M1A "slam fire" with .308 Winchestor

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Old School

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I just purchased my first M1A. In the manual it says that commercial .308 winchester ammo should not be used because the primers are too soft and could cause the gun to fire when the bolt slams closed even if the trigger is not pulled.

Any of you M14/M1A guys ever experienced this "slam fire" condition?
 
I'm guessing you're referring to the article that Springfield includes with new M1A's? :)

I haven't personally experienced a slamfire but I saw one 3 lanes down from me. The guy was shooting federal american eagle and single feeding. (letting the bolt fly forward). I think the risk is greatly diminished if you feed from the magazine but that advice is worth every penny you paid for it. (Plus . . .this IS Internet Advice. :) )

Have a good one,
Dave
 
The manual absolutely does not say that.

.308 is fine. I don't shoot anything over 150 grains through mine. Less impact on the operating rod that way.

In any case, don't chamber the same round over and over. Always load from the magazine.
 
My goodness For Freedom.
"Absolutely"? really?]
You can download the latest manual at this address
http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?clicktype=rifles
page 4 list number 3

"The M1A is designed and built to specifications to shoot standard factory military 7.62 NATO ammunition. The
specifications for standard military ammunition include harder primers to withstand the slight indentation from the
firing pin when the bolt chambers a cartridge. This slight indentation is normal. The use of civilian ammunition
with more sensitive primers or handloads with commercial primers and/or improperly seated primers increase the
risk of primer detonation when the bolt slams forward. This unexpected "slam fire" can occur even if the trigger
is not being pulled and if the safety is on. Use of military specification ammunition will help avoid this."
 
It is CYA from Springfield.
IF the receiver bridge is correctly formed during the,in their case, casting and machining of the receiver then there will not remain enough inertial force left in the firing pin to free travel with enough force to detonate one of those oh so soft commercial primers as the cartridge fully chambers.
There are Military surplus rounds on the market that I am sure have softer/thinner primers than most commercial US made ammunition.

In my own Springfield M1A rifles I have shot a large amount of commercial Winchester 150 Power Soft Point and 165 Ballistic Silvertip cartridges and as much or more Federal commercial 168 Match ammunition without any problems.
Would I recommend you do the same with your rifle?
No, because I am not the manufacturer.
 
I don't see "winchester" commercial mentioned anywhere in that PDF. (Even used the search feature). My experience has been that winchester rifle primers are harder than federal but not as hard as mil-spec.

Regards,
Dave
 
It can happend- I always reload semi-auto 308 and 30-06 with CCI34 Harder primers. and also, i dont forget to make a good crimp on them.

my guess is that surplus ammo would be better...

if you only have civilian .308 and fear a slam fire, you still can load rounds one by one.
 
dmftoy1, I was not refering specifically to Winchester brand manufacture ammo. I was refering to the cartridge designation of .308 Winchester (the commercial nomenclature) as opposed to the military cartridge designation of 7.62 NATO
 
Gotcha! I misread what you said.

My .02 is that you're fine with commerical ammo in the appropriate bullet weights as long as you're shooting it out of the magazine. If you're worried about it then you can pick up some of the Lithuanian surplus from ammoman.com.. that's the best deal I've seen since the SA went through the roof.
 
IF the receiver bridge is correctly formed during the,in their case, casting and machining of the receiver then there will not remain enough inertial force left in the firing pin to free travel with enough force to detonate one of those oh so soft commercial primers as the cartridge fully chambers

The assumption is that the receiver bridge works as advertized. It does not. There have been enough slamfires in GI Garands with military ammunition to show that.


