1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Days of Yore
sm...I miss those days. *sigh*
sm...I miss those days. *sigh*
Magazine Observations
- Thread starter 1911Tuner
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I own a 7 year old Colt that was very reliable at least up until 30,000 rounds.
One of those "production guns" that made you wonder what all the fuss is about 1911s...again up until a higher round count.
Not being a manufacturing guy, I guess my question would be, since "they" can build reliable 1911s at production retails, what would it cost to insure the quality control on a repeatable basis? If the answer is "semi-custom" "standards" of production then the 1911 market would probably decrease by 80-90%. Assuming 1911 customers wouldn't buy a less quality 1911...! They do, of course, but just for discussions sake.
The Baer couldn't be more reliable than the Colt I have, but I would expect it to be much more durable, accurate, etc for double the price. Take Baer out of the market and you are close to the $2,000 range for other "semi-custom 1911s...minimum.
What do they do to provide a reliable 1911 out of the box in a consistent fashion in that $700-$800 range?
One of those "production guns" that made you wonder what all the fuss is about 1911s...again up until a higher round count.
Not being a manufacturing guy, I guess my question would be, since "they" can build reliable 1911s at production retails, what would it cost to insure the quality control on a repeatable basis? If the answer is "semi-custom" "standards" of production then the 1911 market would probably decrease by 80-90%. Assuming 1911 customers wouldn't buy a less quality 1911...! They do, of course, but just for discussions sake.
The Baer couldn't be more reliable than the Colt I have, but I would expect it to be much more durable, accurate, etc for double the price. Take Baer out of the market and you are close to the $2,000 range for other "semi-custom 1911s...minimum.
What do they do to provide a reliable 1911 out of the box in a consistent fashion in that $700-$800 range?
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Reliable
45Auto wrote:
>I own a 7 year old Colt that was very reliable at least up until 30,000 rounds.<
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What did the gun start doing after working for that long?
45Auto wrote:
>I own a 7 year old Colt that was very reliable at least up until 30,000 rounds.<
**********
What did the gun start doing after working for that long?
Hi Tuner,
The bottom barrel lug cracked, started to pull away from the chamber. You helped me with information on what to do awhile ago.
Also, the series 80 plunger jambed up, causing the FP to stick forward, case jamb which knocked off the slide stop "nub". Ha! Everything fixed and the gun is just as reliable, 10,000 rounds later. Same extractor by the way. Tensioned once in it's life... just for the heck of it.
I would expect a proper "handfit" barrel not to crack and therefore, higher cost.
But I suspect the 30,000 rounds would satisfy 95% of 1911(all handguns) owners...meaning they wouldn't shoot that many through one gun anyway.
The other Colt I have experienced barrel fit problems also, causing broken slidestops and a barrel link. This one was made in the mid to late 70's. I don't think that period was the "high point" for Colt judging from the fit. Problems started much earlier also, in the 10-15,000 range. "Reliable working/feeding" gun though!
Both "production fit" barrels.
The bottom barrel lug cracked, started to pull away from the chamber. You helped me with information on what to do awhile ago.
Also, the series 80 plunger jambed up, causing the FP to stick forward, case jamb which knocked off the slide stop "nub". Ha! Everything fixed and the gun is just as reliable, 10,000 rounds later. Same extractor by the way. Tensioned once in it's life... just for the heck of it.
I would expect a proper "handfit" barrel not to crack and therefore, higher cost.
But I suspect the 30,000 rounds would satisfy 95% of 1911(all handguns) owners...meaning they wouldn't shoot that many through one gun anyway.
The other Colt I have experienced barrel fit problems also, causing broken slidestops and a barrel link. This one was made in the mid to late 70's. I don't think that period was the "high point" for Colt judging from the fit. Problems started much earlier also, in the 10-15,000 range. "Reliable working/feeding" gun though!
Both "production fit" barrels.
RogersPrecision
Member
A box stock factory gun is one thing. One tuned by a competent 1911 smith is another.
