M16 in Afghanistan

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SwissArmyDad

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So, what is the main reason that the 5.56 is running out of gas out past 400-600 yards? Or is that just an internet rumor?

Is it the round, or does it mostly come down to optics, for those that are running ACOGs/Aimpoints? (more of a 0-300 yard setup) What if they used long range glass on the same rifle?

Even though the rounds trajectory would be fairly rainbow shaped, would it be on target with enough oompfh to get the job done?

Has this been tried? Seems like I see a lot of Rem 700's, M14's and Barrett's with traditional magnified optics on them, but not AR's.

What are SDM fielding at this point?


Not trying to solve a problem, mostly just wondering what's currently being tried downrange to stretch the M4/M16's reach, since it seems like cartridge/platform change is a long time in coming...
 
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Theres so much hype to the 5.56 cal since the 90s as a 400 yd gun. Its making an anthill into a molehill. 500 -600 yds belong to the .3006 make no mistake about it.
 
well,back in original design areas in the 60's,vietnam didn't have much open areas as the desert does,hence the smaller cartridge.now with the desert areas,wider open spaces,14.5 inch barrels on the m4's comepared with the 20 inch a2's,maximum effective yardage shrinks.unless you happen to be one of the gifted few who know how to shoot long range.
 
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The problem is that the round is going below critical velocity to reliably fragment, which is what gives it its effectiveness. Without fragmentation, it's a glorified 22lr. 5.56 is very dependent on velocity for its fragenting, and hence its effectiveness. Out of a 20" barrel M16, it's lost too much velocity by around 450M to reliably fragment. The 16" M4's are even worse, with the rounds going below fragmentation velocity at about 150M. The tactical AR's that have the super short barrels but have the permanently attached hiders or brakes on the end to read 16" are even worse than that.

400M isn't really intermediate range either, so that's beyond the intended distance for assault rifles. This is compounded by lighter projectiles and shorter barrel lengths. Shorter barrels give less energy to begin with, and lighter projectiles which depend on having high velocity in order to deal death blows become dramatically less effective as the range increases. By about 400M anyway, if any infantryman opens fire, he probably has the long range rifle with optics. I believe that back in the Korean War, soldiers rarely fired until the enemy was within 200M, and they had marksman training and guns which really could pick off men at 900M.

We've introduced Designated Marksman in order to give some distance firepower to the infantry, copying from a Russian idea from the Chechen Wars. The DM's have M14's which can do the 600M kills no problem.
 
I shoot 400+ yards with an AR on a fairly regular basis using a 1-4x scope. I have a 20" barrel and have shot mostly 55gr ammo without issue. Now steel plate is different but I know solid center of mass hits can be made at 400-600y. If you know your holds.

Sure an AR10 or M14 will reach out with more power but the weapon is much heavier as is the ammo which limit the amount the individual soldier can carry. And since many of the guys are humping a good deal over 100lbs to begin with, adding extra weight only hinders troop movement.
 
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Shooting any caliber at distance requires elevation and windage adjustment. I don't get people poopooing the 5.56mm. Doesn't matter if its a .22lr at 250 yards or .375 cheytac at 2500 yards.
 
If you have an M16 or M4 and need to reach out past 400y, load it up with MK262. The 5.56 is very capable of long range performance.
 
No centerfire .22 does much damage beyond 400 to 500 yards, compared to under 400. Not the Swift, the .22-250 or any other. Maybe bad on prairie dogs or even coyotes, but little effectiveness on people, barring a lucky hit.

A 62-grain boat-tail with an MV of 3,600 is down to around 2,000 at 500 yards.

For an MV of 3,000, it's 1,600 at 500 yards.

(Speer reloading manual data.)
 
I strongly disagree. The military DM's are making one shot kills beyond 500m with the MK262 ammunition. Your opinion of "little effectiveness on people" is countered with piles of our enemy's bodies.
 
Designated Marksmen generally carry M14s with magnified optics of some sort, coupled with machine gunners with M240Bs. Those guns and the 7.62 rounds the fire are very effective for the 400+ yard engagements. Honestly the M4 is a CQB and medium distance engagement weapon and so is the 5.56 round. Not to say soldiers shouldn't be firing at targets farther out, but it's generally going to be in a supressive role, and even the just to augment the machine guns.
 
Designated Marksmen generally carry M14s with magnified optics of some sort, coupled with machine gunners with M240Bs. Those guns and the 7.62 rounds the fire are very effective for the 400+ yard engagements. Honestly the M4 is a CQB and medium distance engagement weapon and so is the 5.56 round. Not to say soldiers shouldn't be firing at targets farther out, but it's generally going to be in a supressive role, and even the just to augment the machine guns.
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I see, and am I right in thinking that the m14 and M240 both shoot .308 nato?
 
I think at least the range issue in Afghanistan is not in fact the wide open spaces of the desert (of which there is no shortage) but rather the combination of sparsely vegetated mountains. You've got troops on the side of one mountain and lo and behold, across the valley/canyon one can actually see the enemy on the opposite mountain. In the flatland...and I mean flat...it is very hard to see man sized targets beyond the stated and/or designed in range of the 5.56...thus we saw no issues, perceived or real, in Iraq. Likewise Vietnam where there was so much vegetation. Nor probably would you have had issues with the 5.56 in Korea, France, Germany, Okinawa...probably even Flanders. Now comes Afghanistan where, as I said, you can probably see the enemy...if you have a sharp eye and/or a pair of binoculars...1000, 1500 meters away.

