"Magazine Safety": Good Idea or Tool of the Devil?
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Terminology problems
Your poll question is misleading because you, like many others, have been duped into playing the gun control game by the anti-gunner's rules.
There is no such thing as a "magazine safety". Some guns, including one of my Browning Hi-Powers came equipped with a magazine "disconnector". It is NOT a safety. Think about it. A safety is "engaged" or in the "safe" or non-firing position almost all of the time when the gun is being carried/used. It is in the "off" or firing position only from just before the shot is made until just afterwards. A "magazine disconnector" is just the opposite. It is in the firing position ALL of the time that the gun is being carried/used except during reloading.
Some people consider magazine disconnectors to be a "safety feature" and I'm aware of a number of cops that are still alive because they were able to activate the disconnector (by dropping the magazine) when they were struggling with a criminal who had gotten hold of thier gun. I am also aware of a similar number of good guys who are still alive because they were able to fire without the magazine being in place. I have seen quite a few officers accidentally hit the mag release button as they drew their guns. Fortunately this was during training and qualifications and not on the street. Set your guns up the way you like them (or the way your agency requires them to be) and learn to live with the shortcomings. In my case, none of my guns have any kind of magazine disconnectors or key locks on them and never will.
Yes, I'm aware that some manufacturers refer to it as a "safety". That is just a marketing/liability thing that was started by John Browning when he designed the Hi-Power. The military establishment that the gun was being designed for had specified that it have two "safety" devices, as the U.S. military had done when the 1911 was being developed. Browning knew of the many problems with the grip safety that he used on the 1911 so he came up with a magazine disconnector and passed it off as a "safety". Liability lawyers have pushed many other companies to include disconnectors on their guns to protect the companies from unethical plaintiff's lawyers.
Another terminology problem is “high capacity” magazines. While we all know that these items are inherently evil and can cause otherwise normal citizens to commit random mass murders, most of us don't know exactly what a “high capacity” magazine is. A true high capacity magazine is a magazine of greater capacity than the one that a particular gun was designed for. Thus, a 17 round magazine in a Glock 17 is a “standard capacity” magazine, (regardless of what some corrupt/malfeasant/incompetent legislature has decided to label it) while the same magazine placed in a Glock 19 (designed around a 15 round magazine) is then a “high capacity” magazine. Likewise, a 10 round magazine made for a Glock 17 is a “restricted capacity” magazine.
Let's use the proper and accurate words instead of the propaganda terms of the gun banners and maybe we can move this discussion to a more level field. Stay safe!
Your poll question is misleading because you, like many others, have been duped into playing the gun control game by the anti-gunner's rules.
There is no such thing as a "magazine safety". Some guns, including one of my Browning Hi-Powers came equipped with a magazine "disconnector". It is NOT a safety. Think about it. A safety is "engaged" or in the "safe" or non-firing position almost all of the time when the gun is being carried/used. It is in the "off" or firing position only from just before the shot is made until just afterwards. A "magazine disconnector" is just the opposite. It is in the firing position ALL of the time that the gun is being carried/used except during reloading.
Some people consider magazine disconnectors to be a "safety feature" and I'm aware of a number of cops that are still alive because they were able to activate the disconnector (by dropping the magazine) when they were struggling with a criminal who had gotten hold of thier gun. I am also aware of a similar number of good guys who are still alive because they were able to fire without the magazine being in place. I have seen quite a few officers accidentally hit the mag release button as they drew their guns. Fortunately this was during training and qualifications and not on the street. Set your guns up the way you like them (or the way your agency requires them to be) and learn to live with the shortcomings. In my case, none of my guns have any kind of magazine disconnectors or key locks on them and never will.
Yes, I'm aware that some manufacturers refer to it as a "safety". That is just a marketing/liability thing that was started by John Browning when he designed the Hi-Power. The military establishment that the gun was being designed for had specified that it have two "safety" devices, as the U.S. military had done when the 1911 was being developed. Browning knew of the many problems with the grip safety that he used on the 1911 so he came up with a magazine disconnector and passed it off as a "safety". Liability lawyers have pushed many other companies to include disconnectors on their guns to protect the companies from unethical plaintiff's lawyers.
Another terminology problem is “high capacity” magazines. While we all know that these items are inherently evil and can cause otherwise normal citizens to commit random mass murders, most of us don't know exactly what a “high capacity” magazine is. A true high capacity magazine is a magazine of greater capacity than the one that a particular gun was designed for. Thus, a 17 round magazine in a Glock 17 is a “standard capacity” magazine, (regardless of what some corrupt/malfeasant/incompetent legislature has decided to label it) while the same magazine placed in a Glock 19 (designed around a 15 round magazine) is then a “high capacity” magazine. Likewise, a 10 round magazine made for a Glock 17 is a “restricted capacity” magazine.
