Mass shootings

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That's where they end up after prison. We know that there are no jobs even for degree holding non criminals. Kids are getting out with Masters Degrees and working flipping burgers just to pay back student loans,
Meanwhile that Republican who got beat in the election last night, was trying to make the children of illegal immigrants citizens of the U.S.
And he wonders why he got clobbered, people have just about had it with these morons in Congress and the Senate.
I think in our lifetime we will see some kind of social revolution. Between Gun laws, immigration, and lack of producing anything, we are becoming equal to the 3d world workers instead of the other way around.
When Obama leaves, nothing will change but the names, unless we throw them all out and restart.
 
It's also where a lot of the mentally unstable homeless go before prison. Since there are no alternatives. Shelters have too many rules and too many people in close proximity for many to establish a comfort zone. On the streets, they can stake out and defend their own space, which is what gets a lot of them in prison.
 
I feel something must be done, even if its not the best solution for a simple reason. Sometimes we do less than stellar things for good reasons. Allowing involuntary committing for say a month if someone is reported (by someone close to them) as being dangerous so they can be monitored. If it IS found they are dangerous off their meds and refuse to take them forcibly medicate them. Release them when they can medicate themselves, or after a set period of time. Keep tabs on them, maybe a check in by a mental health care professional every other week. Kind of like house arrest or parole to make sure they continue taking their meds. Its not a pretty solution but its better than letting the anti's come up with something that does real damage.

We are trying to reduce the damage on more than just one front. We have to prevent an attack on our rights and limit the death toll. Yes we may step on some toes and have to do things we would rather not buts its better than doing nothing and letting real damage be done.
 
They need to use their brains here and invent a longer acting "time release" drug, mayb like a morphine pump or once a month time release pill that they would have to go to a clinic and get administered to them, much like junkies get Methadone. They can also make it addicting like methadone, so they have to have it. That would stop a great deal of this.
 
Zumudio (along with Maisch, Salzgeber, and Badler) did stop a killer! Zumudio's gun was not the right tool for the job and never left his pocket but had he arrived moments earlier it likely would have been.

Mike

No sir. Loughner was down and DISARMED before Zamudio arrived. By his own words, Zamudio noted that he almost shot the wrong person.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41018893/...ords-hero-nearly-shot-wrong-man/#.U5jWNU4o6M8

"I came out of that store, I clicked the safety off, and I was ready," he explained on Fox and Friends. "I had my hand on my gun. I had it in my jacket pocket here. And I came around the corner like this." Zamudio demonstrated how his shooting hand was wrapped around the weapon, poised to draw and fire. As he rounded the corner, he saw a man holding a gun. "And that's who I at first thought was the shooter," Zamudio recalled. "I told him to 'Drop it, drop it!'"

But the man with the gun wasn't the shooter. He had wrested the gun away from the shooter. "Had you shot that guy, it would have been a big, fat mess," the interviewer pointed out.

No, Zamudio didn't stop Loughner. Once he realized that the man with the gun wasn't the bad guy, the man he was ready to shoot, safety off and yelling commands to DROP IT, Zamudio did go to ground and help hold down Loughner who was already being held down by two people.

Here is a video of Joe explaining himself. He definitely identified the WRONG person as the shooter and opted to hands on instead of shooting...the WRONG person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFocAUqyGzY

Zamudio certainly thought about shooting him...http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/14/armed-bystander-shot-hero-disarmed-az-shooter/

“I would have shot the man holding the gun,” he added.

“You would have used that firearm,” Schultz pressed.

“You’re damn right,” Zamudio said.

And in the link to the Ed Show on the page of the quote, Zamudio explains that people were holding down Loughner and that he wasn't trying that hard to squirm and he helped hold him down.

No, Joe Zamudio didn't stop Loughner. He showed up late, AFTER the shooting was done, AFTER Loughner was down, AFTER Loughner was pinned, AFTER Loughner was disarmed.

Zamudio helped hold him down after basically assaulting the wrong person.
 
I feel something must be done, even if its not the best solution for a simple reason. Sometimes we do less than stellar things for good reasons. Allowing involuntary committing for say a month if someone is reported (by someone close to them) as being dangerous so they can be monitored. If it IS found they are dangerous off their meds and refuse to take them forcibly medicate them. Release them when they can medicate themselves, or after a set period of time. Keep tabs on them, maybe a check in by a mental health care professional every other week. Kind of like house arrest or parole to make sure they continue taking their meds. Its not a pretty solution but its better than letting the anti's come up with something that does real damage.



We are trying to reduce the damage on more than just one front. We have to prevent an attack on our rights and limit the death toll. Yes we may step on some toes and have to do things we would rather not buts its better than doing nothing and letting real damage be done.




I disagree. The Second Amendment is important to me. But I am not prepared to sacrifice the rest of the Constitution to appease 2nd Amendment opponents, who, in any event will not be appeased. They want guns out of civilian hands. Period. School/Mass shootings are the latest vehicle through which they pursue this objective. They cannot be appeased with 'alternative solutions'.

