Marksmanship and heavy (.375H&H) recoil

[edwardware]

Thanks to the positive influence of several members here, I'm working on marksmanship under heavy recoil. I have a .375H&H M70 Alaskan, and my progress to date is puzzling. I'm shooting bagged on a bench, with very firm forend control.

With Hornady's 270 Interlock, Speer's 300 GrandS lam, 270 HotCor, and Barnes 270 LRX, RL15, H4895, 4831SC, and BL-C(2), I can't produce anything consistently better than 2".

With Sierra's untuned starting load for 350 SMKs over 4831SC, I produce consistent sub-MOA 5-shot groups, most nearer 0.5", repeatably. The COAL is far over mag length, and recoil is heavy but a bit less snappy than the lighter bullets.

Obviously the gun is capable, and I'm at least not completely incompetent.
-Why can't I get any of the hunting bullets to behave?
-Where else should I be looking for issues?

 

[taliv]

well, hunting bullets aren't match bullets.

try using one of sierra's hunting bullets, or berger has some match/tactical etc or hornady a-tip. i'm not familiar with availability in .375 but that's what i'd do in a 30 cal magnum

 

[illinoisburt]

Not sure I understand the issue. A heavy match bullet is giving excellent accuracy on paper. Lighter weight hunting bullets impacting within an inch of point of aim at 100 yards (2moa). Pretty much a non-issue for hunting purposes out to 500 yards with any large game animal. Assuming you aren't planning to use a 375 for prairie dogs and ground squirrels, in which case you don't need controlled expansion bullets anyway.

 

[edwardware]

well, hunting bullets aren't match bullets.

And @illinoisburt
Is this really your experience? My other rifles in .223/.223AI, .277WM, etc all achieve ~MOA with many hunting bullets, and sometimes better with match bullets. None show 4x the dispersion with hunting bullets vs match.

Am I really just expecting way too much?

@taliv : would you consider Barnes' LRX in that class?

 

[adcoch1]

Sounds like your rifle likes heavier bullets. It might be a barrel harmonics thing. I would try speeding up or slowing down and see if it improves or gets worse. Also, are you shooting with ammo in the mag? Might be weak neck tension causing crimp jump and skewed velocities. Just my initial thoughts...

 

[edwardware]

@adcoch1 : I typically single-load during development because cartridges in the magazine definitely get flat noses from the recoil. I've set 0.004" neck tension and verified <0.002ish setback across 10 shots.

I've also experimented with reduced loads (H4895), but haven't pushed any of them really hard yet. I guess I'm kind of a wuss, but the thought of 10% more recoil makes my shoulder ache. I need to try (For Science!).

 

[Alaskan Ironworker]

I have an Alaskan in .375 also, mine likes a kinda slow load of 75 grains A4350 and 300 grain Nosler Partitions.

 

[Sav .250]

Not all can put every shot into the same hole. Just a figure of speech.
Meaning everybody has limits. When your done experimenting I think you`ll come to that conclusion.
Practice no doubt will get you there.

 

[Gordon]

Very strange ! I never heard of 350 Sierra Match kings, got to get me some of those ! I been fooling with various .375 H&H rifles for quite a while. Two of them I had reamed to .375 Weatherby as they still can take H&H ammo and produce Weatherby cases and the guy who reamed them did perfect chambers ,better than the original ones. My loads are all less than 2" , but of course with fliers bigger than that when I can't fool my self with trigger control. I do use a Lead Sled rest and. PAST shoulder pads on the bench with all my over .243 guns. I recommend you invest in one, they have a new handy water filled one that really works well, you will eliminate lots of problems. Try the lighter 260-250 grain bullets in it and see if they do better or worse. The 260 Accubond has been like a Varmint bullet in all my guns. Very accurate with 4350 recommended loads with Federal magnum primers.

 

[.38 Special]

Without meaning to be obnoxious, this all seems like a very curious exercise to me. I can't help but wonder what sort of hunting requires both .375-level power and sub-MOA precision.

 

[Archie]

I'm shooting bagged on a bench, with very firm forend control.