I can't say much about the ballistics of any caliber frankly but it's that dry mountainous terrain that has challenged (apparently) the current military doctrine of all mid-sized calibers. I wouldn't think the Taliban is having any different luck with the 7.62x39. Sure, you could empty a mag real quick across the canyon at the troopers and maybe a round or two would get close but you could do same with 5.56 I would think.
 
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/highpower.asp

Here is a link to a little info about NRA Service Rifle. Competitors shoot out to 600 yards with iron sights on ARs. The target is huge (scaled for 600) but a good shooter will be landing them in the 10 all day. While paper is easy to kill, I would think the bullets still are very lethal at that range. Considering a .22 lr is considered dangerous for a mile, I would not want to be hit by anything at 600 yards.


HB
 
In my experience with A2s the accuracy wasn't that great, 3-6 inch groups at 100yds (not because I don't know how to shoot, I qualified expert every time, we also put a Nightforce scope on about 5 different ones), granted my units had old guns but equipment is not treated well in the military, no matter the unit. Most of them that we were shooting were FNs with poor fit, they rattled a lot, the military's guns aren't made by Rock River or any other decent maker, lowest bidder. Even the Colts I shot were not of the same quality of civilian market Colts.
 
No centerfire .22 does much damage beyond 400 to 500 yards, compared to under 400. Not the Swift, the .22-250 or any other. Maybe bad on prairie dogs or even coyotes, but little effectiveness on people, barring a lucky hit.
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It's all relative, I know of few men who would want to chance the damage they would take at 5-600 yards from a 223/556 hit. If the enemy is 500 yds away our guys have the superior weapon compared to the enemy and can probably give pretty good aimed fire. If the target is in the open or at least visible there is little question in my mind that they are adequately armed especially given the presence of the 240 .762 to keep the bad guys heads down.
 
Designated Marksmen generally carry M14s with magnified optics of some sort
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Speaking with current and former DMs that is not the case. The M14s are getting mothballed in favor of the MK12 and MK18. In the field, there are currently more DMs fielding the MK12 and MK18 than are fielding the M14. The M14 DMR was a hurried solution.
 
There is so much BS on the internet these days that folks take as the truth it is no longer funny.
A bullet does not just peter -out and float like a feather to the ground.
Does it slow down? Yes Does it loose energy?Yes. Is it still lethal at 600 yards and further? Very much so. While it may not get the bad guy behind a mud wall, if it hits you it will do a lot of damage.
I run a long range shooting club. We shoot out to 1,000 yards with open sights. Our most common range is 500 meters where I control a remotely driven steel target.
Here is a photo of our 5/8" cold rolled steel target set to 500 meters and was struck by 7.62x54R heavy ball, .303 Britt MkVII Ball, .30 M1 Carbine 110 grain FMJ and M855 5.56 Ball. All did damage and left a mark. Even the pooped-pot .30 carbine hit hard enough that it could clearly be heard. the 5.56 round did not do a lot of damage but it did blow up and sounded like a sledge hammer hit the plate.
steelgong7.jpg
 
M855 can still penetrate a steel helmet at 500m. It will happily sail right through you, and an "A" zone hit is going to ruin your entire month. Obviously a 7.62x51 has more horsepower at that distance. But just hitting a target with a standard infantry rifle or carbine of whatever caliber at those distances is pretty rare (and has been since soldiers broke out of their rank and file formations and ditched their bright uniforms for camo at the end of the 19th century).

Keep in mind these are real people, at unknown distance, in unknown wind conditions, who are probably thousands of feet of elevation and many degrees of temperature off from where you zeroed last, who are moving and taking advantage of cover and concealment. They don't stand next to the 500 yard wind flag in a bright shirt and wait while you walk a few rounds in.
 
Speaking with current and former DMs that is not the case. The M14s are getting mothballed in favor of the MK12 and MK18. In the field, there are currently more DMs fielding the MK12 and MK18 than are fielding the M14. The M14 DMR was a hurried solution.
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Dang, lucky lol. I'm in the Guard, so all I saw was M14s. I suppose the active guys would bet issued the newer stuff.
 
Keep in mind these are real people, at unknown distance, in unknown wind conditions, who are probably thousands of feet of elevation and many degrees of temperature off from where you zeroed last, who are moving and taking advantage of cover and concealment. They don't stand next to the 500 yard wind flag in a bright shirt and wait while you walk a few rounds in.
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Yep ^
 
Yeah, 5.56x45 is what you want to disable the engine of a VBIED heading full speed to your check-point and your 7.62 MG goes down. It'll make nice little pocket marks if it even gets past the grill to make a hit.
I'll take something else thank you.
 
Yeah, 5.56x45 is what you want to disable the engine of a VBIED heading full speed to your check-point and your 7.62 MG goes down. It'll make nice little pocket marks if it even gets past the grill to make a hit.
I'll take something else thank you.
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That has nothing to do with my original question.

Please start a separate 5.56 bashing thread if you feel the need.
 
Dang, lucky lol. I'm in the Guard, so all I saw was M14s. I suppose the active guys would bet issued the newer stuff.
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Current situation is the M14s are being replaced by M110s. My brother is a DM currently in A-stan. He's never had an issue with a torso hit on an enemy with the 5.56 in Iraq or A-stan. Said it's like deer hunting. Hit the heart or lungs and they're going to die real soon. Currently his unit is changing over to the M110 for the DMs. Heavier and less ammunition and he misses the availability of grabbing some 5.56 M855 from a fellow soldier if he ran out of MK262. With 7.62 only, when he's out, he's got a club. The next DM can be quite a ways away to pass over a few mags.
 
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