Magazine Observations

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Nothing personal at all, I just wanted to point out that your observations are valid, but they aren't in agreement with the observations of many others who also spend a lot of time with the 1911.
I understand your preference for the original design, and agree it works well most of the time.
I also understand one can make the same observation about more recent designs. It's obvious they work well with many users.

Many may not have the ability to find the original style mags. There are certainly plenty of bad copies.

Whatever you decide to use, make sure it works. What you believe in from a design standpoint becomes unimportant unless it works.
 
owen's post #47 rings true.

Observations:

-I have some o-l-d Wilson-Rogers mags for 1911. These were a gift or I won them, don't matter, these have worked, and IMO so much much better than the current Wilson Mag. Fact is, if I may be so blunt, I don't do anything Wilson anymore. It is not the same Wilson company it once was. Just my personal take, and I live in the same state as Wilson.

-1911s are "messed with" more than many other pistol designs. You never hear of anyone messing with a Sig 220, and fiddlin' with mags. Nobody messes with after market Glock Mags. Factory mags work, they were designed to do so. It is the after market or "can't stand to have something stock - gotta mess with it" bunch that messes up.

-There is hardly anything some man cannot make cheaper and sell for less. Those that buy based on price alone- are this man's prey. - John Ruskin

Meaning, folks wanted something for less, and they got it. Along with all the other headaches that come with it.

Folks taught mfgs how to treat them - "we will accept less quality for less money", and the mfgs, said "hey, we got by with this, let us see if we can get by with something else". And the folks bought into it.

-Marketing. I subscribe to the thinking of Trout & Ries on Marketing. The old fashioned way of doing things.
Today, Marketing is about getting your wallet. 90% of the fishing lures on the market are for catching fisher-person's wallets - not fish.

I find it very suspect, factory mags for all sorts of guns, for w-a-y too many years - work. I do not care if a old Beretta Minx, a Gov't Model of 1911 with USGI 7 rd mags, a Browning Vest Pocket .25 Auto, Ruger MkI's ... then add the new guns from Keltec P-11 (mags by MecGar) to Marlin .22 rifles - dang mags work.

MecGar. Just how many factory guns come with Mags made by MecGar, and they work everytime? Lots.

Metalform is another company that "has it right". On the 1911 mag - that one set up they have, as close to USGI with the dimple follower - works.

Now all these after-market mags, especially the 'gee whiz' factor ones with higher capacities and fuzzy dice hanging off them - don't work. If they do, not for long, and cannot be fixed most times if need.

Wallet flushes and Gee Whiz factors, just not my style.

Then again I still believe the hickory axe handle is better than these new composite ones, so what do I know?
 
Nuttin' Personal

Outstanding! I was afraid that it was about to go ballistic.:cool:

The problem is that many have a problem accepting that a man born in the middle of the 19th century knew more about his pistol than anyone alive today...and he did.

I was one of those who couldn't accept it for a time. Having had a few successful jaunts into design engineering...mostly tool design...some for me and some for others...I did my level best to make a few "improvements" on the pistol. Little things, mostly. I soon learned that the farther away I got, the nastier things became, and that the closer I returned to ol' John Moses'
parameters, the better it got. When I finally admitted defeat, I discovered that the 1911 pistol was probably the most reliable sidearm on the screen, bar none. (Yes...That includes Glocks, etc.) It didn't matter whether I used ball, hollowpoint, or SWC ammo either...which lays waste to the notion that they only function with ball unless they're extensively reworked. *harumph* Sheepdip.

It was also about the time that I figured out just how critical the magazine was...after a brief stint into creating a workable 8-round magazine that was as reliable as the old GIs were. Yep. I was all over that extra round as early as 1975. Full-length guide rods and fancy recoil systems and lightened hammers, too. They all worked...after a fashion...but they either failed to meet my requirements, or they didn't add anything other than gadgetry and extra work/frustration in maintaining the gun...so I gave in and gave up. JMB really did have the answer...at least for a "Heartbreaker and a Widowmaker" and those are really my only focus. I look at target pistols and "gamers" as not too far removed from toys. Love to shoot'em and play with'em, but wouldn't carry one on a bet.
 
