asp?CaliberID=92
http://www.loaddata.com/members/sea...aliberid=26&header=.45 Caliber Reloading Data

Go with a softer/"air-cooled" bullet if they give you that option.
Go 30:1 if you ever start casting your own