M1a as long range hunter

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What's its barrel length and twist rate?

Standard Springfield SOCOM barrel. 16.25" with a 1:11 right hand twist.

I suspect you're going to say something about the twist rate being fast enough for a slightly heavier bullet but I think that most of us can agree that the rifle was never designed for bullets heavier than 175 grains. I know that you can make heavier bullets work but then we start having to think about an adjustable gas plug and things like that but regardless how you compensate the operating system for the heavier bullet you will subject the rifle to heavier recoil energy which will wear the rifle's parts and the shooter more. I don't really do any long range shooting with any of my M1As any more so I have no need to push the envelope.
 
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I suspect you're going to say something about the twist rate being fast enough for a slightly heavier bullet but I think that most of us can agree that the rifle was never designed for bullets heavier than 175 grains.
Right you are. A 1:12 twist was marginally fast enough. 1:11's were better.

The Army team rebulleted M118 match ammo with Sierra 180 HPMK's with great success; the most accurate long range load they ever used. Some tried the USN and USAF long range load for their Garands, M118 primed case with 44gr. of IMR4320 under Sierra 190 HPMK's. It was too much for the M14 gas system and the recoil was too punishing. Accuracy was barely acceptable on hot days as the 22" barrels shot that bullet almost not fast enough.

When Sierra changed that 180 MK's boat tail to that of their 168, it's BC dropped enough that it usually went subsonic around 850 to 900 yards. Thousand yard accuracy went from "tea cup to gallon jug" as someone said. A special contract was let to Sierra to make a several thousand of their original boat tail version.
 
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The simple fact is that I don't have American tax dollars that I can spend on replacing barrels, all of the military rifle teams experiment with their own hand loads but that does not change the fact that the rifle was never DESIGNED to use bullets heavier than the 150 to 165 grain weights. Yes, the twist rate implies that I should be able to use bullets as heavy as 180 grains to maybe 200 but the mechanics of the rifle don't like the pounding that those bullets produce, I don't like the recoil, and I don't do anything with th rifle that would make the higher maintenance costs reasonable.
 
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The M14 was designed to also use the military match bullet at 172 grains. The arsenal's M14 and M60 arm's proof load was that bullet replacing an M80 round's 148-gr bullet. It was also used in competition and called "Mexican Match" (from like ammo used by the USA rifle team in the Mexico City Summer Olympics) no harm to M1 or M14NM rifles.

Many are convinced the Garand was a sturdier rifle as it digested that 7.62 load with 190's without issues. And the airmen and sailors shooting it took the increased recoil in stride and never missed a step.
 
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No, the rifle was designed around the cartridge and the original cartridge that they started development with was the T65 which had a 147gr bullet. The final NATO cartridge that the M14 was designed around was the old M59 ball cartridge that used a 150gr bullet. After the rifle was finally developed they also designated other ammunition that would work within it's design parameters without modification and most of them stayed within the 140 - 150 grain weights. The rifle was developed and officially designated the M14 in 1957 and the 168 grain and 172 grain bullets were developed for snipers and competition shooters around 1961, so no, the rifle was never developed to use a 172gr bullet. The 168gr and 172gr bullets were developed after the rifle was developed because the National Match shooters needed a 1000 yard capable bullet and the military snipers needed a better long range bullet.
 
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The 172-gr FMJBT bullet was designed in the 1920's based on long range tests on Daytona Beach, FL, for long range machine gun use. Soon, the standard service 30-06 M1 bullet until the late 1930's when replaced by the M2 150 grain flat base spitzer bullet. It became the match bullet for the 30-06 cartridge about 1925 and both Frankfort and Lake City arsenal's used it. When the 7.62x51mm NATO was adopted in the 1950’s the Office of the Chief or Ordnance had Frankford Arsenal begin work on developing a match grade version of the 7.62 using that match bullet designed 30 some odd years earlier that would also be used by snipers. That same 172-gr bullet was used in proof loads for all weapons using 7.62 NATO ammo from that round's inception. Lake City started making 7.62 match ammo in the early '60's which really were proof loads at 67,500 cup reduced to 50,000 cup with about 42 grains of IMR4895. Frankfort Arsenal tried some loads with Winchester ball powder but it was not nearly as good as IMR4895.

Sierra developed in 1958, their 168-gr hollow point match bullet arsenal's first used in M852 7.62 match ammo in the 1980's. They worked in company with the US Army International Rifle Team for a bullet to use in international 300 meter free rifle matches. It often replaced M80 ball ammo's bullets for use in competition.

All this is Ivory Soap information; 99 and 44 one-hundredths percent pure.
 