In the case of the latter, the gun should run with ANY quality ammo fed via ANY quality magazines. Yes, this includes 8rd mags.
I'm not willing to sacrifice a 15% increase in ammo on board due to poor factory workmanship. Nor am I willing to limit myself or my customers to a specific brand/configuration of magazine.
I'm not trying to be contrary here. I highly value Tuner's skill and experience.
But..........there is more than one way to skin a cat!
In the case of the latter, the gun should run with ANY quality ammo fed via ANY quality magazines. Yes, this includes 8rd mags.
I'm not willing to sacrifice a 15% increase in ammo on board due to poor factory workmanship. Nor am I willing to limit myself or my customers to a specific brand/configuration of magazine.
I'm not trying to be contrary here. I highly value Tuner's skill and experience.
But..........there is more than one way to skin a cat!
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Cats
Raja wrote:
>there is more than one way to skin a cat!<
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'Course they is, but for them that ain't got the bucks or the time or a spare gun whilst the primary is bein' tweaked...it's a good alternative route.
Raja wrote:
>there is more than one way to skin a cat!<
**********
'Course they is, but for them that ain't got the bucks or the time or a spare gun whilst the primary is bein' tweaked...it's a good alternative route.
RogersPrecision
Member
Tuner, I agree whole heartedly!
Many of us need to work with what we have.
Plus.....truly competent 1911 wrenches are not available at WalMart.
Just thought I'd show a different way of looking at the issue.
Many of us need to work with what we have.
Plus.....truly competent 1911 wrenches are not available at WalMart.
Just thought I'd show a different way of looking at the issue.
sm
member
RogersPrecision,
I am not trying to be contrary either - really I'm not
There is difference in Quality and Name Brands. Just like there is a difference in "Smiths" and "parts changers".
We are on the same page.
I am not trying to be contrary either - really I'm not
There is difference in Quality and Name Brands. Just like there is a difference in "Smiths" and "parts changers".
We are on the same page.
Last edited:
ZBill
Member
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2004
- Messages
- 397
Tuner, I found a cigar box box of WWII mags...
today at a swap meet. I got four that look like they have never been instered in a pistol. (they were all in this condition). They are marked L,R or S on the top lip of the base and C-S and C-R on the bottom of the base of two.
From these pics can you confirm they are WWII originals? I look forward to trying them out for the reasons stated in your original post in this thread. Regards, Bill
today at a swap meet. I got four that look like they have never been instered in a pistol. (they were all in this condition). They are marked L,R or S on the top lip of the base and C-S and C-R on the bottom of the base of two.
From these pics can you confirm they are WWII originals? I look forward to trying them out for the reasons stated in your original post in this thread. Regards, Bill
Attachments
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
GI Mags
ZBill...They are. C-R is a Colt subcontract filled by Risdon Manufacturing Company in Naugatuck, Connecticut. C-S is from Scovill in Waterbury Connecticut. On the off-chance that they don't work out for you, I'll buy them all, if they're in decent shape. They may need fresh springs.
ZBill...They are. C-R is a Colt subcontract filled by Risdon Manufacturing Company in Naugatuck, Connecticut. C-S is from Scovill in Waterbury Connecticut. On the off-chance that they don't work out for you, I'll buy them all, if they're in decent shape. They may need fresh springs.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
GI Mags-2
Just noticed the L,R, or S part of the post.
L is a M.S. Little contract. C-L is an M.S. Little subcontract for Colt.
R is Risdon, with C-R a Risdon subcontract
S is a Scovill, and C-S is a Scovill subcontractor.
If the bottom is unmarked, Colt made it.
Just noticed the L,R, or S part of the post.
L is a M.S. Little contract. C-L is an M.S. Little subcontract for Colt.
R is Risdon, with C-R a Risdon subcontract
S is a Scovill, and C-S is a Scovill subcontractor.
If the bottom is unmarked, Colt made it.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
More for Me?
Outstanding! Let me know...
Outstanding! Let me know...
