M1 Carbine necked down to 22 cal

[Gordon]

Was the serial number removed on that one?

hell if I know, I got too many weird projects to buy it !
Anyway I DID actually shoot one about 35 year ago , it had been made up on the thumbhole stock as shown in the above ad . It was well turned out and the 15 round mags the guy was using fed flawlessly, It was actually quite appealing , but I allready had two K Hornets with the same capability and was trying to get someone to put a .17 Remington barrel on my old Seattle Gun Works AR lower . He kept the gun and my couple hundred deposit for a couple years before I went to his shop and took it back, almost by force. He didn't have my $200 dollars and I never got it back ! I still have that Calif registered SGW lower , it (still in 5,56) has my ANPVS-4 mounted to the handle with an older but powerful IR Surefire flashlight on a clamp thru the sight tower early GG&G pic mount . I keep that one to patrol the homestead at night . I still wish I had a 20" .17 Remington barreled AR upper !

 

[kBob]

Anyone know who built an M1 Carbine type rifle with an actual tang on it?

that's weird.....

-kBob

 

[DB 404]

Back in the 1990s, IIRC, IMI started cranking out repro M1 carbines. Their US operation was headquartered in Texas (don't recall which city). Like most M1 carbine remanufacturing startups, their initial offerings were well received. Again, IIRC, there was a review of their products in the American Rifleman. Wanting a new, but mil-spec carbine, I called them and chatted for a bit, learning they were going to bring out the .22 Carbine, which they did, along with conversion kits (a new barrel) for the round. BTW, the US Army did test just such a cartridge in 1950s. Accuracy was better than the .30 carbine load, both slow fire and full auto (significantly less mean dispersion than .30; it shot flatter and troops doing the testing preferred it. There was also a company which did heavy customizing of M1 carbines in late 80s or early 90s, even reheat treating the actions and chambering them in various cartridges, including both Winchester 9mm Mag and 45 magnum. Mas Ayoob wrote about them in several articles. The 9mm version would make a heck of a PDW if select fire. The limiting factors of the M1 carbine are several, but the biggest is the gas system. The .22 Carbine idea might work better if it became the .20 Carbine - should be able to crack 3,000 fps without blowing anything up.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Could have modified all those left over M-1 Carbines to Spitfires and saved the cost and headaches of the M-16.

Is it time to don the flameproof suit yet?

They did try it in 1954 -55.

The parent case for their effort was a shortened .222 Remington case and had a little more powder capacity than the .22 Spitfire. The muzzle velocity they got out of the little case was insufficient, unless the pressures were allowed to go well over that of Caliber .30 Carbine.Also, it was felt that in order to get reliability were the Army needed it to be would require almost as much money and effort as a new rifle, so . . .

7. CONCLUSIONS.--It is concluded that:

a. Further development of the test high velocity caliber .22 cartridge for use in the modified carbine is not warranted.

b. The high velocity, small caliber principle has sufficient merit to warrant further investigation on a high priority basis.

c. A lightweight rifle utilizing the high velocity, small caliber principle should be developed at the earliest practicable date.

d. In general, the military characteristics presented in Board Nr 3 Report of Project Nr 2561 (ref 7, app IV) are adequate for initial guidance for further development.

8. RECOMMENDATIONS.--It is recommended that:

a. No further development of the test high velocity caliber .22 cartridge for use in a modified carbine be undertaken.

b, The investigation of the small caliber, high velocity principle be given a high priority.

c. A lightweight rifle utilizing the high velocity, small caliber principle be developed at the earliest practical date.

d. The military characteristics for rifles of high velocity and small caliber, as stated in reference 7, Appendix IV, be approved as interim guidance for development.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Typical advertising!

Unfortunately, an M1 or M2 Carbine has an 18 inch barrel, so the realized velocity is more along the lines of 2,800 fps with a 40 grain bullet. And, since the bullet is rather short and fat, it doesn't have the greatest BC, so as a combat round, it's pretty anemic.

 

[Gordon]

So that is where the .221 Remington Fireball idea was started !

 

[tark]

They did try it in 1954 -55.

The parent case for their effort was a shortened .222 Remington case and had a little more powder capacity than the .22 Spitfire. The muzzle velocity they got out of the little case was insufficient, unless the pressures were allowed to go well over that of Caliber .30 Carbine.Also, it was felt that in order to get reliability were the Army needed it to be would require almost as much money and effort as a new rifle, so . . .

7. CONCLUSIONS.--It is concluded that:

a. Further development of the test high velocity caliber .22 cartridge for use in the modified carbine is not warranted.

b. The high velocity, small caliber principle has sufficient merit to warrant further investigation on a high priority basis.

c. A lightweight rifle utilizing the high velocity, small caliber principle should be developed at the earliest practicable date.

d. In general, the military characteristics presented in Board Nr 3 Report of Project Nr 2561 (ref 7, app IV) are adequate for initial guidance for further development.