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I would think a CDS scope and ARMS mount would be a good ticket. My standard M1a doesnt feel heavy. In fact that is why I kept it and sold the NM. Now If I could keep the added weight to 1.5 lb I agree it would be maximum you would want to walk with but should be balanced.
 
Regardless of the when the heavier bullets were made, they were not made for use in the M14, you even point out that the 172 grain bullet was designed for the M1 Garand. The M14 was designed around the 147gr T65 and the 150gr M59, that's what the design specs called for. In fact, the military eventually went back to the 147gr bullet in the form of the M80 cartridge because they found that it performed better than the 150gr bullet - kind of like the rifle was designed to work with a 147gr bullet isn't it.

You keep talking about bullets that were used years after the rifle's design phase and development tests were finished, and that's different than what I'm tying to say.

I keep trying to point out that the M14 rifle was actually designed around a specific cartridge and bullet, the T65. The only bullet that was used in the T65 was a 147gr FMJ, they did not have any concern for what other ammo would be used in the rifle during the design and development phase so the mechanics of the rifle were initially DESIGNED for a 147 bullet in a slightly different case than they have now. Later, after slight modifications to the mechanics and the chamber, they settled on the M59 cartridge with a 150gr as the standard military issue but even that changed and they went back to a 147gr bullet (the M80 cartridge) because it performed better - probably because the bullet matched the original design better, kinda supports my claim that the rifle wasn't built for heavier bullets, yes, they can work in the rifle (I prefer 165gr and higher for hunting and long range shooting), but the rifle simply was not designed for their use.

Yes, other bullets weights were and are used, yes, a proof load was used and like all proof loads they use a heavier bullet for that cartridge but all proof loads are meant to be used ONE time as a test, not for regular use. I'm not talking about fringe ammo that was used for testing or specialty circumstances, the cartridges used under those circumstances are not considered to be the everyday ammo that will work in the rifle without undue pressure or wear, the heavier bullets are used to perform a purpose without regards to any damage that they may do to the rifle, the military has lots of money and they can repair the rifle as needed, I can't. I have a limited budget and can't take the chance of ruining barrels or blowing up receivers.

The current standard issue ammo for the M14 is a 147gr ball round for standard infantry use because that's what the rifle was built to use. The military uses that bullet weight because after millions of rounds they've found that that bullet weight works best for general duty purposes. They also issue a special long range 175gr SMK for the snipers (and even they can have a hard time getting a steady supply of the 175gr ammo in the field because the military just doesn't make that many of those cartridges) and competition shooters. The current long range ammo used by snipers is the MK 316 MOD 0 which uses a 175gr SMK, it replaced the old M118LR cartridge that also used a 175ish grain bullet because the M118LR cartridges - are you ready for this? - were blowing up the rifles in the heat of Afghanistan - hmmm, imagine that, exactly what I've been trying to say, the heavier bullets create forces that wear out the rifle quicker. Yes they can be used but you have to be aware of the potential problems that they can create and do what is necessary to compensate as best as you can. Oh, and here's a fun piece of trivia for the M14 slamfire experts, the MK 316 MOD 0 uses the dreaded Federal F210M primer that supposedly blows all M14s up with slamfires.
 
I'm more of a pragmatist about my guns, if there is a reason for them then I keep them and use them for that purpose. My old standard M1A is kept for nostalgia, it's a 1975 model rifle with the original stock and most of the parts are original, the Loaded model is my accurized rifle that I like to use for long range work, and my SOCOM is my work horse that I throw in to the truck or carry while hiking in bear, wolf, lion, and moose country. I honestly don't think that I'd prefer to use any of them on a really tough hunt except maybe the SOCOM. That SOCOM has been dropped, stuck in the mud, covered in snow and ice, and covered in blood and elk parts while being dragged out in a sled and it doesn't show any sign of damage or malfunctioning. But even then I just bought a custom 30-06 bolt action rifle for a real all-around hunting rifle so while I love the M1A rifles I'd recommend a good bolt action rifle for long range hunting in the 300 class.
 
you even point out that the 172 grain bullet was designed for the M1 Garand.
It was designed for machine guns and the M1903 rifles in the mid 1920's. It's cartridge name was 30 caliber M1 in the 1920's long before the M1 rifle came about. When the 172 was replaced with a 150, it was the 30 caliber M2 cartridge.

Peak pressures for both M80 and M118 rounds are the same at 50,000 cup.
 