1911 Tuner

Just read Tuner's screen name. He doesn't claim to be a gunsmith,he is a tuner or an armorer.
Unless some factory or Gunsmith (no name or big name) screwed the pooch,he can make one run as it should.
Most of the time he can make it run while sitting at the kitchen table,drinking Turbo Coffee,shooting the bull and using very little in the way of hand tools.(some of them homemade)
I know this to be a fact as he has done several for me and in each case has cured any problems I was cursed with.
One was an Officer's ACP that was reworked by a famous big name gunsmith and would never run as it should even after being sent back.
Tuner fixed it in less than an hour sitting at the table.
 
1911Tuner,

Magazines are just one example of the symptoms of the disease. 1911 pistol is another, K frame revolvers , yet another.

Part of this disease is just the way folks are, we are all unique, some like chocolate, others vanilla, yet someone else prefers strawberry. No problem, not a "Us vs Them" - just being human, we all have different tastes.

Another Part is also okay, that being taking the proven designs to further research and development's of new offerings for specific tasks. 2+2 is 4, proven, it is a standard, and used by Einstein in higher math applications for his work. Einstein did not try to re-invent 2+2 = 4, just took what worked to a higher level for what needed.

One part, I don't know what to call it. These folks just flat resent anything being as is. It does not matter how many flavors of ice cream - they are going to fuss. These don't want to accept 2+2=4 , they want to find fault with it, argue about it, get picky and say 2+2= 3.9999999999 to the nth degree. Most cannot share what they like - they can only share what they don't.

Growing up when and how I did attributes to a lot of my beliefs and preferences. Being poor, and not that many offerings, one got what fit them, learned its nuances and maintained it.

I paid $350 for my first car from my mechanic, his wife's car. Just an old Army mechanic, that went into his own independent shop. I drove that car for near 6 years, and sold it for $285.

I was was the guy that had a car that ran to take folks to parts stores for parts they needed, either fix something they messed up by fixing something not broke - or get the factory parts to go back into as designed.
I picked up folks broke down on the side of the road, I towed these cars, and I was kidded, chided , ribbed , made fun of...but my car worked, my guns worked, my stuff was not "hip, slick, or cool" - my stuff just worked.

I didn't know any better, poor, being hungry, and what I had, had better work, had better last, as I did not have money to fix stuff being stupid by breaking it.

.22 shells were .17 a box, and I got 2 cents a soda bottle turning them in. I did not learn to shoot by "spray and pray" , I learned on a .22 revolver shooting double action only. Soda bottles get to bringing 3 cents each and my ammo went up to 21 cents or something.

Six years old and I shoot my first center-fire pistol - Gov't Model of 1911. Gunny, was teaching me. He had BTDT and survived. I paid attention. In the years to come I would hear him, other Gunny's and Mentors share about real world things, and the bottom line -
Simple saves your bacon - Complicated gets folks killed.

Enhanced guns? Sure, I had Mentors that enhanced the 1911. One Gunny was on the Pistol team, another Mentor shot Bulls-Eye , and these guys and gals would NEVER carry that enhanced pistol for Combat use. Offensive, or Defensive reasons.

You don't do it !
Plain and simple, matter of fact, period, end of story.

"What is wrong with your gun?" I asked this nice Fellow in Uniform and his wife in nurses scrubs. He had a Colt .38 Super. He wondered why I asked, and I was telling him I thought he gun was not going to work with that ammo.
I had not seen this gun before, and to me, something wrong with his gun, since them .38 Supers fit into his mags.
It was not supposed to do that. His ammo was supposed to be fatter :p

I was good at being a Range Brat.

Steve
 
For Tuner, a favorite picture...

do you think the box is an original pistol shipping box?
 

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" Just read Tuner's screen name. He doesn't claim to be a gunsmith,he is a tuner or an armorer."

I think he's being modest. I don't think Tuner would have any problem "whippin" up a modern renditon if he was so inclined...in "short order".
The other "unimportant" stuff like reliability, barrel fitting, slide/frame fit, fitting of parts, triggers, repair, etc he already does under the "armorer" label. What's left to do? ;)

SM,
As an aside only, I also have two old, 15+ years, Wilsons that work very well through many rounds. And, hard to believe, haven't used a new Wilson. I take it they "changed" them in some form or fashion? On one forum, some "heavy" users really dislike Wilson mags and similiar to Tuner, recommend the CMC Power mag, if Tuner would recommend an 8 rounder ;).
Their first choice for long term durability is a 7 rounder.
 
Armorer

Not a gunsmith, and surely not a pistolsmith. Mainly just a troubleshooter and fixer of busted things. A little beyond the base definition of armorer, though. Guess you could say...a tuner. ;) (I was called "Tuner" a long time before Algore invented the internet.)

