MARSOC approves the Glock 19

[tarosean]

Why? They haven't stopped using their 1911s or adopted the Glock. They've merely authorized their high speed guys to use it officially.

Why is this fact lost on the posters here??????????????????????????????????

 

[2wheels]

Why is this fact lost on the posters here??????????????????????????????????

Can't pass up a chance to bash the 1911?

 

[Nom de Forum]

Why is this fact lost on the posters here??????????????????????????????????

It is not. The topic of conversation has been expanded not misunderstood.

 

[Theohazard]

Has the Marine Corps turned into a prep school for girls?

Do they get to vote now on which weapons they use?

If they can't master one type of pistol do they get a second or third choice?

The answers to those questions are no, no, and no. Like several others have pointed out, the G19 has simply been added to the list of weapons authorized for use by MARSOC.

We're not talking about the entire Marine Corps here, just one group of special operators. And, like other special ops groups, MARSOC has a lot of leeway in what weapons they use, unlike the Marine Corps as a whole.

For those of us who got out of the Marine Corps before 9/11, this might seem weird, but that's because back then there were no true special ops units in the Marine Corps like in the other services, and that's because we never had any Marines under SOCOM and MARSOC didn't exist.

 

[sgt127]

A very good friend of mine is Army Special Forces. He's a Green Beret. He's been over three times. They were all issued Beretta's. according to him, a very decent gun that will break if you shoot it a lot. Like, really alot.

One day, a pallet of Glock 19's showed up. Everybody dumped the Berettas and grabbed a Glock.

Now, as his full time job, he carries a Glock 22, as do I, as Police Officers. So, he may be a little biased and prefers the Glock. But, apparently, the Glock 19 is very popular with SF teams and has been for quite awhile.

I was never enamorred with Glocks. I had to stop carrying a Wilson Master Grade .45 when we went to issued guns. But, I have to admit, they work. They work very well. They are easy to fix if they do break, but, they don't break very often.

For the weight, durability, capacity, reliability ratio, its a good service gun.

 

[jaysouth]

Interoperability

I waited until now to post because it took me a while to figure how to spell this word with too many syllabils for simple minds.

The USMC SOC unit is plugged wholly or in piecemeal into other JSOC units on a regular basis.(JSOC is an Army command). The Glock is a natural for all the elements because some of the components have Glocks as their primary issue and are also widely used by foreign forces we are training.

My son-in-law was in a unit at Ft. Bragg that gave up their well worn M-9s for operators and replaced them with Glock 19s. Familiarization was a five minute class from the team's senior weapons NCO. That was several years ago and there has not been a complaint or incident. The Glocks are carried in a kydex holster on the vest or in a SERPA on the belt. Mag pounches were procured locally in both 2 and 4 mag versions. Each pistol was issued with 5 standard mags and factory plastic sights.

I can see why the SOC Marines would want to have access to Glocks in 9mm.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Crash helmet & mouth guard....

I've learned over the years, if you post a forum topic on a gun or tactics message board, be ready for the posts to bounce and roll all over, .

As posted, MARSOC(Marine Raiders) just want a alternative choice or a compact pistol to tote in addition to the M45(Colt 1911), SIGs, M9s, etc.
I don't know much about these new MARSOC units but it seems odd to me they are now doing cadre/training ops. That seems better suited for ODAs(Army SOFs) or maybe SEALs.
For the US Special Operations Command to fund pallets or cases of NIB Glock 19s in 9mm makes sense. They can be used in denied areas or left with indigenous(friendly) forces if the USMC or SOF units want to boogie out.

 

[george burns]

I think it's the most popular gun ever made. It's compact, lightweight, shoots well, holds 15+1 rounds and has few parts that will ever break, what's not to like.

 

[USAav8r]

As others have said, the point has been missed. The G19 is just an additional authorized weapon. About 25% of the MARSOC team I worked with carried those long before the authorization came out.