Shooting from a bench magnifies recoil more than offhand. You might try a standing rest. I put one together from an extra camera tripod and a bit of wood and carpet for the rest portion.

I can't produce anything consistently better than 2".

And...? A .375 H&H is a large game hunting rifle. What do you intend to hunt and at what range? You'd do well to have suitable hunting bullets that will positive stop and dispatch dangerous game quickly if not instantly. All of them of which I know anything are hunted within 200 yards or so and have a 'shoot zone' greater than four MOA.

Shooting tighter groups except for bragging rights will not better your hunting ability.

 

[edwardware]

I can't help but wonder what sort of hunting requires both .375-level power and sub-MOA precision.

You'll think I'm crazy, but: I don't hunt with it. I bought it for the challenge.

Shooting from a bench magnifies recoil. . .

I have noticed that! It also improves accuracy, which is my goal.

 

[edwardware]

I have an Alaskan in .375 also, mine likes a kinda slow load of 75 grains A4350 and 300 grain Nosler Partitions.

I have a box! I'll have to try, thank you.

 

[Gordon]

There is a lot of fun shooting high horse power at long range guns. Sure they can kill large game at very long range, but it is fun just unleashing all that horse power down range accurately ! Don't question other's hobbies please. Unless unsportsmanlike conduct is involved. I used to fool with .50 bmg rifles 20+ years ago but soon found they were too expensive to feed, too loud and places to shoot more and more limited. I also fooled with .338 caliber, the Lapua was kewl but again expensive and at that time rifle actions limited. I resurrected my .358 Norma which is cheaper and it is big and heavy barreled so not too punishing to shoot, but until quite recently the bullets lacked coefficients to make them really long range. So I fooled with a favorite hunting round of mine , the .375 H&H the last decade building a heavy barreled rifle on a Whitworth magnum action I had with a 26" Lothar Walther barrel. I have a 9 pound Brown Precision .375 H&H that is accurate for such a comparitivly light hunting rig , and a pre 64 Win Model 70 that will remain iron sighted . Both have proven themselves in Africa and Alaska and around the lower 48 . The current heavy .375 Weatherby is more a range toy. It seems the bore does really well at very long distance, much to my surprise. Yes I fooled with big .300 bored and still play with a couple ..264 mags and lately the 6.5 CM, but there is something about the bigger heavier bullets that are intriguing at any range

 

[Robert]

I shoot 270g Barnes TSX over IMR 4895. It gives me 1-1.5" at 100y and is about 1.5 or so high. This grouping will not win a match but it has proven plenty accurate for hunting, which is my primary use. That load is pleasant to shoot, even from the bench.

Now, a word on Winchester rifles and their bedding, or lack there of. If you have not already done so, have that rifle bedded by a pro. My Safari Express patterned like a shotgun when I bought it. It would put a few rounds in a good group and then would go nuts. I had the rifle bedded and it closed up the groups to a consistent 1" or so. The factory bedding in these rifles is complete junk. My crown also required cleaning and a minor recut.

Make sure the barrel is clean, mine copper fouls like crazy.

 

[.38 Special]

You'll think I'm crazy, but: I don't hunt with it. I bought it for the challenge.

Yeah, you're crazy.

I bought one of Ruger's Magnum rifles in .416 Rigby when they came out. Had been reading too much Ruark. I intended just to sight it in from the bench and then switch to field positions for the rest of my practice. The rifle ended up being so accurate that I spent far more time than I'd planned getting the stuffing knocked out of me from the bench, just to see how much accuracy I could wring from it.

Eventually I came to my senses, though.

 

[edwardware]

I shoot 270g Barnes TSX over IMR 4895. It gives me 1-1.5" at 100y and is about 1.5 or so high.

Care to say a charge weight? Really hot or mid-grade?

a word on Winchester rifles and their bedding, or lack there of. . . My crown also required cleaning and a minor recut.

Make sure the barrel is clean, mine copper fouls like crazy.

I re-bedded in Acra-Glass after the first range trip; Winchester's bedding was really scant. I also reground the crown.