Let's use the proper and accurate words instead of the propaganda terms of the gun banners and maybe we can move this discussion to a more level field. Stay safe!
FIVETWOSEVEN
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One of my Dad's Friend's son was killed because of that. Granted the safety would have saved him. But still proper handling makes such a safety moot.
While in general, I do not like magazine disconnects, my Hi Power still has it's disconnect in place. Except for casual target shooting, I am more likely, at this time, to use the pistol for some self defense role and would be concerned about some hot shot lawyer would conjure up.
The Hi power is the only handgun I have that has a magazine disconnet.
On the other hand, I did disable the automatic safety on my Beretta Oynx. After years of shooting skeet with a Browning Citori with a manual safety, the automatic safety on the Onyx was just wrong. You don't break many clay targets with the safety on!
The Hi power is the only handgun I have that has a magazine disconnet.
On the other hand, I did disable the automatic safety on my Beretta Oynx. After years of shooting skeet with a Browning Citori with a manual safety, the automatic safety on the Onyx was just wrong. You don't break many clay targets with the safety on!
This isn't the word police, and there's no attitude. No one is challenging your mastery of the English language. He's simply pointing out how words affect peoples' perceptions. Sometimes we adopt terminology that can influence our decisions in a subtle way. I completely agree with the idea. Anyone who is pro-gun should make a conscious effort to avoid using "anti" terminology wherever possible.
Here's a non-gun example. I've heard an internet mogul raise objection to the term "IRL" (In Real Life). This term suggests that the internet is fake. He prefers the term "AFK" (Away From Keyboard).
If you feel strongly about the subject, one way or the other, you might consider such things. If all you care about is shootin' yer guns till someone comes and takes them away, then don't sweat it.
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BHPshooter
Member
C1ogden,
your paragraph about John Browning and the mag disconnect is completely fallacious. John Browning did not come up with the mag disconnect, nor did he "pass it off" as a safety. The forerunner to the Hi Power, the Grand Rendement, was designed to compete for the French military Concours de Pistolets. The French had a laundry list of demands, among which was a magazine disconnect. Browning simply gave the French, by way of FN, what they asked for.
As to the original post, I hate magazine disconnects. All of my BHPs have them removed. I can recognize that they can have a place in law enforcement. I like the way that S&W offers them as an option.
your paragraph about John Browning and the mag disconnect is completely fallacious. John Browning did not come up with the mag disconnect, nor did he "pass it off" as a safety. The forerunner to the Hi Power, the Grand Rendement, was designed to compete for the French military Concours de Pistolets. The French had a laundry list of demands, among which was a magazine disconnect. Browning simply gave the French, by way of FN, what they asked for.
As to the original post, I hate magazine disconnects. All of my BHPs have them removed. I can recognize that they can have a place in law enforcement. I like the way that S&W offers them as an option.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Precisely my point...but how many people have we all seen who handle loaded guns as though they were toys? Some of the more experienced gun people I've been around are enough to give me the heebie-jeebies. My step-father...age 88 with former military experience...and my ex father in-law/USN vet...are two such examples. Hand either one a gun, and their fingers immediately go to the trigger, and they're not all that careful about where the muzzle looks. For people like that, the magazine disconnect gives me a little more security because I can remove the magazine and put it in my pocket.
My older Belgian High Power has its disconnect in place and operational. The trigger isn't all that great, but it's completely manageable, and I can shoot the gun just fine. In its intended role as a close-range emergency tool...the gun is more than satisfactory. It may be more difficult to shoot a tight group on a bullseye target at 50 yards than one with a crisp 3.5 pound trigger...but that's not the High Power's venue. It doesn't bother me one bit, so it will remain in place.
Every now and then I read in the paper that some kid messing around with his dad's gun drops the magazine and thinking the gun is safe shoots his sibling or friend.
If you don't have any kids around the house you can easily remove the magazine safety from most guns.
If you don't have any kids around the house you can easily remove the magazine safety from most guns.
Hangingrock
Member
If good old John Browning had designed the final version of the 1911 with a magazine disconnect and Jeff Cooper had thought it to be a wonderful idea would there be this discussion?
hapidogbreath
Member
Why does everyone talk about fighting over the GUN and retention????? If you are engaged in a fight for your gun shove your thumb in the eye of the attacker and he will forget about the gun. End of fight. For correction officers where you are dealing with numbers????? Possibly.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Possibly. One thing for sure...If the US Army had requested a magazine disconnect, it would have been there. Browning didn't have complete autonomy. He gave'em what they asked for. No more and no less.