Rusty. Every special ops group, force, team, gaggle you have heard of are now training instead of doing their intended jobs. It's a matter of politics. The same reason we hire a $100k+ contractor to do a given job, send the soldier home who's MOS is that job (he of course still gets paid), and then say it's to "save money". It's just a coincidence that the politicians can then trumpet that we only have X number of troops down range. <last line is sarcastic

 

[X-Rap]

I personally can't understand why it isn't approved through all branches. The 9mm is here to stay being the NATO pistol round so why shouldn't the US Military approve the most prolific 9mm out there? What additional testing can they do?
It's light, as small or smaller than any other double stack 9mm, can be rebuilt/repaired by the user in the field and it's cheap to buy and maintain not to mention reliable and more than accurate enough for a combat handgun.
Sure people say Glock gave them away to flood the LE market but if they couldn't live up to their claims they would have passed long ago and their popularity across the full spectrum of shooters wouldn't be as it is today.
I like Glocks, that's what sets beside me as I type and for all the reasons I've stated, I also have a representative number of other popular service weapons so I have put some thought and time in making my conclusions.

 

[Spats McGee]

Somewhere in all of my internet reading on this, I came across this: http://soldiersystems.net/2015/02/17/marsoc-authorized-to-use-glock-19s/

I don't know how much value this source has, but from it:

[The Glock 19] has been used by SOF units for some time and MARSOC has been working diligently with their parent service to officially authorize its use during annual quals.

If that's the case, that SOF units have been using the G19 "for some time," it's possible that someone in command finally came to the following conclusion: "Oh, hell. It's what the SF guys are using, anyway. We might as well authorize it." If pictures of SF soldiers using "unauthorized weapons" get out, someone will undoubtedly begin to question what other unauthorized actions the SF guys are taking.

 

[RustyShackelford]

US Navy & USMC....

The US Navy and later the USMC have historically been the last ones to get fully into SOF(military special operations).
In the mid 1990s, I knew a former NG infantry officer with a masters degree in history who explained to me how when SOCCOM was first set up under President Reagan in 1983, the DoD & JCS(Joint Chiefs of Staff) ordered all the branches to go to MacDill AFB in Tampa FL to set up the new command.
The US Army and USAF sent a few generals, the US Navy sent one Captain(06) & the Marines sent no one.
This was the start of our "joint" special ops .

In the post 9/11/2001 era many things have changed. The USAF established counter terrorist units and special tactics. The US Navy nearly doubled the # of SEALs & SWCC members. They also refined the selection/BUD-S process & made special operations a career field/rating. The US Army made special operations a formal MOS in the late 1980s.
The Marines who always considered all troops "special" finally set up MARSOC(Marine Raiders) in the mid 2000s. They wanted the $$$ and support.
Counter terror ops and missions were so extended too the other branches needed the USMC to get into the system & help out.

 

[45auto]

I don't think the "point" has been missed by many posters.

Wait a couple more years and the majority will be using the Glock 19.
The 1911 will be "authorized", and part of the "tool chest" as we often hear, which will make the 1911 users feel better. But, it's lack of improvement over the years will kill it for all but civilian/range use. There are more reliable guns out there now.

Nothing wrong with that. There is no single 1911 "company" or "guy" to complain to or about. Just a collection of smaller companies "copying" the same design, trying to reach a price point.

Times change.

 

[Rinspeed]

Why is this fact lost on the posters here????????

This thread seems to be a bit of a train wreck on many levels.

 

[herrwalther]

Wait a couple more years and the majority will be using the Glock 19.
The 1911 will be "authorized", and part of the "tool chest" as we often hear, which will make the 1911 users feel better. But, it's lack of improvement over the years will kill it for all but civilian/range use. There are more reliable guns out there now.

I seriously doubt it. I have seen Glocks malfunction. I have seen Glocks break. Glock has been around for about 30 years now. If they were as flawless and perfect as the company claims, there would be more in service with more militaries. Which has not happened. Small orders such as this are not going to be the landslide into Glocks where DOD buys 500K of them to cover all the branches.

 

[dogtown tom]

herrwalther ..... I have seen Glocks malfunction. I have seen Glocks break.

I've sent 1911's back to the manufacturer for warranty issues at a rate fifty times higher than Glocks. 99% of Glock issues are a five minute fix. 99% of 1911's are not.

