M1903 22-250

[EastonTexas]

I was wondering if a rock island m1903 with the serial number 245951 be safe to shoot in a 22-250. Also accuracy expected and the value of this gun in 90% good condition? I have little knowledge of these but read some on lower number reciever problems?

 

[troy fairweather]

yup it's fine 800,000 and down are the ones you don't want maybe 1,000,000 to be safe. i had a 358 norma mag on a 2.5 million the accuracy is unknown to you shoot it. should be within 2moa .the value i would say is $250 maybe $300

 

[MachIVshooter]

Your 245k S/N is before the changes for RI made 1903s, but there were also several years of RI which never had failures, and even the peak occurrences were low. More importantly, if memory serves, not a single rifle has failed with standard pressure cartridges; all failures were with >70,000 PSI loads.

http://m1903.com/03rcvrfail/

I have a low number Springfield M1903, shoot it without hesitation. That said, I don't punish it with max loads. 150 grainers at 2,700 do just fine. If I had your rifle, I'd just keep the loads a little lighter and enjoy it.

 

[troy fairweather]

ya a 50gr bullet in the 22-250 at 3600 will be plenty. no need to push it super fast.

 

[EastonTexas]

For now I was only referring to factory loads 22-250. And the asking price was $625. I couldn't figure out how it was possibly worth that but it does look nice. I was also curious on average what expected accuracy would be

 

[MachIVshooter]

the asking price was $625. I couldn't figure out how it was possibly worth that but it does look nice.

It would have to be a really nicely done sporter for me to even consider paying that. $625-ish gets you a brand new .22-250 from a number of manufacturers, including Remington, Ruger, Tikka, Savage, Howa/Weatherby vanguard, Bergara

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

Too much money. The rifle in the OP is $350 if the mounts are done properly. And I would prefer it to come with glass at that price.

It’s a bog standard basic sporter.

 

[EastonTexas]

Yeah I'll try to get them to go down to a reasonable price. It's a pawn shop I'm guessing they are trying to price it referencing a good quality normal m1903. Even the few things I pulled up in that caliber I couldn't find it for more than 400. Even if they do price it fair I hate it falls into the low serial number category. What could I possibly expect on accuracy with factory loads? I know that can vary but just trying to get an average to best expectation?

 

[troy fairweather]

i would most be worried about the scope bases if there the right ones, if they where mounted properly. never buy a gun that was drilled and taped untie you take them off and look. check that they are level to. 03 bases can be hard to find to. 22-250 guns can be risky to buy, you don't know the round count. i could shoot good for 100 rounds then you can't hit a barn with it. i would try to get it for the cost of the action and stock.

 

[EastonTexas]

I own 22-250s and I like military guns so I thought it was cool. I understand what you are saying about them but I guess I'm trying to say if everything checked out good barrel, rifling, scope mounts, scope, and knowing how to shoot, etc. all the above....what could be expected? Would the accuracy even be worth comparing to a Remington 700 or something like a ruger american etc.?

 

[troy fairweather]

it could be 1 or 2 inch gun at 100 or even a 1/2 inch gun, no way to tell. 03s actions can make very good shooters. my 358nm was a 1/2 moa gun.

 

[EastonTexas]

Alright I appreciate the replys

 

[EastonTexas]

Your 245k S/N is before the changes for RI made 1903s, but there were also several years of RI which never had failures, and even the peak occurrences were low. More importantly, if memory serves, not a single rifle has failed with standard pressure cartridges; all failures were with >70,000 PSI loads.

http://m1903.com/03rcvrfail/

I have a low number Springfield M1903, shoot it without hesitation. That said, I don't punish it with max loads. 150 grainers at 2,700 do just fine. If I had your rifle, I'd just keep the loads a little lighter and enjoy it.

Was you saying you have one in a 22-250 and you load it to a lower pressure?

 

[troy fairweather]

he pretty much is saying don't hotrod on earlier actions. any factory 22-250 is fine to use. 22-250 rem max psi is 65,000 the 03s were tested with a 70,000 psi.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

I was wondering if a rock island m1903 with the serial number 245951 be safe to shoot in a 22-250. Also accuracy expected and the value of this gun in 90% good condition? I have little knowledge of these but read some on lower number reciever problems?

Welcome to the forum!

Here is a link to download Julian Hatcher's notes on the Army's attempts to determine if the single-heat treated '03 receivers are safe. He was one of the heads of the Ordnance Dept. and THE foremost authority on such things. I recommend you read it and decide for yourself-

http://photos.imageevent.com/badger...hersnotebook/Hatchers_Notebook_searchable.pdf

After reading this, I decided to hang up my low-numbered gun for good as Im rather fond of my face and fingers.

This is a great resource and fascinating treatise on many other military rifle topics as well.

 

[EastonTexas]

Alright thanks for the info. Kinda makes me not want it for that reason. Even if the rounds are under the pressure mentioned earlier it makes more since to just buy something I know will be no problems and at the current asking price of $625 there plenty of options. But I do like military guns and chambered to 22-250 sounded nice. Looked and felt good. Even coming down on the price being low numbered is disappointing though...

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Alright thanks for the info. Kinda makes me not want it for that reason. Even if the rounds are under the pressure mentioned earlier it makes more since to just buy something I know will be no problems and at the current asking price of $625 there plenty of options. But I do like military guns and chambered to 22-250 sounded nice. Looked and felt good. Even coming down on the price being low numbered is disappointing though...