That doesn't guarantee anything. One of middleweight champ Harry Greb's opponents jammed a thumb in his eye early in their fight, giving him a detached retina. Greb went on to give him a drubbing for the next 12 rounds. Some people don't give up because they're hurt. Many of them get positively vicious. Some become even more dangerous when hurt.
hapidogbreath
Member
"Greb went on to give him a drubbing for the next 12 rounds" Greb was fighting for a reason. To win. Most Things I fight with on the street aren't up for that and when you keep pressing the attack, digging the digit into the socket it gives you time to also do other things. We are not talking boxing.
postalnut25
Member
I have no use for a magazine disconnect. When practicing dry-firing, I don't like having to have a magazine in place.
I would prefer to have the magazine well empty, and just rack the slide after each trigger pull in order to dry fire. That is why I had to look around and make sure that my M&P didn't have the magazine disconnect.
I would prefer to have the magazine well empty, and just rack the slide after each trigger pull in order to dry fire. That is why I had to look around and make sure that my M&P didn't have the magazine disconnect.
Billy Shears
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I just love it when armchair ninjas feel qualified to pontificate authoritatively about how to deal with a situation they've never had to face.
Tpr0811
Member
I have used weapons with the magazine disconnect for 17 or 18 years and have learned to live with them. They have all been issue weapons. Still don't care for the PC reason they are there.
So you would not have purchased the M&P if it had a magazine disconnect even though it would take a full three minutes to remove it?
76shuvlinoff
Member
For me they belong in the same file as seat belt and helmet laws.
Fine with me as long as I am allowed to choose ...but that's just me.
Fine with me as long as I am allowed to choose ...but that's just me.
postalnut25
Member
Yep. I would have waited until I got one without the disconnect. I shouldn't have to work on a brand new gun when I can buy one the way I want it.
waterhouse
Member
It isn't only corrections officers who may have to deal with numbers. I posted this in a previous thread on the topic:
Slightly OT for the disconnect conversation, but I also don't think blanket statements like "an eye gouge will end the fight" are always valid either. First, fights don't always offer the convenience of being situated to deliver a thumb into an eye socket.
Second, in the situation described, you are fighting over a deadly weapon, where your life is literally on the line. You state that the reason a boxer stayed in a match after an eye gouge was because he wanted to win. How much harder do you think he would have fought it it was his life, not a boxing match, at stake? Humans can endure incredible pain to survive . . . don't count on someone in a fight for their life letting go of a gun because you inflict a certain amount of pain.
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First thing I did, when I got my SR9c home, was to break it down for cleaning.
At that time, I used a metal punch to depress the pin in the back of the slide cover.
With the pin depressed, the small plastic cover slid off the back of the slide.
Then, depressing the metal tab under the slide, it was easy to extract the firing pin.
At this time, with the firing pin about halfway out, the mag disconnect popped up from its seat in the slide. It's a little horseshoe-shaped piece with a tiny spring on one side.
The disconnect piece went into my spare parts box.
I finished cleaning the gun up, oiled it, and later took it to the range. After a box or two of ammo was through the gun, I made sure one round was in the chamber, dropped the magazine, and fired the round in the chamber, ensuring the mag disconnect removal had been accomplished correctly.
hapidogbreath
Member
To Billy S. I am Far From an "ARM CHAIR NINJA" 16 years of LE and 6 years USMC. I happen to know a thing or two. I'm not saying its an absolute fight stopper but it has worked very well in my experience.
Yes if your cleaning the pistol and already have it dissasembled it only takes about 30 seconds more to remove the magazine disconnect and if your replacing the firing pin spring it's almost part of the procedure.
One of the reasons I like striker fired pistols is the simplicity of the firing system.
Billy Shears
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Then you ought to know better! If it were as simple as that do you really imagine that so many officers would have had their guns taken and been killed with them over the years? Sure a thumb in the eye is a fight stopper... if you're assailant isn't flying high on PCP and can't feel any pain, or if he isn't larger and stronger than you, or if you aren't worn slam out after a lengthy foot pursuit and you know that if you take both hands off the gun, he'll tear it right out of your weakening grasp and kill you with it, or if any number of other possible things. Though I see you have qualified this statement now, you initially offered this advice without qualification. so it came across with the air of "I don't see what the problem is. Just do this, problem solved." Well, if you have the experience that you say you have, then you should know that NOTHING works every time in defensive scenarios. There are no fool proof techniques in defensive tactics. Every situation is different and every combatant is different.
I'm a ten year veteran LEO myself (4 year army infantry), so I certainly know better than to make unqualified, authoritative pronouncements like the one you made. A thumb in the eye is an effective fight stopper. But neither it nor anything else is the universal solution to a given problem, and as I say, if you have the experience you say you have, this is something you should certainly know.
The Lone Haranguer
Member
Deleted, please disregard.
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