M2 Ball Yaw?

[jmorris]

Any known gel test or military testing?

Probably need to look at old records. The Hague Conventions took out the FMJ's competition in 1864.

• (IV,3): Declaration concerning the Prohibition of the Use of Bullets which can Easily Expand or Change their Form inside the Human Body such as Bullets with a Hard Covering which does not Completely Cover the Core, or containing Indentations

Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Kind of tells me all I want to know, as far as using them for hunting...

 

[toledo]

First, thanks for everyones thoughts.

I know dont use FMJs for hunting is the easy answer but the fact is some of them perform extremely well. Ive wrecked some really dense boars with fast tumbling 762x39 FMJs. And they dont even come apart. Enter, penetrate a few inches, tumble hard, and exit. They never go more than 20-30 yards.

The hunt is more of a sweep up on the population than a trophy hunt so was wanting something semiauto. They are in competition with the whitetails where we're hunting and need to be thinned. Hunting will either be from a 20 yard bow blind or 80 yard rifle stand. The garand seemed like a really cool way to go about it. Taking a precision deer rifle just seemed a little boring. The up side is I put the rifle on paper yesterday and was very happy with the results. I shot three 4 shot groups with PRVI garand ammo at 80 yards. All three groups were under 3" which tells me the gun is shooting better than what my eyes could focus on. Sighting in was easy as well. It appeared 1 click is obviously 1" at 100? Impressively easy to get dialed in for a WWII era rifle.

I dont have time to get the adjustable gas parts for this weekend and I'm still up in the air about shooting full power loads in a gun that deserves full respect.

With all that said, Im strongly considering just pivoting to my Ruger deerstalker in 44 mag.

 

[Rodfac]

Don't use FMJs for hunting . . .

Plus one....illegal in most if not all US states.

 

[hps1]

If you are a reloader, you can load soft point or hollow point bullets to the same levels as FMJ bullets for your Garand., They will work well on game and not be detrimental to your rifle.

With today's powders, factory 30-06 ammunition is loaded to get higher velocities as in the past due to improvements in the powder. With a gas limiting plug in the Garand, you can use safely use your Garand. Using good hunting bullets with powders designed for the Garand (IMR4895, H4895, Varget, and some others in this range).

There are some devices on the market that control the pressures in the gas system of the Garand such as the Shuster(sp?) plug.

Garands have good, safe actions, but the gas system is the weak limit and not capable of handling pressures developed for modern 30-06 ammunition.

Enjoy your hunt with your Garand but prepared for it with care to protect her with care.

M2 Ball w/150 gr FMJ bullet was the standard issue for use in Garand. M72 Match ammo w/172 gr FMJ bullet was loaded for and issued to AMU's in M1 Garands using appropriate powders to keep port pressures within optimal range back in the day. There was also AP M2 ammo issued for the Garand, bullet weight 165 gr. IIRC but I have no experience with that round.

Some consider the warning against factory ammo to be an old wives tale, but heavier bullets are normally loaded w/slower powders which produce higher port pressures than those faster powders used for lighter bullets (any caliber). Breech pressure is not the concern for the M1, but port pressure. Personally, I will not shoot factory in my Garand, but I don't normally shoot factory in my bolt guns either, for that matter.

For 150 gr to 165 gr bullets, 47 grains of H4895 pretty well duplicates M2 Ball ammo, both at the breech and at the port; at least that's what most of the service rifle competitors loaded. Another solution, for the handloader wishing to hunt with his Garand and who has some M2 Ball ammo, is to pull the FMJ bullet, resize case neck and seat the 150 gr. hunting bullet of your choice, producing an M2 hunting round perfectly safe for use in your Garand.

 

[Varminterror]

Plus one....illegal in most if not all US states.

The "all" part of this is incorrect. The "most" part is really only true because it IS illegal to hunt with FMJ's in some states, and "most" states don't have hogs to be hunted.

 

[Varminterror]

There are certainly worse ideas out there than using a Garand with M2 ball for Audad, but this certainly isn't on any list of GOOD ideas. Regardless of military tests, gel blocks, you really have to just be disregarding any respect for the game you're hunting (as we admittedly often do with nuisance animals like coyotes and hogs), and just looking to punch holes and kill stuff. It wouldn't be anything in which I'd willingly participate. Sure, I can get on board with a little whimsy and hunting with a Garand - not my first or 50th choice, but at least I can kinda get it... But the M2 Ball wouldn't be anything I'd touch.

 

[luv2safari]

M2 ain't the right tool for this task. The animal deserves better.

Short and to the "point".

 

[Jeremy2171]

You cannot shoot any commercially loaded ammo in a garand as you will bend the op rod as it has a different pressure curve than the military ball ammo it was designed to shoot. Either reload a hunting style projectile to military ball ammo specs or buy an adjustable gas plug.

