Man Aquitted of first degree murder under "make my day" law

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I'm not sure the simple act of loading a weapon equals "premeditation".
Premeditation does not mean taking a day or two to think a plan through

He thought to grab the rifle, he thought to load it, he thought to pursue his prey, he thought to aim and fire. All of this after the immediate danger had passed

Each of the above steps should be enough to give a person pause to consider what they are going to do

He made a plan and followed through.
Good for him, but don't expect the same outcome next time
 
Byron Quick said:
Nineseven,

I've more experience than I would wish. Seven friends and relatives murdered in the past twenty-five years. Came home on a burglar one night.
I've been left lying paralyzed in the middle of a highway in the middle of the night after being bludgeoned from behind.

I have no sympathy for the logic behind letting the poor criminal go for he has finished his assault and now simply wants to flee and no longer be a threat to anyone. It is fallacious logic and it is folly. And good men have been sent to prison because of it.

Roger that, I know exactly where you are coming from. Myself, I still can't shake the feeling of it all...havinjg an attacker get away and wondering for hours, days, weeks, maybe even years if he's coming back or not...looking over your shoulder when you're an innocent man is no way to spend your life. Cheers, have a virtual beer on me.
 
joab said:
Premeditation does not mean taking a day or two to think a plan through

He thought to grab the rifle, he thought to load it, he thought to pursue his prey, he thought to aim and fire. All of this after the immediate danger had passed

Each of the above steps should be enough to give a person pause to consider what they are going to do

He made a plan and followed through.
Good for him, but don't expect the same outcome next time

That does not fit the definition of premedititation.

Premeditation:
The contemplation of a crime well enough in advance to show deliberate intent to commit the crime; forethought.


The operative words being "well enough in advance". IMHO, the SHTF when this guy woke up, he reacted and someone wound up dead...but IANAL, so YMMV. Reaction, regardless of whether or not there are multiple steps involved in the reaction, does not equal premeditiation. Otherwise, all shooting would be premeditated. The simple act of removing your cover garment, drawing your weapon out of your holster, taking a stance, removing the safety, aiming and firing is the same amount of steps involved as what our shooter in this case did.

Grabbing a gun and loading a round is not premeditaion. Goinig outside to confront your attackers is not even necessarily premeditiation. It's a very fine line, I can see why he was not convicted. If the charge was third degree murder, it might have stuck. Voluntary manslaughter had the best chance to stick though; in fact, given the right jury, it would have been a near slam dunk.

§ 2503. Voluntary manslaughter.
(a) General rule.-A person who kills an individual without lawful justification commits voluntary manslaughter if at the time of the killing he is acting under a sudden and intense passion resulting from serious provocation by:


the individual killed; or
another whom the actor endeavors to kill, but to negligently or accidently causes the death of the individual killed.

(b) Unreasonable belief killing justifiable.-A person who intentionally or knowingly kills an individual commits voluntary manslaughter if at the time of the killing he believes the circumstances to be such that, if they existed, would justify the killing under Chapter 5 of this title (relating to general principles of justification), but his belief is unreasonable.

(c) Grading.-Voluntary manslaughter is a felony of the first degree.


Now, that's PA law mind you, but I would assume it is similar in most states.
 
The contemplation of a crime well enough in advance to show deliberate intent to commit the crime; forethought.
I pretty much outlined his deliberations, which were well enough in advance to stop himself at any point.

Grabbing a gun and loading a round is not premeditaion.
Depends on the jury and how the case is presented
And the article did not say he loaded a round it said he loaded the gun
 
I would say that anything that takes place in the "heat of the moment" does not fit any reasonable definition of premeditation. This might qualify as second degree murder rather than manslaughter, but the circumstances do not appear to indicate premeditation.

Joab, you sound like a prosecutor who was quoted as saying that "premeditation can occur in an instant." That's idiotic.
 
Whether you're on the side that thinks this was a bad shoot, or the side that thinks it was a good shoot, one thing's for sure. It sends a powerful message to the vermin out there that think they are free to assault & flee without serious payback.

Tuckerdog1
 
joab said:
I pretty much outlined his deliberations, which were well enough in advance to stop himself at any point.

Depends on the jury and how the case is presented
And the article did not say he loaded a round it said he loaded the gun

It's still legally Voluntary Manslaughter, at least according to PA law...which I assume is similar. But hey, you're entitled to your opinion I suppose. :neener:
 
The jury said he did not break any laws.

NineseveN said:
I'm not so sure:

1. They were still within proximity of his property. If he goes to theirs, he is now trespassing, and it is obviously premeditated. Murder 1 would probably stick then, and it probably should.

In this case, they were still within proximity; they were possibly still on his property when he took the shot.

He has no moral (maybe legal, maybe not) obligation to wait for them to wound him or make good on their threats, he assessed what their intentions were and perceived a threat. They could have been all getting into the car to grab a few handguns out of the glove box to go and finish him off. They could have been plotting to go back in and kill him right then seeing as they already would be hit up with a felony or two and he could ID at least one or two of them. It is not his obligation to wait until they make a third attempt to inflict serious bodily harm on him. They very well may have said, "we'll be back" while he was lying there after being beaten with some brass knuckles, and then they departed. A reasonable person may assume that either they meant at a later time that night, a later date or even a few minutes. So he arms himself and goes out, sees them in the car, and whatever transpired convinced him to shoot. They may have said something, they may have said nothing, they may have given him some good tips on planting squash during the fall, we don't really know.