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Sniff
Quote:
>SNIFF) I don't get any...<
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Aw, quitcherbellyachin'. If it wasn't for you hoardin'em up for the last 30 years, there'd be a couple million on the open market.
Quote:
>SNIFF) I don't get any...<
**********
Aw, quitcherbellyachin'. If it wasn't for you hoardin'em up for the last 30 years, there'd be a couple million on the open market.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Missed Boats
Guess so jungle. That's a good thing, though. Leaves more of'em for me.
Guess so jungle. That's a good thing, though. Leaves more of'em for me.
Might want to let those boys up at Quantico know that you have the real answer and they are just chasing their tail. Uncle Sugar has a bunch of the old ones in the warehouse, but those silly gunsmiths up there just insist on something else.
Maybe they don't believe either.
Maybe they don't believe either.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Sugar
Wouldn't be the first time that Uncle made a bad call...
Wouldn't be the first time that Uncle made a bad call...
Don't forget that small Army group that shoots over a million rounds a year through their 1911s. It seems they made the same mistake and also use Wilsons. I guess none of them know much about magazine design. They do seem to know what works though.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
I've worked for a few different gun companies now.
Rule 0: Don't mess with the magazines!
Rule 0: Don't mess with the magazines!
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Army
The Army? OH! You mean the same folks who took it on themselves to change the powder in the M193 round from an extruded IMR powder to a ball powder with its high calcium content...without consulting with the designer of the weapon...thus creating heavier fouling of the gas systems and chambers, leading to several dead and wounded people in Vietnam in 1966 and 1967. The same people who stated in the field manuals that the M16 rifles were self-cleaning, and required only mimimal maintenance in the field?
Then...unable and unwilling to admit that they'd screwed the pooch, they took steps to correct the "problem" by retrofitting the rifles with chrome-lined chambers and ordering upper receivers with a forward assist...and cancelling orders for the bad old barrels and receivers and reordering the fine, new ones...and ordered the printing of little comic books instructing the troops on how to properly clean their weapons...all at a great cost to the taxpayers and to the men who died over their decision...and they did all of this because the bad, old ammunition would only average 3200 fps and they demanded 3250. That's right. Their vast knowledge and wisdom in weapons design cost a billion+ dollars...and got an untold number of people killed and wounded...because of 50_feet_per_second. Brilliant!
I have unquestioning faith and confidence in everything that the military think-tank comes up with. Yessir buddy!
Now...The point of this thread was not to convince anyone of anything. It was only a report on what I had observed several times over the years, and finally was able to offer two collaborating witnesses...which is now up to three, if you'd take the time to shoot'em a PM and ask. #3 goes by the username nc_gunguy.
The Army? OH! You mean the same folks who took it on themselves to change the powder in the M193 round from an extruded IMR powder to a ball powder with its high calcium content...without consulting with the designer of the weapon...thus creating heavier fouling of the gas systems and chambers, leading to several dead and wounded people in Vietnam in 1966 and 1967. The same people who stated in the field manuals that the M16 rifles were self-cleaning, and required only mimimal maintenance in the field?
Then...unable and unwilling to admit that they'd screwed the pooch, they took steps to correct the "problem" by retrofitting the rifles with chrome-lined chambers and ordering upper receivers with a forward assist...and cancelling orders for the bad old barrels and receivers and reordering the fine, new ones...and ordered the printing of little comic books instructing the troops on how to properly clean their weapons...all at a great cost to the taxpayers and to the men who died over their decision...and they did all of this because the bad, old ammunition would only average 3200 fps and they demanded 3250. That's right. Their vast knowledge and wisdom in weapons design cost a billion+ dollars...and got an untold number of people killed and wounded...because of 50_feet_per_second. Brilliant!
I have unquestioning faith and confidence in everything that the military think-tank comes up with. Yessir buddy!
Now...The point of this thread was not to convince anyone of anything. It was only a report on what I had observed several times over the years, and finally was able to offer two collaborating witnesses...which is now up to three, if you'd take the time to shoot'em a PM and ask. #3 goes by the username nc_gunguy.