Please stop spreading misinformation

 

[Jeremy2171]

If you are a reloader, you can load soft point or hollow point bullets to the same levels as FMJ bullets for your Garand., They will work well on game and not be detrimental to your rifle.

With today's powders, factory 30-06 ammunition is loaded to get higher velocities as in the past due to improvements in the powder. With a gas limiting plug in the Garand, you can use safely use your Garand. Using good hunting bullets with powders designed for the Garand (IMR4895, H4895, Varget, and some others in this range).

There are some devices on the market that control the pressures in the gas system of the Garand such as the Shuster(sp?) plug.

Garands have good, safe actions, but the gas system is the weak limit and not capable of handling pressures developed for modern 30-06 ammunition.

Enjoy your hunt with your Garand but prepared for it with care to protect her with care.

"Modern" ammo operates at the same pressures as milsurp ammo.


This myth needs to die

 

[horsey300]

First, thanks for everyones thoughts.

I know dont use FMJs for hunting is the RIGHT ANSWER....

With all that said, Im strongly considering just pivoting to my Ruger deerstalker in 44 mag.

Fixed it for you. 44 mag carbine wouldn't be my first choice, but I'd take it in a heartbeat over your given alternative!! I don't live where there are hogs, but here, the only live targets that get an fmj are prairie dogs (prefer varmint loads) and coyotes (prefer varmint loads or deer loads over fmj still). I won't get preachy about ethics, but I'll say that I've helped recover too many game animals shot by fmj users that didn't know better to even consider not speaking against it. You're giving up precision and effective wounding capabilities with fmjs over quality hunting loads, this isn't about an easy answer, the easy answer is do what you want cuz 'merica, the responsible answer is leave the fmjs at home.

 

[nettlle]

If you use a M2 and don't tell anyone you shot the ram or boar with a M2 they will be just as dead as with any other gun. If you shoot ammo that's too hot there is a possibility of bending the operating rod. Schuster makes a vented and bored gas plug that reduces operating pressure to the operating rod by 2600 PSI. You can buy or reload hunting ammunition. The Schuster plugs can be a little hard to find.

Schuster Vented Bored Gas Plug Cleaning Tools M1A Steel Parkerized

This plug is vented and bored to 58% greater volume. Greater volume and venting produces 2600 psi less pressure on the Op-Rod. This modification is...

www.midwayusa.com

 

[Jeremy2171]

If you use a M2 and don't tell anyone you shot the ram or boar with a M2 they will be just as dead as with any other gun. If you shoot ammo that's too hot there is a possibility of bending the operating rod. Schuster makes a vented and bored gas plug that reduces operating pressure to the operating rod by 2600 PSI. You can buy or reload hunting ammunition. The Schuster plugs can be a little hard to find.

Schuster Vented Bored Gas Plug Cleaning Tools M1A Steel Parkerized

This plug is vented and bored to 58% greater volume. Greater volume and venting produces 2600 psi less pressure on the Op-Rod. This modification is...

www.midwayusa.com

What ammo is "too hot"?

You aren't going to bend the oprod with store bought ammo.

Dubious claim it reduces pressure by 2600psi as the port pressure is different with every load.

Besides that's for an M14 not an M1. M-1s are less sensitive to port pressure than M14s are.

 

[Com 45acp]

Please stop spreading misinformation

Because we come from two different schools of thought, does not make me a product of spreading misinformation!

 

[tactikel]

Idea tried 70 years ago, after the war (WWII) there were rail cars of surplus .30-06 ball ammo priced to sell. It was quickly apparent that fmj was a poor choice for big game, many well hit animals lost. Most states dnrs banned fmj.

 

[Jeremy2171]

Because we come from two different schools of thought, does not make me a product of spreading misinformation!

If your comments are based on opinion while ignoring facts...then yes...it's misinformation.

Your comment overall is pure opinion...no facts in it at all.

 

[Com 45acp]

I’ve seen it first hand. A family friend was shooting factory ammo (nothing over 168 grain) through his garand and bent the op rod. Misinformation? Okay then.

 

[nettlle]

The Garand op rod isn't as strong as a M1A op rod. Still one has to be careful about running full house loads through a M1A. Some folks say they can run anything through their M1's and M1A's with no problem. Others say they bent their op rod unless using reduced loads. Op rods aren't cheap. The Schuster Gas Plug gives me a little insurance so I can reload what i want.

 

[Jeremy2171]

I’ve seen it first hand. A family friend was shooting factory ammo (nothing over 168 grain) through his garand and bent the op rod. Misinformation? Okay then.

just like that...the oprod bent...

What ammo was it?

I'm betting it was something else. Because commercial ammo operates at the same pressures as milsurp.

 

[Jeremy2171]

Others say they bent their op rod unless using reduced loads. Op rods aren't cheap.

Never seen an oprod bent "from commercial ammo". Still waiting on someone to produce one and the ammo that caused in a properly working garand.

The Schuster Gas Plug gives me a little insurance so I can reload what i want.