I have an M1A, that I think is a lot of fun. This might meet the OPs spec for low profile:
m1a-1.jpg

OTOH, the scope has an adjustment lock, so cranking the turret for extra elevation isn't really practical. It runs out of BDC at 600yds (and it is capable of reliably connecting with a 10" plate there) but that's about twice as far as I prefer to shoot big game.
I'm lucky enough to own other rifles, that I consider better choices for hunting.
My favorite "long" range rifle is a single shot.
 
The Scout Squad (formerly known as "Bush") seems like a handy size. IIRC, it's a full length gas system, unlike the Socom.
FYI, I saw a 40fps/inch velocity loss in 150gr bullets when I cut a Savage barrel from 22" to 18".
 
Granted I was a hell of a lot younger back then, but I carried one during ITR, and AITR while going thru Marine Corps combat training, don't remember being all that heavy back then. However, when I got to Vietnam they gave us a Mattel Shooting Shell AKA M16, and many times I had wished I would have had that rifle I was so fond of back in my hands.
 
However, when I got to Vietnam they gave us a Mattel Shooting Shell AKA M16,
... and some called them Mickey Mouse Guns. All of which is why one of the US Military Rifle Teams wore Mickey Mouse sweatshirts when shooting them during their first use in the DCM matches at the 1971 Nationals at Camp Perry.
M16-1971.jpg
 
The Scout Squad (formerly known as "Bush") seems like a handy size. IIRC, it's a full length gas system, unlike the Socom.
FYI, I saw a 40fps/inch velocity loss in 150gr bullets when I cut a Savage barrel from 22" to 18".

The SOCOM uses the exact same gas system as the full sized rifles.
 
It was designed for machine guns and the M1903 rifles in the mid 1920's. It's cartridge name was 30 caliber M1 in the 1920's long before the M1 rifle came about. When the 172 was replaced with a 150, it was the 30 caliber M2 cartridge.

Peak pressures for both M80 and M118 rounds are the same at 50,000 cup.

Umm, yes, and so that means that those bullets existed before the M14 was designed, it doesn't mean that the M14 rifle was designed to use those bullets. You can easily find information from the CMP and other sources that explain that the cartridge was designed first and then the rifle was built around that cartridge.

You keep trying to say that since the heavier bullets existed then that means that the rifle was designed to use them and that's actually not true. The rifle was designed using a 147 grain bullet, the fact that other .30 caliber bullets were used after the rifle was created is incidental to what was used during the development of the M14 rifle.

It doesn't really matter anyways since all of these bullet weights are used in cartridges that use the same maximum pressures so who really cares, and since you simply refuse to see my point and you prefer to just continue to argue over something that's pretty obvious I'm just going to step away from the craziness.
 
thanks
Does the gas port/cylinder sit farther back on the barrel?

The port and cylinder are the same place relative to the receiver because I can swap my op rod from my full sized rifles. Basically they just cut the barrel down to just in front of the gas lock and change the gas port diameter and the make the brake and front sight one piece.
 
I would think a CDS scope and ARMS mount would be a good ticket. My standard M1a doesnt feel heavy. In fact that is why I kept it and sold the NM. Now If I could keep the added weight to 1.5 lb I agree it would be maximum you would want to walk with but should be balanced.
I'd go with less than that, like 12 ounces.
 
I tried it years ago in Florida. I was convinced i had the perfect gun to handle deer and feral hogs. Accurate, quick follow-ups, and .308 is plenty capable of knocking 'em down. Then i actually carried the thing a bit - and it promptly was relegated to just a range toy. too heavy. There's a reason everyone raves about something being lightweight And the M1A is anything but.
 
A good reference on the M14's future use of 172-gr. bullets comes from Frank Hackley’s book, History of Modern US Military Small Arms Ammunition, Volume III: 1946 - 1977, Part II, Carbine, Rifle and Machine Gun Ammunition, pages 183 and 184:

The development of a 7.62mm match cartridge for use by Army teams in regional and national matches started as early as 1953 at Frankford Arsenal. A cartridge head stamped FA 53 with brass primer and red sealant, and a “Type III Bullet,” is undoubtedly an example of this early effort. The bullet is a GM-jacketed and appears to be a modified Cal .30 M1 ball. Another early experiment math round from Frankford Arsenal has a long GMCS jacketed bullet without a crimping cannelure, loaded to an overall length of about 2.986 in. In a case headstamped (NATO symbol) FA 55 with nickel plated primer and read seal. This round was probably for single loading, but further details are not available. A cartridge with an FA 58 MATCH headstamp with brass primer and orange sealant has been examined. The bullet is GM-jacketed and appears to be a 173-gr. Cal .30 M1 ball loaded to an overall cartridge length of 2.85 in. It is not know what match this round was for, but the use of the orange primer sealant undoubtedly indicates a special loading.
 
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