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=264020


“While the M1 and M14/M1A do have the "web", slam fires are still possible and can be catastrophic. I was lucky enough to come through one with a GI Springfield M1 from the DCM about 20 years ago using LC 69 issue ammo. The rifle held together for the most part, but did fire out of battery on loading a single round in slow fire. If it had been in a rapid fire string, I most likely would not be typing this right now. The rear of the receiver from just aft of the serial number was blown off and the stock cracked with a big chunk blown out of it. The bolt was jammed into the back of the receiver and would not come forward. The op rod handle ripped the palm of my hand open, and you could read the head stamp of the case in reverse on my palm. The recovered empty case was about an inch long. Never did find the rear of the receiver. The DCM took the rifle back and never did tell me what they determined went wrong. They replaced it with a brand new, and I mean, brand new, never issued H&R.

If you shoot either the M1 or M14, I would highly suggest you either use a SLED with the M1 or load single rounds from the mag on the M1A. Reloads should use the harder primers, like CCI, and I check mine with a seating gage. ”



http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=518103&f=2511043&m=348101466&r=615101566

“In the summer of 1968 or 69 the Atlantic Fleet Rifle Matches were plagued with slamfires using .308 Match ammo. Seems a terrible long time ago, and I still get upset about it because I lost my best and only chance to leg out on that cartridge. I was in the first relay at 500 yards (not 600 because the Annapolis range only went out to 500), and someone else popped off the first slamfire and dumped a bullet into Chesapeake Bay. I think I was the second or third to do so, and dropped my score from winner to first leather. The range officer did not allow a refire for any of us in first relay. By the second relay, the ammo malfunction was quite evident, and refires were given, but nothing was done for those of us in first relay. Slamfires popped all afternoon, was not a pretty sight. On examination, and believe me everyone was looking at ammo that day, the decision was a batch of overly sensitive primers. I guarantee, a slamfire can run your entire day!!!”
 
Keep too much oil away form the firing pin, and load rounds from the magazine and you should be fine. Don't drop a round into the chamber and let the bolt fly.

If you are really worried about it, use milsurp, or handloads with CCI #34 primers.

Every slam fire I have seen has been too much oil or grease in the bolt. It does happen.
 
I have been shooting my M1A regularly at the range and at matches for the last ten years. I have several rifle team budies in the same boat. I have fired thousands of rounds of commercial rounds as well as my own reloads with commercial primers. I have never had, witnessed or even herd claims of a "slam fire". I think that this has become an issue because it is "mechanically" plausible and the word "liability" popped up in some board meeting.
 
I had a slamfire with reloaded ammo, I felt pretty stupid!! I had reloaded some ammo and I was "checking" to see if they chambered properly. The safety was on my hand no where near the trigger. I released the operating rod, and the next thing I know I have a hole in the carpet. Wow, can you imagine my surprise. Once was enough for me to learn that lesson!! Later on when I became more internet aware I found out about soft primers. Having said that commercially loaded ammo has not given me problems. I think the Overall length of the cartridge was off on the ones I had loaded.
 
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Old School, the manual doesn't say not to use .308 Winchester.

Sorry if I sounded like a jerk though.:)
 
I have been shooting my M1A regularly at the range and at matches for the last ten years. I have several rifle team budies in the same boat. I have fired thousands of rounds of commercial rounds as well as my own reloads with commercial primers. I have never had, witnessed or even herd claims of a "slam fire". I think that this has become an issue because it is "mechanically" plausible and the word "liability" popped up in some board meeting.


I regularly drag out “the stick” and shoot it, and shoot a Garand in competition a couple of times per year. I am on the third match barrel of one of my M1a’s. Shot it last weekend in a reduced match.

Early on in my shooting career I had a severe slamfire in 30-06 with a garand. This was in the middle 80’s and I was firing the round sitting rapid fire, and the round was the last round from the eight round clip. The bolt had partial engagement. I lost the elevation knob, split the stock, and I would have had brass particles in my eye if my glasses had not protected me. The round was a reload, the gunsmith told me my rounds were not sized enough, and the primer was Federal.

That was when I learned from Gene Barnett, the barrel maker, that ammunition had to be sized smaller than the chamber. I purchased from him reamer cut cartridge headspace gages and used them. Along with Wilson cartridge headspace gages.