Furthermore, the Second Amendment is the ultimate guarantor of liberty, not the only guarantor. Allowing the government the power of preventive incarceration for potential "mental health crimes" is a far greater assault on and threat to liberty than an 'assault weapons' ban.

Forget the likelihood of political abuse. Just think of how many completely innocent people would have their lives destroyed by such a system. Imagine an employer faced with a potential whistle blower. Call the cops and fabricate tails of his violent anti-social comments round the water cooler, get IT to plant some links to bomb-making sites on his computer, forge a couple of email rants. Problem solved. Jealous wife thinks hubby's been off the reservation? Same thing. Neighbor's really annoying? Stitch him up for thought crime.

A legal system designed to punish perpetrators of crimes cannot effectively be used to treat mental illness. And I will no more stand for a country in which people can be deprived of their liberty for what they may think or for opinions they hold, however objectionable, than I will for one in which my other constitutional rights are abused and ignored.

We have a process for mental adjudication now. If found mentally incompetent, you are stripped of many rights, including the right to purchase, keep, and bear arms. These people who, after the fact, say "but we told the police he was a danger" are lazy and guilty of inaction. The police acted within the law, thank God. It was the responsibility of friends, family, school officials and mental health professionals to pursue the judiciary process of adjudication. That they did not makes them accomplices de facto if not de jure.

If the current laws were used, if all states reported mental adjudications to NICS in a timely manner, we would substantially diminish access to legal firearms by these mass shooters. As for illegal access to firearms, access to edged weapons, access to improvised explosives, I have no simple solution. "Lock up all the 'crazy' people" however is not a solution.
 
Then you need to lock up a few parents. If they hadn't made it so easy for their kids to get their guns we would have a lot less to talk about. When you own guns, you have a responsibility to keep them secured.
 
I feel something must be done, even if its not the best solution for a simple reason. Sometimes we do less than stellar things for good reasons. Allowing involuntary committing for say a month if someone is reported (by someone close to them) as being dangerous so they can be monitored.
The "do something even if it's wrong" mentality is what got us where we are today.

There are two things we should note before we run off with our hair on fire.

First of all, in a nation of over 300 MILLION people, these incidents are quite small. If we're going to jump through our apex over shootings, let's concentrate on the SERIOUS problem, like gang warfare.

Secondly, these shootings always occur in GUN FREE ZONES. Those gun free zones were created by the "do something even if it's wrong" mentality. Let's fix that -- and in the process restore Constitutional rights.
 
The masses, with their American egos that think the world revolves around them, think public violence is a United States problem... but it happens everywhere, sometimes much worse than here.

[YOUTUBE]csr9TPGPoxs[/YOUTUBE]

Notable quote at about the 2:30 mark:

"Relatives, many of them armed, mingled with the troops and ran towards the buildings."
 
No sir. Loughner was down and DISARMED before Zamudio arrived. By his own words, Zamudio noted that he almost shot the wrong person.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41018893/...ords-hero-nearly-shot-wrong-man/#.U5jWNU4o6M8



No, Zamudio didn't stop Loughner. Once he realized that the man with the gun wasn't the bad guy, the man he was ready to shoot, safety off and yelling commands to DROP IT, Zamudio did go to ground and help hold down Loughner who was already being held down by two people.

Here is a video of Joe explaining himself. He definitely identified the WRONG person as the shooter and opted to hands on instead of shooting...the WRONG person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFocAUqyGzY

Zamudio certainly thought about shooting him...http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/14/armed-bystander-shot-hero-disarmed-az-shooter/



And in the link to the Ed Show on the page of the quote, Zamudio explains that people were holding down Loughner and that he wasn't trying that hard to squirm and he helped hold him down.

No, Joe Zamudio didn't stop Loughner. He showed up late, AFTER the shooting was done, AFTER Loughner was down, AFTER Loughner was pinned, AFTER Loughner was disarmed.

Zamudio helped hold him down after basically assaulting the wrong person.
I politely beg to differ.

The gun never left his pocket. "Almost shot" is a bad choice of words on his part and something that the antis have exploited with glee.

The situation was dynamic not static as situations often are (and grappling situations almost always are). Zumudio says the man with the gun was Sulzgeber who had just disarmed the shooter and not yet grappled with him. The misunderstanding was very short and Zumudio says he then asked Sulzgeber to stand on the gun and it was after that that Sulzgeber started to help Badger hold him down. At that point the only person holding the shooter was Badger (a 74 year old man with a gunshot wound to the head). It was after standing on the gun that Sulzgeber helped Badger hold him down. Them Maisch laid on his legs. This was all after Zumudio arrived. Zumudio says the shooter started to struggle even harder after Maisch laid on his legs and she lost her hold and he took Maisch's place at her request. Finally a 4th man stood on the shooter's back.

I repeat, when Zumudio arrived the shooter was only being held by a 74-year old man who himself has a gunshot would to the head.

Mike
 
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LOL, Zamudio did assault the wrong person who had secured Loughner's gun until Zamudio forced him to drop it. The shooting was stopped. Zamudio did not stop Loughner.