I know its not quite the same thing, but the Ruger M77 is a Mauser action, like the Springfield, and is available in .22-250.

 

[EastonTexas]

I'll check it out thanks

 

[Nature Boy]

I’m a sucker for these sporterized 03’s. Your pics look like it was nicely done. I’d low ball him and see what he says. If there’s no sale give him your phone number and walk away. He might just call you before you get too far down the road.

PS: being a 22-250 means you might need to be prepared for the barrel being toast. Factor that into your offer

 

[boom boom]

A few things that you might consider--one is that the SAAMI max pressure on a 22-250 (65,000 versus 70,000 proof for the m1903 in .30-06 ) is very close to the proof load used to test the 1903 receiver.

Second, the issue with the low-number 1903 receivers are that it is brittle from overcarburization of the receivers. In ordinary case hardening, the center is relatively soft to absorb shock while the surface is hardened for wear and strength. A brittle receiver is hardened all the way through. Brittle receivers can be quite strong, like a water glass in your hand is hard to crush, but if you drop the glass (unexpected shock), perhaps even a few inches on a hard surface--it can crack and shatter. If you think of a bolt as a hammer activated by firing around, then the shock of this hammer can trigger the destruction of the receiver in an unpredictable fashion. Gas events can also trigger this as overpressure rounds obviously. Outside of destructive testing, there is little way to determine if any particular low number receiver fits the bill for being brittle.

Like the other thread on pressure conversions from cup to psi, it is difficult to transfer old specifications for issued .30-06 ammo to the present. Near as I can gather, the issued ammo was around 50k to 55k depending on who you believe. Some using old issue ammo (long thread in cast boolits over this one) report up to 60k which is the current SAAMI max for the .30-06 but firing 50-75 year old cartridges probably does not give an accurate pressure measure of the original ammunition.

Slamfire might have the original pressure specs from old War dept. documents but I am too lazy to search for them right now.

That being said, no one can really predict whether or not a particular 1903 low numbered rifle is safe to fire absent destructive testing even using .30-06. Given .22-250 was formalized in the 1960's by SAAMI, modern metallurgy of the 1960's is certainly up to the task.

From your serial number, your rifle would have been made sometime during 1917 when Rock Island restarted production which apparently had some issues with material shortages, worker training, etc. The War Department was desperate to get more rifles now along with other war supplies led to problems in contractors and materials.

Someone had this rifle and fired it and the rifle was not destroyed. Whether or not, this particular rifle will continue to be safe to fire depends on basically unknowable factors apart from obvious safety defects such as a cracked receiver ring, lug setback, etc. Only you can address your own risk tolerance.

 

[hps1]

Welcome to the forum!

Here is a link to download Julian Hatcher's notes on the Army's attempts to determine if the single-heat treated '03 receivers are safe. He was the head of the Ordnance Dept. and THE foremost authority on such things. I recommend you read it and decide for yourself-

http://photos.imageevent.com/badger...hersnotebook/Hatchers_Notebook_searchable.pdf

After reading this, I decided to hang up my low-numbered gun for good as Im rather fond of my face and fingers.

This is a great resource and fascinating treatise on many other military rifle topics as well.

Gen. Hatcher was THE resident expert on everything Springfield. Thanks for this link; it will save me looking for my copy of Hatcher's Notebook that has resided in my book shelf for 50 years or more and is well worn. Not to mention the time the search feature will save.

Regards,
hps

 

[tark]

Your 245k S/N is before the changes for RI made 1903s, but there were also several years of RI which never had failures, and even the peak occurrences were low. More importantly, if memory serves, not a single rifle has failed with standard pressure cartridges; all failures were with >70,000 PSI loads.

http://m1903.com/03rcvrfail/

I have a low number Springfield M1903, shoot it without hesitation. That said, I don't punish it with max loads. 150 grainers at 2,700 do just fine. If I had your rifle, I'd just keep the loads a little lighter and enjoy it.

Change at Rock Island was at #285,507. Low numbered guns most assuredly DID fail with standard ammo, one blew up with a gallery load.

Not much to add to the above posts, they spell it out pretty clearly. I would not do it.

 

[CapnMac]

Now, in the 30s Springfield Armory actually made sporters on the military production line, just to keep it open.
One of those, with provenance, would easily be worth $650 (actually, way more to the right collector).

But, to my knowledge (and from a quick glance through Book of the Springfield) RIA never made sporters, so the pawn shop might want to lay off quite so much rope in their pipe.

That price is easily 2x reality.

I'm also presuming you left a digit out in the OP, as a 200K number is way lower than the 800K threshold for receiver safety.

 

[EastonTexas]

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Now, in the 30s Springfield Armory actually made sporters on the military production line, just to keep it open.
One of those, with provenance, would easily be worth $650 (actually, way more to the right collector).

But, to my knowledge (and from a quick glance through Book of the Springfield) RIA never made sporters, so the pawn shop might want to lay off quite so much rope in their pipe.

That price is easily 2x reality.

I'm also presuming you left a digit out in the OP, as a 200K number is way lower than the 800K threshold for receiver safety.

800K was the point at which Springfield Armory changed over to double-heat treating, Capn. Rock Island did so at #285k, meaning the OPs rifle was one of the earlier (and questionable) single treated receivers.