While I always feed from the chamber, I had another 30-06 slamfire with Federal primed ammunition in the standing slowfire phase. The round was fed from the SLED, the round went over the birm. Because the lugs were engaged nothing happened. I figured it was something I did.

My last slamfire in 30-06 was with brass sized in a Bonanza match die. This brass was once fired LC 60’s vintage match. I reamed all the pockets to depth and had primed them with Federal primers. When I gaged the loaded cases, the cartridges were only a little long: only an amount equal to the rim thickness would not fully go into the Barnett gage. So I thought I was safe, after all the conventional wisdom was that only “high primers” caused slamfires. In a new match Garand, firing from an eight round clip, one of these rounds slamfired out of battery and blew the back end off my receiver. My glasses were shattered and the blown out heel of the receiver cut my eye socket.

That is when I learned, absolutely, positively, that conventional wisdom is 100% bunk.

The Garand firing pin is almost a half inch longer than the M1a firing pin. Being heavier it is more likely to slamfire than a M1a mechanism.

I have talked a lot about this with fellow shooters. A surprising number who would not have broached the subject unless I mentioned slamfires. People do not like to volunteer information on accidents they have had. However, I met with three shooters who experienced catastrophic slamfires. Two of these were with Garands and one with with a M1a.

The M1a shooter was imitating a slow fire technic he had seen at Camp Perry. Some competitors were slightly unlatching their magazines during the long range phase, placing a round in the chamber, and dropping the bolt on the cartridge in the chamber. His rifle slamfired and his receiver had to be replaced. He was using Federal primers. He stated that he got more careful about how he reloaded ammunition after that.

One gentleman had a Garand rebarreled to a match 308. His rifle slamfired out of battery with Federal primers.

Within the last couple of years, a shooter I know had a Wilson match barrel installed on a Garand receiver. He wanted a Garand Match legal rifle. He was given a standard sizing die, used that, and used Federal primers. His rifle slamfired out of battery and blew the back off his receiver. His comment to me was “people ought to know how dangerous those rifles are to reload for.”


I have been on the line at Camp Perry, during the Garand match, when the CMP issued, Federal made ammunition, slamfired in somone’s rifle. A nearby bud told me more. It was during the Slow Fire standing stage, on the load command. The unfortunate had his safety on, placed a round in the chamber, dropped the bolt, and the rifle slamfired in battery. I heard it, everyone heard it.

I guess you were not there.

Just because you have not experienced or seen something, and your friends have not seen or experienced something, does not mean it does not happen.

You really have to be more careful reloading with Garands and M1a’s than any other rifle out there.

You can find proper reloading advice all over this forum, if you look.
 
SlamFire1 has it right.
RELOADED ammunition is a way bigger issue in regards to out of battery discharge than firing new commercial loaded ammunition.

The culprit is almost always a high seated primer.

If you stick with new commercial loads in the 150 grain to 165 grain range of loadings and avoid anything with magnum, high performance, etc., on the packaging, your chances of actually incurring a slamfire or a catastrophic failure are very, very slim.

Again, if the receiver bridge is in specification and the ammunition is correctly loaded, the possibility of a slamfire is very, very slim.
 
Other than a dirty chamber, a broken firing pin or a pin that is no longer free floating for whatever reason, IMHO, ammo is probably the number one cause of slam fires in the Garands & M14's. A high primer or anything that can cause the round to "stop short" of full chambering can result in the firing pin hitting the primer with sufficient force to set it off. If this occurs before the bolt is in battery, it can be disastrous!

Soft primers can contribute to a slam fire. The CCI #34 & #41 military primers have a hard cup to duplicate GI ammo, most of which is loaded with a hard primer. Handloaders must be aware of two other factors that can result in slam fires.

First, make it a practice to run your thumb over the primer as each round is removed from the press to be sure that the primer is fully seated.