It's nice to meet someone who never makes a mistake.
On the other hand, the collective wisdom of many highly experienced users both inside and outside the Military is hard to ignore.
Whatever works best is the rule, not a few anecdotal examples.
On the other hand, the collective wisdom of many highly experienced users both inside and outside the Military is hard to ignore.
Whatever works best is the rule, not a few anecdotal examples.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
re:
Everybody makes mistakes. Me...You...Everybody. But I think that if my decision had the lives of young men in a war zone hanging in the balance, that I'd at least consult with the designer of the weapon before making a critical change during the campaign, and listen carefully to what he had to say. (Actually, I believe that they did, and ignored Stoner's warnings...but that's another story.)
But it's not the first lethal blunder that they made with vital equipment.
Let's look at the Reising submachine gun. The little trick that they handed the Marines...largely unproven...for their Solomon hop war games. Now, there was a stroke of brilliance if there ever was one. Let's not even mention the wisdom of wooden decked aircraft carriers. Surely they had heard rumors of Japanese dive-bombers. Sheer genius.
Now, then...One...more...time.
This thread was started in order to report an occurrence...you may call it a phenomenon if you choose...that I've seen happen a number of times over the years. Not to try and convince anyone of anything. Just an observation, like the header says. I especially won't try to convince you, jungle mah fren...because you have your mind made up, and I've found that folks who have reached that pinnacle rarely have any meaningful learning experiences beyond that point.
I firmly agree with the wisdom that if the pistol is correctly built and tweaked, that it should function with any good-quality magazine. I've done it. I also know that some people don't have the wherewithal to ship and insure an entry-level pistol to a smith...both ways...and wait for 6-8 weeks to get their competently smithed gun back. It's nothing more than information and a suggestion to try a different magazine design to see if it'll work. You'd be surprised at how often it has worked...and still does, going on the last three that I've had my grimy little fingers in. Worked so well that two of the owners offered me a ridiculous amount of money for a few of my Scovills and General Shavers. But, I digress. The main point was...and is...
information that some may find helpful at some point. You seem to have a problem with that, and it's almost like you've taken it personally. My mention of your name was purely in jest.
Everybody makes mistakes. Me...You...Everybody. But I think that if my decision had the lives of young men in a war zone hanging in the balance, that I'd at least consult with the designer of the weapon before making a critical change during the campaign, and listen carefully to what he had to say. (Actually, I believe that they did, and ignored Stoner's warnings...but that's another story.)
But it's not the first lethal blunder that they made with vital equipment.
Let's look at the Reising submachine gun. The little trick that they handed the Marines...largely unproven...for their Solomon hop war games. Now, there was a stroke of brilliance if there ever was one. Let's not even mention the wisdom of wooden decked aircraft carriers. Surely they had heard rumors of Japanese dive-bombers. Sheer genius.
Now, then...One...more...time.
This thread was started in order to report an occurrence...you may call it a phenomenon if you choose...that I've seen happen a number of times over the years. Not to try and convince anyone of anything. Just an observation, like the header says. I especially won't try to convince you, jungle mah fren...because you have your mind made up, and I've found that folks who have reached that pinnacle rarely have any meaningful learning experiences beyond that point.
I firmly agree with the wisdom that if the pistol is correctly built and tweaked, that it should function with any good-quality magazine. I've done it. I also know that some people don't have the wherewithal to ship and insure an entry-level pistol to a smith...both ways...and wait for 6-8 weeks to get their competently smithed gun back. It's nothing more than information and a suggestion to try a different magazine design to see if it'll work. You'd be surprised at how often it has worked...and still does, going on the last three that I've had my grimy little fingers in. Worked so well that two of the owners offered me a ridiculous amount of money for a few of my Scovills and General Shavers. But, I digress. The main point was...and is...
information that some may find helpful at some point. You seem to have a problem with that, and it's almost like you've taken it personally. My mention of your name was purely in jest.
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