What is it you are handloading that you think you need it?

 

[Jim Watson]

I like the Mexican Match approach; pull a FMJ, seat a JSP of the same weight.

A friend gave me a box of 173 gr boattail military match bullets with pull marks. I don't know what his Uncle replaced them with, probably 168 maybe 180.

I have pulled 55 gr FMJ from foreign surplus M193 and replaced with a 52 gr BTHP. They shoot better than ball but not up to a good handload.

 

[jmorris]

The hunt is more of a sweep up on the population than a trophy hunt so was wanting something semiauto. They are in competition with the whitetails where we're hunting and need to be thinned.

Trap, instead of getting a couple, you get all of them. If you've got a big pig problem hunting isn't the solution in most cases. We didn't even put a dent in them until I built remote controlled traps.

New sounders kept pouring into this one until the ground was just blood soaked dirt




I have probably killed them ~ 50:1 trap vs hunting.

 

[hps1]

I like the Mexican Match approach; pull a FMJ, seat a JSP of the same weight.

A friend gave me a box of 173 gr boattail military match bullets with pull marks. I don't know what his Uncle replaced them with, probably 168 maybe 180.

I have pulled 55 gr FMJ from foreign surplus M193 and replaced with a 52 gr BTHP. They shoot better than ball but not up to a good handload.

Have shot a lot of 150's over M2 ball in club matches. Re-packaged M2 w/168 SMK's and M72/180's back in the day for larger matches in bolt guns w/near handload performance.

 

[W.E.G.]

Thinking of taking my garand on an audad hunt. Im finding very little info online about the terminal performance of m2 ball. Should I be able to expect this projectile to yaw inside a large animal like a 300lb ram or big boar? Any known gel test or military testing?

Question asks about shooting "audad."

That's a sheep isn't it?
Found in the Rocky Mountains.

You're gonna hunt mountain sheep with a Garand?
Iron sights?
Heavy trigger.
Ball ammo?

If you have the opportunity for a sheep hunt, I'd recommend a different rifle just from the standpoint of weight of the gun and weight of the trigger.

M2 ball through a sheep is probably not gonna yaw much.
Definitely will kill sheep.

The way people fuss about "don't use FMJ for hunting" is over-emphasized to the point of being hysterical on the internet.
A .30 caliber that blows all the way through an animal is gonna kill it. And fast.
But if I'm going to all the trouble to go mountain-climbing, I'm probably gonna use a rifle that weighs less, and that has a lighter trigger, and with some sort of Gucci ammo. Mainly just so I don't have to listen to people lecturing about not using FMJ. Good shot placement with M2 ball 30-06 ammo kills everything. Real fast. Doesn't matter whether the bullet goes straight-through, or sideways, or bass-ackwards. Any flavor of 30-06 is devastating on animate objects.

FWIW, I once shot a 90# deer RIGHT THROUGH THE HEART with a Remington Core-Lokt 150-grain 30-06.
Right at dusk.
Close range - about 40 yards.
That little deer still ran off far enough that I could not find it before it got too dark too track. Which was about 10 minutes after I shot it.
I'm not sure where it started spewing blood. It defintely didn't start leaving a blood trail at the exact spot I shot it.
Had to come back in the morning to get the carcass.
In the sunshine the next morning I found a really big blood trail that led me to the carcass.
But that little deer ran a good 50 yards through brush before it died.
Expanding bullet didn't do anything magic. Just made a hole in the heart for the blood to run out.
Entry hole was .30 caliber. Exit hole wasn't a whole lot bigger.
But definitely let all the blood out.
A non-expanding bullet would have had the same effect.

 

[W.E.G.]

As far as feral pigs go, shoot them with anything that won't bounce off their heads.

People kill pigs with .223 FMJ all the time.

Don't expect an exit wound with .223 FMJ. Those bullets tend to blow up about 2 inches in.

I don't know if anyone tracks feral pigs if they run off after they're shot. Nuisance species. The surviving pigs will eat a dead pig.

Pretty sure the trappers are killing them in the trap with .22 rimfire usually.

 

[hps1]

You're gonna hunt mountain sheep with a Garand?
Iron sights?
Heavy trigger.
Ball ammo?

If you have the opportunity for a sheep hunt, I'd recommend a different rifle just from the standpoint of weight of the gun and weight of the trigger.

Good questions, iron sights, heavy rifle and ball ammo not a good choice, but a good armorer can tune the M1 trigger down to a very nice, crisp 3.5# or so. I have one traded to me by an army AMU armorer who guaranteed it would not double.....it never has. The minimum legal for match shooting is 4.5#.

Will ball ammo kill a goat or deer? Absolutely, however, most likely not as quickly/humanely as a good hunting bullet. Is there a better choice? Absolutely. The FMJ will most likely pencil through the animal, leaving a small exit wound, thus a much weaker (and longer) blood trail than a bullet which expands properly.