ZBill..I do believe it is an original box, and if it comes with the mags, I'd be plumb tickled to get it.:cool:
 
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Tuner...

the Post Office was open today after all, please see private messages. ZBill
 
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Seems to be a lot of nostalgia going on here.

Take a look at what people who are serious about shooting for money or blood are using. It is all well and good to mourn the good old days past and proclaim there is only one true way, but it seems that professional use has moved away from surplus items. The old style mags may in some cases be good but the overwhelming majority who place their life or reputation on the line with a pistol aren't choosing surplus mags.
 
re:

Jungle? You still hijackin' my thread?

laugh.gif


Go back and read the original post, lad. It's a report on an observation that I've made a few dozen times over the years. I only reported it because I now have three information super highway participants who have also seen it, and will bear witness...if you'd just take the time to go and ask.

But...solely for the sake of redundancy, I'll write it one more time.

It's a suggestion to the folks who have neither the money to send a delinquent pistol to a good smith...nor the time to wait for the 6-8 week turnaround. There is a logic in all this that seems to have escaped you.
Is it cheaper and easier to have the gun professionally reworked...or is it cheaper and easier to just buy a few magazines that WILL work? I see that suggestion all the time on the errornet. Is it only when I make it that it becomes a problem...or does it just seem to be that way?

The offer I made stands. Whenever you come to...Charlotte, I believe you mentioned...you are invited to come and observe for yourself.
 
No hijack intended, just reporting my observations.

I have seen quite a few pistols work just fine when supplied with quality mags of whatever type. So, just for the sake of those who missed it, if your pistol has a mag problem, most any quality mag will fix it. If it is more than a mag problem it won't.
If you want the best mags for your pistol, they won't be coming out of the surplus bin. I agree with what you are saying, it just seems that the choice of mag you hold in the highest esteem gets very little play among those who use pistols to protect lives.
Run what you like, you'll not hear nary a peep from me.
 
re:

>>If you want the best mags for your pistol, they won't be coming out of the surplus bin.<<

An opinion that isn't shared by all. Maybe you just haven't tried good, undamaged GI magazines. Harder to find than they once were...but they're out there. You're welcome to come try a few.
**************


>>Run what you like, you'll not hear nary a peep from me.<<

Thank you...
 
Thanks for the generous offer Tuner, but I have nice bunch of the correct and crisp GI mags, I just don't favor them. This doesn't mean I'll be giving them away though.

Not many people want a pistol used on a regular and heavy basis to be tied to a somewhat rare(and becoming rarer) and difficult to obtain source of magazines. Sorry I don't agree with you in this instance. Most of what you say is perfectly reasonable.
I will say it again for you lad, if it won't work with an easily available Wilson, CMC or Metalform, you've got problems that aren't really mag related.
 
re:

>>I will say it again for you lad, if it won't work with an easily available Wilson, CMC or Metalform, you've got problems that aren't really mag related.<<
**********

Oh...I don't have a problem with'em. I just don't trust'em. Well...except for 7-round Metalforms, as long as they've got a Wolff spring in'em. Those work fine.
 
Just for raw data...

I have several 1911 variant pistols.

A 1918 made GI 1911, slide marked Remington -UMC (not sure about the frame). This pistol was turned into a 'hardball gun' at some point by an unknown mechanic. I obtained it after it was shot loose to some degree and replaced the high adjustable sights with something on the order of National Match (fixed) high sights.

A Colt Series 70 Mark IV. Replaced the collet bushing and replaced the original sights with MMC fixed sights.

A Colt Series 70 Mark IV hardball gun prepared by the late Don Nygord.

Another Colt Series 70 Mark IV hardball gun prepared by an unknown mechanic.

A Colt Commercial pre-Series 70, built into a wadcutter target pistol by Jimmy Clark of Shreveport, LA. It has since been altered by the addition of one of those skeletonized hammers.

A Colt LW Commander.

All these pistols are in .45 ACP. For ammunition I shoot factory hardball or my reloaded equivilent, Federal Hydra-Shok (230 grain), or a practise load of 200 grain lead and a dose of fast powder to operate the slide. The Clark gun shoots only 200 lead SWC and 3.4 grains of Clays. These may not sound adventurous, but they work for my purposes.

All guns work (cycle and function) well with Metalform magazines. I do have a few other magazines, including what I think are GI surplus (ranging from nice and clean to ratty and beat up). I have one Wilson combat with bumper pad. All the magazines work to one level or other. The Metalforms are clearly the superior magazines of those in my possession.