Glock has been around for about 30 years now. If they were as flawless and perfect as the company claims,

Flawless and perfect enough that the FBI, ATF and thousands of other Federal, state and local LE departments carry them. Heck, the FBI has issued Glocks far longer than any other handgun in their history. (there is a reason for that)
Glock has a near chokehold on LE sales in the US.

there would be more in service with more militaries. Which has not happened.

Seriously?How many militaries do you think currently issue a 1911?
Seems you missed the news in 2013 about the UK adopting the G17gen4, not to mention an inability to Google the issue handgun of dozens of militaries.

Small orders such as this are not going to be the landslide into Glocks where DOD buys 500K of them to cover all the branches.

Glock stands a better chance to land a 500k order than any 1911 does.

 

[kokapelli]

Very good points.

 

[Nom de Forum]

......there would be more in service with more militaries. Which has not happened.

Yadda, Yadda, Yadda, with so many Glocks used by so many countries if Glocks were The Plague they would be called the Black Death.

Small orders such as this are not going to be the landslide into Glocks where DOD buys 500K of them to cover all the branches.

More likely they could be the snowball that causes an avalanche.

 

[RustyShackelford]

America's Gun?.....

Isn't the Glock America's Gun?
In my humble opine, Gaston Glock was brilliant.

He R&Ded a handgun with simple parts and tooling that was not designed to win any beauty pagents or drill 1" holes 100 yards away.

Glocks are made for rough use and to be quickly serviced in the field.

 

[tipoc]

Let's look at the original article that began this discussion here and on other forums...

In a Marine Corps first, the service recently added a Glock pistol to its list of authorized individual weapons, optics and modular attachments.

However, the 9mm semi-automatic Glock 19 pistol is officially approved for use only by personnel assigned to Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command, according to a force-wide message issued in mid-February. In fact, the pistol will carry a non-Marine inventory number because it is a U.S. Special Operations Command asset, according to the message.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/sto...stols-approved-for-marsoc-operators/23548847/

We also see here...

It is unclear why the pistols were only now approved for MARSOC. Marine Corps officials could not immediately address questions from Marine Corps Times.

Marine operators have at times used 9mm Beretta M9 or M9A1 pistols, but more often the service's .45-caliber M45A1 Close Quarter Battle Pistol which is based on the iconic M1911 platform.

Army special forces have often used Glock pistols while training foreign police and military personnel. Iraq, for example, purchased more than 100,000 G19s for issue to their security forces. It was considered best practice for U.S. instructors to use the same firearm as their students.

MARSOC was organised in 2006 and replaced MEUSOC. MARSOC follows the practice of issuing the 1911 as the standard sidearm of that branch. It long ago ran out of the older Colt parts for the gun and continuously rebuilt their guns at their facility in Quantico. They ordered parts for them and did make orders for new guns from Springfield, for reasons I don't know they did not order more from Springfield. In 2012 they did order some 10,000 new guns from Colt and continue to receive those with the option for more.

The rest of the Corp uses the M9.

The Glocks join Sigs and a few other guns as options.

A useful option as many of the Glocks issued to Iraqi forces were abandoned as ISIS approched and ISIS now uses them.

Glocks are not replacing the Colt CQB gun for MARSOC they are officially added as a tool.

tipoc

 

[tipoc]

By the way when you read this article...

http://www.military.com/daily-news/...perators-to-choose-glocks-over-marsoc-45.html

It kinda answers the question, "What is Brian Williams doing today?"

The idea that Marines of MARSOC are flummoxed by the "hard to use" 1911 is pretty funny.

tipoc

 

[agtman]

The idea that Marines of MARSOC are flummoxed by the "hard to use" 1911 is pretty funny.

And sadly stupid as well.

It's similarly to saying that our freedom-fighting Marines would be "overburdened" by having to carry both their M16s and a 40+ ounce .45 1911 ...

You know, like the average Marine grunt is somehow physically equivalent to a junior-varsity female softball player.

Don't think so ...

Colt M45A1.