8. RECOMMENDATIONS.--It is recommended that:

a. No further development of the test high velocity caliber .22 cartridge for use in a modified carbine be undertaken.

b, The investigation of the small caliber, high velocity principle be given a high priority.

c. A lightweight rifle utilizing the high velocity, small caliber principle be developed at the earliest practical date.

d. The military characteristics for rifles of high velocity and small caliber, as stated in reference 7, Appendix IV, be approved as interim guidance for development.

View attachment 944831

I believe the project you describe here resulted in the carbine I am holding, in the Arsenal Museum. This carbine is a Winchester. The book dates it as circa 1953. It chambers a 22 caliber centerfire round, is select fire and employed a 20 round magazine....I think. It may have been more or less capacity, I haven't seen one, it is stored somewhere in the back room. It weighs just under five pounds. As one can see, the barrel is fluted to save weight. The book says it overheated during trials. The magazine well seems to be slightly larger than an M-1 carbine's So I can only speculate on the dimensions of the cartridge but it may well be the one in your attachment.

 

[tark]

Some of you may have noticed that the extractor is A.W.O.L. So is the hammer. The fire mode selector is front, left side of the receiver.

 

[Oldschool shooter]

I remenber an article from the early 80s where a guy necked down a 44 magnum to 22 caliber. Could only use the casings once due to pressure and fireforming making the brass brittle. Vaporized prarie dogs at 500 yards. Can't remember if I read about it in G&A or Shooting Times.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Gunparts used to sell the barrel.

 

[kBob]

I believe the project you describe here resulted in the carbine I am holding, in the Arsenal Museum. This carbine is a Winchester. The book dates it as circa 1953. It chambers a 22 caliber centerfire round, is select fire and employed a 20 round magazine....I think. It may have been more or less capacity, I haven't seen one, it is stored somewhere in the back room. It weighs just under five pounds. As one can see, the barrel is fluted to save weight. The book says it overheated during trials. The magazine well seems to be slightly larger than an M-1 carbine's So I can only speculate on the dimensions of the cartridge but it may well be the one in your attachment.

This is the Winchester Light Weight Military Rifle in its very own prepiorty .224 chambering by Winchester. It uses features of the G30 Winchester WAR and the M1 Carbine to acheive its light weight. supposedly a 52 brain bullet at 3000 fps MV.

Folks on THR have mentioned in the past "something like a Mini 14" was almost adopted rather than the AR15 and the WLWMR is what they were thinking about

Thank you for sharing. There is a Bruce Canfield American Rifleman article on it in from 2016 and one of the Ezell Small Arms of the World has some pictures and data I seem to recall.

-kBob

 

[kBob]

Gordon,

USAF played with the .221 Fireball in a full auto PDW for aircrew and Rough Puffs at one point. Some folks called them ARM GUNS . It may have been what inspired the original Bushmaster outfit to make their Bullpup like "pistol" where the magazine lays over the fore arm when the pistol grip is held. The .221 gun (NOT BY BUSHMASTER) was to be fired one handed to keep one hand free for other chores. It had a very high rate of fire and was planned to be used with a high tracer count like one Trace to two Ball to give it some range unaimed. It appeared to lack sights altogether. I seem to recall there was one at the USAF Armaments Museum near Ft. Walton Fl in the late 1980s but could be wrong and did not notice it five years ago.

For some reason everyone forgets the Bushmaster when talking about .223 "pistols" Perhaps because so many thought the rifle version with more traditional lay out was so awful.

The earliest ARs for experimental use were in .222 Appearently and the .222 Special soon to be .223 was developed to improve feeding and use the heavier/longer 55 grain bullet needed to pass the helmet penitration test at 500 yard with reliability. The lighter bullets in the .222 military versions of between 50 to 53 grains called for in the DOD test specs are why early ARs had a 1-14 twist rate and it worked for that. For that matter "Standard Weather" performance (sea level, 70 F, 70 %H) of the .223 seemed fine initially in the 1-14 but cold and high altitude caused issues and the twist was tightend. BTW shooting Green tips in 1-14 in even Standard Weather is not a good way to spend your range time. Dr. Fackler had a bolt action of some type so chambered and 1-14 twist and we had visible keyholing at 100 Meters from that rifle and worse groups than with either 1-12 or naturally 1-7.

-kBob

 

[lysanderxiii]

USAF played with the .221 Fireball in a full auto PDW for aircrew and Rough Puffs at one point. Some folks called them ARM GUNS . It may have been what inspired the original Bushmaster outfit to make their Bullpup like "pistol" where the magazine lays over the fore arm when the pistol grip is held. The .221 gun (NOT BY BUSHMASTER) was to be fired one handed to keep one hand free for other chores. It had a very high rate of fire and was planned to be used with a high tracer count like one Trace to two Ball to give it some range unaimed. It appeared to lack sights altogether. I seem to recall there was one at the USAF Armaments Museum near Ft. Walton Fl in the late 1980s but could be wrong and did not notice it five years ago.