What we do know for a fact is that he was assaulted twice that evening by members of this group, the second time with a deadly weapon, both times in his own home. Brandishing his rifle did not serve as a deterrent as they came back, with help (though it is unclear if the newcomers into the group knew about the firearm or not at that time). His home was broken into and this group of people that assaulted him trespassed upon his property.

All the shooter did was have a party, argue with a girl over her keys or purse, brandish a rifle and went to bed.

Sorry but all we have to go on is some media accounts, a jury decision and speculation. We can speculate because we are not determining his guilt or innocence, the jury has already done so, we are simply discussing this because it is interesting and this is a discussion forum.

In this discussion, I'm going to give the shooter the benefit of the doubt that he acted as I would have and felt that they posed a reasonable threat to his life or physical well being, and I will trust the jury that he acted within the scope of the law. Thus, I rule it a good shoot.




I agree with the prosecutor as well. He thought he either had a case, or decided to charge Hill with something he knew would never stick as one could not really prove premeditation for 1st degree murder, either way, he brought his case before the jury, who then found Hill not guilty. If it was correct for the DA to charge Hill, then, as they were most likely acting on their conscience, the Jury was right to render a not guilty verdict, that's the point of a jury.

But you say they were leaving, leaving to go where, to get what and to do what? Is Hill supposed to wait for them to come back armed a few minutes later before the police can arrive after he dials 9-1-1, so he can play out someone's Rambo fantasy in his front yard and hope he makes it through the night?

Judged, not carried. YMMV.



I could not have said it better.
He did not spray the streets with gun fire. One shot one kill. Not much danger to anyone else.
 
joab said:
I pretty much outlined his deliberations, which were well enough in advance to stop himself at any point.
Pretty easy to say from behind a keyboard.
 
Jeff White said:
The prosecutor was correct in charging him. Too bad the jury was won over by a good defense attorney.

I've not read the text of the Colorado law, but I don't think it allows you to defend yourself from intruders while they are retreating. I'm sure the Texas delegation will jump in and point out that he wouldn't have been charged in Texas because you can shoot anyone for any reason at any time there....;)

Jeff

No no no... you can only shoot YANKEES for any reason at any time. You have to be more circumspect with Southerners...
 
yonderway said:

I did catch your post before you deleted it, while I disagreed with it, it seemed well presented and thoughtful. I am curious as to why you deleted it...though it's none of my business.
 
NineseveN said:
I did catch your post before you deleted it, while I disagreed with it, it seemed well presented and thoughtful. I am curious as to why you deleted it...though it's none of my business.

I seemed to have misread the abstract the first time through and didn't realize initially that this was a response to a series of assaults carried out in one day, leaving the shooter wondering if they were going to come back again for more.
 
Pretty easy to say from behind a keyboard.
That has got to be one of the lamest most over used insults left on the net

Did I run into DU by mistake

I disagree with the shoot, and am apparently backed up by a prosecutor somewhere, and now I'm an idiotic keyboard commando.
I live in Ocoee Fl, it's a small town, I'm easy to find, if you want to see if I respond the same way in person

Next time one of you get into a situation where you have to decide whether or not to fire on a fleeing assailant or raccoon feeder thief that poses no more immediate danger to you go ahead and pull the trigger.

$10 bucks says your back here whining about being charged for their murder
 
yonderway said:
I seemed to have misread the abstract the first time through and didn't realize initially that this was a response to a series of assaults carried out in one day, leaving the shooter wondering if they were going to come back again for more.

Fair enough. :)
 
Jeff White said:
I suppose that all of you who think Hill was justified shooting at them when they were fleeing would also excuse Hill if he had went to their home a couple of days later and shot them. After all, they promised to come back....There is no difference. The prosecutor was right. I don't agree with first degree murder, but it was correct to charge Hill. The attack was over. His assailants were leaving.

Jeff
I can't buy into this. While I probably wouldn't have done what he did, I probably WOULD have had a gun near me, and used it while they were still in the house. You can't simply come in, beat hell out of me, and run back out while yelling over your shoulder, "Don't even think of shooting us! As you can plainly see, we're leaving! And, if we come back and beat you senseless again and leave before you can get a clear shot, you are NOT pulling that trigger, remember that! We can do this as many times as we want!"
Too many scumbags are working the laws to their advantage and getting minimal punishment if any. Sorry but this case gives me a sneaky yet warm fuzzy feeling.
 
joab -

joab said:
I pretty much outlined his deliberations, which were well enough in advance to stop himself at any point.

Trip20 said:
Pretty easy to say from behind a keyboard.
I'm pointing out that it's easy to say the victim could stop himself at any point when you are not the person being assaulted (for the second time) in your own home; but instead you're sitting behind a keyboard in a calm environment.

While you may agree with allowing your attackers to retreat, re-arm, and re-attempt an assault with a deadly weapon, I do not.