Secondly, each cartridge must be sized sufficiently to fit your rifle's chamber giving proper headspace clearance. I would not load for any "gas gun" without using a cartridge case gauge. Best practice is to run each case through the case gauge at the time the loaded round comes off the press after determining the actual headspace required for your rifle; remember, all rifle chambers are not created equally. At the very least, spot check every few rounds in a given lot of reloads (for this to be acceptable, one must keep all brass in lots that have been fired the same number of times).

I had a friend who is a very experienced highpower competitor and reloader; he wrecked his match grade M1 Garand using the same handloads he has used for years when the rifle slam fired out of battery. Bent his op-rod, blew extractor/ejector out of bolt and rounded the receiver locking lug recess about 1/8" showing the bolt lug (thankfully) had barely entered the recess and was not in battery at the time the slamfire occured. He received a cut on the forehead and had somewhat of a problem with his trigger control for a while thereafter. Fortunately, the rifle, and his shooting ability have since been restored.

Upon examination of the remaining lot of ammo, we found that the rounds did not have sufficient headspace (clearance) in his snug chamber. He had loaded this batch of ammo using the same (full length)die setting as always. Remember, all previous lots had measured OK. The problem stemmed from the fact that this particular lot of brass had been fired at least 8 times and had work hardened; his dies had been set to give proper headspace with once fired brass and he failed to check headspace on this lot after loading. The harder brass springs back more than softer brass after sizing which resulted in oversized (for his chamber)rounds.

Hopefully, this information may help someone else avoid this pitfall.

Regards,
hps
 
Trying to help -

When I got a Springfield Armory M1 (Genesco, not WWII), I downloaded the owner's manual and got a little shook when I read about slam-fires.

Further research showed the difference between a true out-of-battery slam-fire and trigger troubles, sometimes called "doubling".

What I read was about bridge dimensions and a special gauge for determining if the bridge was "in spec". Also a careful check of the firing pin tail, and replace the firing pin if it was worn.

So, I didn't have the gauge. I had an Australian cast receiver and apparently good condition GI parts assembled into a rifle by a plant in Illinois.

I made up some rounds with primer only and proceeded with some testing. Not testing feeding, which was reliable, but checking for primer indentations following single loading to chamber and slaming the bolt home.

I got some barely visible marks. Not what would be called a firing pin strike.

I checked primer seating depth and, after adjustments, got rid of the marks. Apparently my firing pin and receiver bridge are to spec, though the receiver is a reproduction.

I am still shooting this Garand, using new Winchester brass and Winchester primers. I use a case headspace gauge and check primer seating depth. Several thousand rounds later, no trouble. Every once in a while, I strip the action and check the firing pin tail and the receiver bridge.

What's the point? Well, I think I'm OK with my present practice. I learned a lot about the Garand by studying this. Will this work for everyone? Probably not. Your receiver bridge or firing pin (or both) may be out of spec.

In addition to considering CCI#34 primers, I think I'd worry about the original design, too. If it isn't working, it should be repaired. Sometimes it just takes a new firing pin (I've read), but in extreme cases it can mean replacing the receiver.
 
I've never seen an M14 or M1A slam fire on a "commercial" primer if the round is first snapped into the magazine before releasing the bolt handle. I would estimate that I have witnessed about 50,000 possible instances of this technique.

I've for sure seen two M1 Garand rifles slam-fire on handloads where the user tossed the round in the chamber, and then allowed the bolt to "slingshot" slam on the round. One fella got his hand toasted real good when the round cut loose out-of-battery.

There were a couple other instances where I "think" it happened, but the circumstances were not such that it was necessary to investigate the "incident."

And I haven't even seen that many Garands on handloads.

You can avoid these incidents with greater certainty by "easing" the charging handle to about the halfway point before you let the spring take over.
 
slamfire1 says: "Just because you have not experienced or seen something, and your friends have not seen or experienced something, does not mean it does not happen."