-kBob

The Colt GUU-4/P. The GUU-4/P did have sights.

 

[kBob]

lysanderxiii,

That looks amazingly like the Bushmaster Arm gun, even to the sights.

I would have sworn the thing I saw had a barrel/ gas system shroud and looked almost like a Patchet Sterling SMG with the grip moved forward.

At one point I thought a purpose built AR 15 scaled down to the .221 fireball would be a neat PDW...until I started thinking logisticlly.

-kBob

 

[kBob]

May as well mention the Colt SCAMP while we are talking necked down to .22 cartridges.

There, I did.

-kBob

 

[Hookeye]

Dang that blew the cobwebs outta my skull.
Had forgotten about that little round.

Aint seen or even heard of it for proly 30 yrs.
Last carbine interest I had was the 45 winmag conversions.

 

[lysanderxiii]

lysanderxiii,

That looks amazingly like the Bushmaster Arm gun, even to the sights.

I would have sworn the thing I saw had a barrel/ gas system shroud and looked almost like a Patchet Sterling SMG with the grip moved forward.

At one point I thought a purpose built AR 15 scaled down to the .221 fireball would be a neat PDW...until I started thinking logisticlly.

-kBob

Concept art work:



The prototype/test GUU-4/Ps only used .221 because it was available. The end product was intended to be a .17 caliber. By the end of the project, Colt's was using more and more M16 parts in the design, and making them in .223 Remington/5.56mm to use existing magazines that were reliable.



The basic concept of the new gun was developed by the Dale Davis of USAF Armaments Laboratory, and several prototypes were built by Colt. Mack Gwinn of Gwinn Firearms took the idea and streamlined it, made it reasonably producible, and marketed it as the Arm Pistol. You may know Gwinn Firearms by their later name - Bushmaster.

 

[lysanderxiii]

May as well mention the Colt SCAMP while we are talking necked down to .22 cartridges.

There, I did.

-kBob

That's another of Colt's "also ran", and a pretty unsightly one at that:




From left to right: .32 ACP, 9mm Parabellum, .45 ACP, .22 Colt's SCAMP, 4.6mm x 30 H&K, 5.7mmx 28 FN, .22 Johnson Spitfire, .30 Carbine, .22 APG Carbine, 5.56mmx30 Colt's MARS, .221 Colt's IMP

Colt's SCAMP is the first bottle-neck from the left, .22 Spitfire, and the Army .22 Carbine flanking the .30 Carbine (note the fatter, and slight longer case for the Army's version, it was based on the .222 Rem), and on the far right, the .221 Colt IMP.

 

[kBob]

OOGLY it was. I like the two position sling swivel in the way of the sights or in the way of the muzzle!

the selector switch seems in an unreachable position as well....neat idea though, just took another 30 years to make something of it.

-kBob

 

[lysanderxiii]

OOGLY it was. I like the two position sling swivel in the way of the sights or in the way of the muzzle!

the selector switch seems in an unreachable position as well....neat idea though, just took another 30 years to make something of it.

-kBob

Although, it is not the first to use such a configuration:

 

[4v50 Gary]

Just checked GunParts. No more barrels.

 

[Tommygunn]

I see a couple of guns Buck Rogers would have liked .....

 

[kBob]

Well, that BSA SMG is supposed to have a stock that goes on the rear and doubles as a holster during a jump. not really a pistola.

-kBob

 

[lysanderxiii]

Well, that BSA SMG is supposed to have a stock that goes on the rear and doubles as a holster during a jump. not really a pistola.

-kBob

It was either.

 

[kBob]

As that BSA thing fires from an open bolt, pistol use must have been "interesting" I fired a Mac 10 SMG on semi as a pistol ( and yes tried Full auto)

Tucked in with the firing elbow hard against one's side and holding the muzzle strap with the off hand sor tof worked , but needed both hands and was point shoot only.

One handed it just did not want to work for reliable hits on target even at 7 yards. Nose down as the bolt went forward and usually toward the inside of the hold. So low left for us right handers. Full auto one handed was, well, comical.

I suppose two handed with the BSA with the support hand on the knurled forward bit and stiff out support arm might have worked "OK" I have shot folded rifles like an AR-180 like that and the Leader pistol) but seems sort of like cheating when calling it a hand gun. Hands Gun, maybe?

But we have wandered away from .22/.30 Carbine

Did anyone make an "enforcer" style M1 Carbine pistol in .22 MMJ or 5.7 Spitfire or whatever?

Noisy Cricket !

-kBob