In the past, I've had very good service from surplus GI magazines. However, they (those I have) are getting old and used from some years of 'combat' matches.

I will be buying more Metalform magazines.
 
Well, now that I've finely returned to Arizona and got my computer up and running I'll throw my two-cents worth in.

GENUINE USGI magazine are not, and never were sub-standard. Uncle Sam made the drawings and material specifications. Those standards were enforced by on-site government inspectors overseeing what was going on at the contractor's factory. This was true regardless of what component (or the whole gun) was being made. The highest standards went in effect about the time of the Korean War, and remained until the Beretta M-9 was adopted. I don't believe any of the current crop of 1911 magazines are subjected to this kind of quality control, and some show it. :mad:

Unfortunately, there are tons of counterfeit military magazines on the market being represented as the real thing, and in truth they are far from it.

The original USGI/Colt Commercial magazine had tapered lips. This allowed the release point to be adjusted if necessary by reforming the lips. Most, if not all of the current aftermarket magazines have short lips that predetermine where the cartridge will be released, with little option as to changing it. This may be good or bad, but it doesn’t leave much in the way of options.

The magazine was designed to hold 7 rounds, while not overstressing the spring, and to feed all rounds, including the last one, to correctly position the cartridge during the slide’s run-up.

As has been noted, the follower has that little, but necessary dimple. And if necessary it can be slightly reformed to adjust the feeding angle.

All of this is not to say that certain aftermarket magazines won’t work. It appears that some do and some don’t. But none of them has the kind of proven track record accorded to the original one.

Users can choose whatever magazine(s) they want, and if they feel comfortable with them… well then that’s fine. I personally, like Tuner, will stick to that which has been proven to work during my long lifetime of shooting.

And in reflection I don't think I ever met a good pistol that couldn't be reduced to a jam-o-matic by simply inserting a bad magazine.:scrutiny:
 
Metalform

As it stands, I have over a hundred Metalform magazines...with the wadcutter feed lips. 7 round/standard flat follower/Wolff springs. They work.
Without the Wolff springs, they're a bit more "iffy" in a few unaltered guns. The only issue that I have with Metalform's standard followers is that they're a little too soft. Much prefer tempered steel followers...but I'll settle for what they offer, since they rarely have to be replaced.

Wish I could get lucky enough to find a couple hundred unused GI followers...
 
I found a couple of 1911 magazines in an antique store today and am curious what they are. I could not find anything in the few reference books I have. They appear to be GI magazines with the following markings on the baseplates:

19200-
ASSY 5508694
MFR. 1M291

Any idea what I have?
 
I have been shooting 1911s for 59 plus years and was given my first one 51 years ago a US Army 1914 Colt. I still have it and it still is a reliable shooter. Over the years I have owned many different ones. My collection gets for ever larger especioally the last 10 years. I agree the original ones if undamaged and with springs that are up to spec work just fine in "original" type 1911s. Needles to say they do not work in my Open custom 2011 STI. True undamaged original magazines are hard to find. Many after market mags have different specs in my view just as some currently manufactured "1911s do not quite have original specs. You do not have to spend a lot of money for the highest end mags which mightnot work in your pistol.

Tuner - If you are going to the shot show I would like to meet you and buy you linch.

Dean
[email protected]
410-952-7848 cell nationwide
 
GI Mags

Dean wrote:

>I agree the original ones if undamaged and with springs that are up to spec work just fine in "original" type 1911s. True undamaged original magazines are hard to find.<

Yes they are scarce these days. I just came into 10 brand new/unused, pristine WW2-era magazines. A mixture of Risdon, MS Little, and Scovill.
They all work in all my pistols...old and new alike...and I can detect little difference in the strength of the springs and 11-pound Wolff springs once the Wolffs have been used for a few cycles and taken a set. In fact...all my USGI magazines work fine in all my pistols...and I have nearly four dozen.
The unaltered GIs, dating from 1912 to 1945 will gobble hardball and lead SWC with equal relish, and they do it from the old "Hardball Only" magazines.

Ya won't see me at SHOT, Doc. I stay away from crowds, and that ain't really my scene anyway. Too hung up on the oldies to get all worked up over
new things. Bad back won't let me make the trip by car...and I don't do airplanes.:scrutiny:

So...If ya wanna see my Nork collection, you'll hafta take I-95 north to I-85 north to Old US-64. Easy directions from there.;)
 
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