I also don't care to pay airfare, fly to your small town in FL, only to find out you make gross assumptions in person - not just behind your keyboard.

I don't own a raccoon feeder, and I didn't call you an "idiotic keyboard commando". Don't be so sensitive.
 
While you may agree with allowing your attackers to retreat, re-arm, and re-attempt an assault with a deadly weapon, I do not.
Talk about gross assumptions
Please show me where I suggested any of that or where there was any credible threat of them returning with a deadly weapon. If they had meant more than they did the four of them could have stayed and finished the job.

I guess grabbing a rifle, that obviously is not a dedicated self defense gun, loading the weapon, pursuing your prey up stairs to where they are now in their car leaving the scene and unable to cause you any immediate danger and firing into the car makes more sense to you than calling the police to report a second attack with injuries and remaing in your home.
(If a cop had done that we would be reading a cops suck thread now)

But I know, some times a man gotta be a man.
Like pulling a rifle on a girl because she bitch slaps you
I'm pointing out that it's easy to say the victim could stop himself at any point when you are not the person being assaulted (for the second time) in your own home; but instead you're sitting behind a keyboard in a calm environment.
Then what you are pointing out is false.
He was not being assaulted. The assault was over. He was being pissed off and seeking retribution. And what makes you think that my whole life has been spent behind this keyboard in the sheltered enviroment of my home
 
joab said:
Please show me where I suggested any of that or where there was any credible threat of them returning with a deadly weapon.
The assailants did return with a deadly weapon.

http://www.gazette.com/display.php?id=1312918 <<<OR>>> Just read the original thread. said:
Padilla testified she hit Hill three more times, and once more with brass knuckles, causing his head to bleed.

The victim was initially assaulted in his home and asked the assailant to leave. The assailant returned, with backup, and with a deadly weapon.

We have an initial assault.
We have the assailant returning.
We have the assailant returning with greater numbers.
We have the assailant returning with greater numbers and a deadly weapon.

Not entirely ridiculous for the victim to fear they would return again, for a 3rd time, is it?

Not entirely ridiculous for the victim to fear they would return again, for the 3rd time, with more people, is it?

Not entirely ridiculous for the bictim to fear they would return again, for the 3rd time, with more deadly (or deadlier) weapons, is it?

Not entirely ridiculous for the victim to fear they would return again, for the 3rd time, when they promised to do so, is it?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/15/make.myday.ap/index.html <<<OR>>> Read Post #43. said:
"Gary went through this horrible and traumatic event," said defense attorney Ted McClintock. "They promised they were going to come back in. They had already come back once."

joab said:
If they had meant more than they did the four of them could have stayed and finished the job.
Really? How do you know this? Source please. Nevermind, we know there's no source. Only your feeling.
 
Not entirely ridiculous for the victim to fear they would return again, for a 3rd time, is it?
But I guess calling the police would be ridiculous.

Nevermind, we know there's no source. Only your feeling.
That's right my behind the keyboard feelings. Could you please come up with some original insults.

Maybe this will teach him to call the police next time feels the need to threaten a female with deadly force for slapping him.
If he had taken that rational course of action he may not have had to take the irrational couse he chose later
 
Trip this makes the second time I have been subjected to your petty and juvenile insults over a difference of opinion.

I see no reason to engage someone who obviously lacks the maturity to accept another's differring view points without poorly executed third grade taunts so I'll just ignore you.

I have made my opinons crystal clear for anybody that want's to read them.
If another member want's to discuss what I have actually written or try to change my views, I welcome the conversation
Oh look I have a new sig line
 
As I re-read my posts (all 3 that are directed to you, not including this post), I see no insults. You have definitely taken what I've said as an insult - that's obvious. I'm sure, then, that you should report my insulting posts to the moderators?

I did ask you not to be so sensitive when you took my comment about being behind the keyboard, to mean you're an "idiotic keyboard commando" - your words, not mine. Not sure how you made that leap, but you're doing it with each of my posts.

I see it in the reverse, though I don’t feel insulted. Your own posts would insult you, though:

joab said:
That has got to be one of the lamest most over used insults left on the net

joab said:
Did I run into DU by mistake

joab said:
your petty and juvenile

joab said:
someone who obviously lacks the maturity

joab said:
poorly executed third grade taunts

joab said:
I'm easy to find, if you want to see if I respond the same way in person

I agree we should discontinue our conversation, especially since an otherwise good thread may be shut down for veering on to the low road.

I'll leave this thread to you.
 
Well the upshot of the whole thing is to not date girls who break into homes, carry brass knuckles, and hit sleeping people in the face with those brass knuckles.

Well then again if she's OK in some other ways maybe you can look past some of those minor personality glitches. But whatever you do; never fall asleep around her when she’s mad!

Oh and by the way the person that should have been charged with murder was Amanda Padilla because a death resulted during her commission of a felony.

The jury let this fellow go and that is the jury’s right, but it could have gone the other way. Many people are in jail for similar reasons. He will lose the civil trial.
 
He unloaded his gun after chasing people off with it and they threatened to return? Looks like we need a new condition of awareness. What's lower than white?
 
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