Hey slamfire1, this sentence reminds of something a CFO I used to work with said to a wayward department manager who was compaining about the burden of following procedures. The department manager's arguement was that he never takes the time to do the extra steps of the procedure and nothing bad has happened yet. So, why should he waste his time? The CFO answered: "I have never been thrown through the windshield of a car either, but I still wear my seat belt".
 
Never seen one in my M1A's but I have to say I am very aware of the possiblity.

I load with small base dies. C-34 primers and feel each primer to make sure it is seated fully. No high primers for me.

Also every round is fed from the mag.
 
The top quote in SlamFire1's post #10 was me. Slam fires while not that common, do occur and can be a very violent event when they do. Not all of them are, and some may mistake the slamfire for a double. Your recovered brass will tell you otherwise, so pay attention, your gun is telling you something important and it may be a LOT more forceful the next time if your not listening.

While its more an issue with the Garand, dont throw a round in the chamber of either and let the bolt fly, your just asking for trouble. Use a SLED in the Garand and load from the mag with the M1A/M14. If you absolutely have to (dont know why you would, but some people are stubborn or cheap, maybe both :) ) load a round in the chamber, lower the bolt until closed and seat it with the heel of your hand.


I've shot a bunch of commercial ammo, and commercial brass (I wont reload military brass) loaded with most brands of commercial primers, and never had any problems with them. I do mike the primmer of every round when I load them. I dont use military brass for a couple of reasons. First, its a PITA to deal with and requires more work than its worth. You often need small based dies. You need to ream or swage the primer pockets, which adds to the primer issues. The brass is short lived and you get about half the reloads you do from commercial brass. The only brass I've ever got cases stuck in the die, was with military brass. Commercial is much better stuff to work with.
 
Originally posted by AK103K
I've shot a bunch of commercial ammo, and commercial brass (I wont reload military brass) loaded with most brands of commercial primers, and never had any problems with them. I do mike the primmer of every round when I load them. I dont use military brass for a couple of reasons. First, its a PITA to deal with and requires more work than its worth. You often need small based dies. You need to ream or swage the primer pockets, which adds to the primer issues. The brass is short lived and you get about half the reloads you do from commercial brass. The only brass I've ever got cases stuck in the die, was with military brass. Commercial is much better stuff to work with.

I've used military brass to reload for the M1 Garand for my entire reloading life (starting in 1964) and I've never had problems...

And I use a standard FL die set (usually RCBS), not a SB die set...

And, until recently, I always used CCI200 primers (I now use CCI #34 primers. Never let it be said that an old dog can't learn new tricks).

Use the correct technique (let the rifle strip the round from the clip (or, with the M1A, from the magazine)), keep the primer seated appropriately far below the cartridge base, and you're unlikely to have any problems...

Forrest
 
Have also fired thousands of rounds personally and have witnessed other do the same and have not seen a slamfire. Check the primer height and load from the magazine as apposed to sliding the cartridge into the chamber and letting the bolt slam closed.
Good luck
 
I've used military brass to reload for the M1 Garand for my entire reloading life (starting in 1964) and I've never had problems...
I know a lot of people who use it and swear by it, I just never had good luck with or the patience for it. I've reloaded my share of the GI brass too, and I dont miss using it at all.

Besides the extra work, longevity was the biggest issue. I usually never got more than 5 or 6 reloads from it. Commercial on the other hand, will easily go 10 or more, if the case mouths last that long, but a lot of that depends on where you shoot and what the case lands on or hits on the way down. I lose more commercial brass to case mouth damage than I do to case head failure.

I dont believe the military brass was really ever meant to be reloaded. Its heavier and thicker than commercial, and you can feel the difference when you run it up into the die.

Hey if your using it and have good results, by all means, stay with it. If you havent tried the commercial stuff, give it a shot. I'll bet you dont go back once you see the difference.
 
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