I've noticed the copper fouling. It's definitely not a hand-lapped barrel, and the guy who's job it was to ream post-drill and pre hammer forging was asleep.

But it shoots with those 350s!

Yeah, you're crazy.
. . .
(I) had been reading too much Ruark.

cough Capstick cough

 

[Robert]

Care to say a charge weight? Really hot or mid-grade?

Middle of the road. I have it written down at home, but I'm vacation for two weeks. Once I get home I'll get it for you.

 

[illinoisburt]

And @illinoisburt
Is this really your experience? My other rifles in .223/.223AI, .277WM, etc all achieve ~MOA with many hunting bullets, and sometimes better with match bullets. None show 4x the dispersion with hunting bullets vs match.

Am I really just expecting way too much?

I would suspect its a jump and bearing surface issue given the consistent performance difference. Seat the hunting bullets closer to the lands to match up with the jump on the match bullets. Then try heavier hunting bullets.

 

[WestKentucky]

I can feel the pain you folks feel, but I do it with handguns. Big bores are good for hunting, but I hunt with a .357 so the big guns are just range toys that are hunting capable. I came to my senses a while back and got rid of all the big bores I had, but I’m feeling a bit crazy again and have started looking pretty realistically at X frames, BFRs, and Freedom Arms guns. The Taurus Raging Hunter also squeals out to me like the big pig that it is, and I am trying to talk myself out of it but the guns unique setup is just about what I want.

And I’m building a rifle too, slowly but surely, and I think it’s going to end up being a thumper of some sort. It may be a lightweight 450 bushmaster, which pales in comparison to recoil energy of a 375h&h but to do it in a 6 pound gun will liven things up considerably.

 

[Robert]

H&Hhunter is your medium/big bore expert.

 

[edwardware]

I can feel the pain you folks feel, but I do it with handguns.

My first foray into recoil was reading about the .44 Remington, S&W M29, Ruger Blackhawk, and the "accidental" Ruger Only .45 Colt. It makes the stoutest .357 feel moderate!

 

[Archie]

You'll think I'm crazy, but: I don't hunt with it. I bought it for the challenge.

Okay with me. Seems a bit odd to me, but some people like rum; I've never figured that out, either. Good luck.

I have noticed that! It also improves accuracy, which is my goal.

I presume you are familiar with recoil shields for clothing as well? I've got a .458 Winchester Magnum on a 1903 Springfield receiver and a Ruger No. 1 in .400 Nitro Express. I've developed loads for both and can reasonable connect with close targets offhand. But I do NOT like shooting those bruisers.

 

[.38 Special]

Okay with me. Seems a bit odd to me, but some people like rum; I've never figured that out, either. Good luck.
I presume you are familiar with recoil shields for clothing as well? I've got a .458 Winchester Magnum on a 1903 Springfield receiver and a Ruger No. 1 in .400 Nitro Express. I've developed loads for both and can reasonable connect with close targets offhand. But I do NOT like shooting those bruisers.

At some level - around the .375, at least for me - I find that the gun is going to knock me around regardless of what I am wearing. Padding will prevent bruises and torn skin, but the totality of recoil still snaps my head back and gives me a headache and makes me worry about my retinae. I suppose the Lead Sleds and similar will take the punch out of it, but then I wonder if the stock will hold up.

On the whole I expect I am just too old for such pursuits. If I ever do decide to go to Africa I am going to take Terry Wieland's advice and practice mostly with low recoil loads, and avoid the bench entirely!

 

[edwardware]

. . . I find that the gun is going to knock me around regardless of what I am wearing. Padding will prevent bruises and torn skin, but the totality of recoil still snaps my head back and gives me a headache and makes me worry about my retinae.

I'm not an expert (hence this thread), but in my experience the head/neck insult is extremely depend on posture. My first range trip I used my usual stool (partially laid down on the bench) and the gun about kicked my shoulders out from under my head. My neck hurt for a week.

I stole a short stool from the pistol range so I'm sitting upright, with elbows still on the bench; it's much like standing up from the waist up. The headsnap, cheekbone impact, and neck ache are gone. The bruised shoulder remains, but I'm young yet.