 

[herrwalther]

I've sent 1911's back to the manufacturer for warranty issues at a rate fifty times higher than Glocks. 99% of Glock issues are a five minute fix. 99% of 1911's are not.

I am well aware that I have seen more issues with Glock than most. Glock virtually GIVES law enforcement guns to use. Just so they can spurn civilian and potential military sales by saying "Hey look! 65% (down from roughly 80%) of law enforcement uses us." Free guns does not always mean they are better.

Seriously?How many militaries do you think currently issue a 1911?
Seems you missed the news in 2013 about the UK adopting the G17gen4, not to mention an inability to Google the issue handgun of dozens of militaries.

The British military is not the workhorse they think they are. Most Brits I saw overseas that actually went off the base used Sig 226s. As far as other militaries, which ones are you focusing on? Austria? Bangladesh? Finland? Latvia? Tons of 1st world militaries with high operational tempos.

The 1911 is probably not going to see wide service in the US Military again. It takes far too much money per unit to keep them reliable. Glocks may be accepted or maybe the M&P or maybe even something from FN. It all depends on the criteria the DOD places on the next round of selection. I am not a Glock hater, I see the utility of them, and may even purchase one eventually. I just don't drink the Kool-aid.

 

[Theohazard]

MARSOC was organised in 2006 and replaced MEUSOC.

Wait, what? That's not even remotely correct. MARSOC didn't directly replace anybody, they were created as the Marine Corps' addition to SOCOM. (Edited to clarify: I'm objecting to the assertion that they replaced a MEU(SOC), not that they were created in 2006.)

And even if they had replaced someone, it wouldn't have been a MEU(SOC) because that's a completely different concept. A MEU(SOC) -- Marine Expeditionary Unit (Special Operations Capable) -- is basically a temporary amalgamation of various different air, ground, and amphibious units that deploy together; they're all combined to form the Marine Corps' smallest air-ground task force.

A reinforced infantry battalion is added to various other support groups, they train for about 6 months, get their Special Operations Capable certification, then deploy on several Navy ships for six months or more as needed. Then when they return stateside, all but the MEU command element are disbanded and re-join their normal units.

I was in an infantry company in 2/2, I did two MEU(SOC) deployments, first in 1998 with the 22nd MEU, and then in 2000 with the 26th MEU. For special operations, we had Battalion Recon, Force Recon, and Navy SEALs attached to us. We were the Zodiac boat raid company and we could even perform our own beach reconnaissance if needed. MARSOC didn't replace any MEU(SOC)s, they fill a completely different role. In fact, MARSOC Marines are often attached to a MEU(SOC) to aid in their special operations.

Here's a good explanation of a MEU:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_expeditionary_unit

And this is about MARSOC:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps_Forces_Special_Operations_Command

From that article: "The first Marine Special Operations Company was stood up in June 2006, shortly after the creation of MARSOC. It was deployed supporting the Global War on Terrorism in December 2013 alongside the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit (Special Operations Capable) where they conducted various special operations missions, ranging from Direct action (military), reconnaissance and other mission sets."

 

[tipoc]

Thanks, I was unclear on that so thanks for clarifying.

Its creation (MARSOC) was announced on 23 November 2005 by US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, following a meeting between him, the USSOCOM commander General Bryan D. Brown, and the Marine Corps Commandant General Michael Hagee on 28 October 2005. MARSOC was officially activated on 24 February 2006 with ceremonies at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina.

But on the guns...

The articles here take a look at the use and rebuilding of the older Colt frames with select parts by the Marines, their use of both Kimber and Springfield guns and their selection of the Colt CQBP in 2012.

Hopefully they can expel a few myths.

Features: This weapon is a modified M1911A1 .45 caliber pistol sometimes referred to as “near match” or “combat accuratized.” The MEU(SOC) Pistol is the designated “backup weapon” of Marines armed with the 9mm MP5-N Close Quarters Battle weapon. The M1911A1 was chosen for this role (and its modifications generated) because of its inherent reliability and lethality, and because the MEU(SOC) modifications make the M1911A1 design more “user friendly.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEU(SOC)_pistol

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/meu_1911.htm

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/meusoc.htm

tipoc