Zamudio's own words were that PEOPLE had Lougner, not a single person, but People. Maybe you didn't see the link above for the Ed Show where Loughner explained that coming out of the Walgreens, he saw SEVERAL individuals wrestling with Loughner, then he went after the guy with the gun who had secured it from Loughner.

After forcing the guy to drop the gun, according to Zamudio, people were saying it was the other guy and Zamudio says that he helped hold him down.

Those were Zamudio's own words.

He didn't stop the shooter. The shooter was stopped. He just kept him down.

However, since you make the point that Zamudio didn't almost shoot the wrong guy, it is also painfully clear that Zamudio being armed didn't matter one iota in the situation. It did not affect the outcome.
 
Sorry to say - that in a few cases parents have been lax. The Columbine parents were certainly clueless.

Kip Kinkel's parents supposedly bought him the weapon that killed them and was used in the massacre as they thought if they didn't buy him a gun, he would just get one anyway.

Some have broken into to secure storage - that was the case at Jonesboro. That is arguably not the relatives' fault.
 
LOL, Zamudio did assault the wrong person who had secured Loughner's gun until Zamudio forced him to drop it. The shooting was stopped. Zamudio did not stop Loughner.

Zamudio's own words were that PEOPLE had Lougner, not a single person, but People. Maybe you didn't see the link above for the Ed Show where Loughner explained that coming out of the Walgreens, he saw SEVERAL individuals wrestling with Loughner, then he went after the guy with the gun who had secured it from Loughner.

After forcing the guy to drop the gun, according to Zamudio, people were saying it was the other guy and Zamudio says that he helped hold him down.

Those were Zamudio's own words.

He didn't stop the shooter. The shooter was stopped. He just kept him down.

However, since you make the point that Zamudio didn't almost shoot the wrong guy, it is also painfully clear that Zamudio being armed didn't matter one iota in the situation. It did not affect the outcome.
LOL???

You can find Zambio's detailed account he gave at a Massad Ayoob seminar here: http://americanhandgunner.com/the-tucson-atrocity-joe-zamudios-story/

As far as his brief encounter with Sulzgeber he describes it this way:"I immediately grabbed him by the wrist, turned the gun in toward him, told him to drop the weapon. He did. Even as he was dropping the gun, everyone yelled, 'It’s not him, it’s not him!'"

Mike
 
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Many of these recent, so-called mass shootings, mass killings don't really meet the traditional threshold or definition of a mass killing. 3 shot and 3 stabbed-- is that a mass shooting?

I agree, They are not.

There are other issues that make the situation look worse, primarily the media and also the publics over-reaction to such events. SH was bad, but 2 or 3 people shot in a mall or school is by no means a massacre.

IMO the American media (and consequently the public) is obssesed and focus way too much on these shootings.

Maybe one one guy getting shot by multiple people is a massacre too??? Oh the media...
 
Sorta funny the press will pick up a mass shooting and run with it but an honest to god CCW story where the conceal carry guy saves people or his family is ignored every single time...And believe me there are LOTS of them!...Freedom of speech only works if everything gets reported...Not just the part you feel like reporting.
 
At times like this I am reminded of my daughter's essay. I still post it up and ask anti-gunners to reply to my little girl's question. So far I just get banned as does she.

Name
Homeroom
Gun Control’s Ill Effects and Imminent Failure
28 January 2013

Have you ever asked me what my father and I do on the weekends? We shoot. Rifles, bows, and even our muzzleloaders, they all are fun to shoot and to hunt with. You should try it sometime.

Recently there has been a lot of discussion about the Second Amendment and what it should or should not allow. These discussions have been focused on the semiautomatic class of weaponry more commonly called by liberal mass media “assault weapons.” There have been discussions on how many bullets a person should be able to load at once, what the weapons people buy should look like, and even what new rules can be imposed upon those who, like me, enjoy shooting my rifles legally and safely. If I had not been barred from this type of research on school computers, I would have needed only a few moments to prove the foolishness of any action against the Second Amendment.

My family is a firm believer in the right to bear arms as the Second Amendment protects the rest of our rights. I inherited that belief honestly and so I stand firm in my belief that the right to bear arms should never be infringed. I wish to simply present some points for those who wish to strip lawful citizens of their right to bear arms to consider. I will be proving that banning "assault weapons" is foolish. There is no sense in increasing ineffective firearm regulations. I will explain how so called “Gun Free Zones” are killing Americans more than the magazine capacity of a weapon. I will let you know why we will never be registering our firearms, and why we are against background checks on private sales. I am to the point so forgive me, but it is only the truth.

Banning "assault weapons" is foolish. The total number of murders committed with all rifles total is less than that of many other instruments. Blunt objects are more commonly used as murder weapons. In fact, several states report no rifles used in homicides in 2010. The state with the most murders committed by rifles is actually California, which has an Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) in place already. That alone proves the uselessness of such a law. Connecticut, it might be worth pointing out, had an AWB in place, and it failed to prevent the tragedy in Newtown. You might also wish to note that you are many times as likely to die today in a car accident than in this whole year by a gun of any kind.

Increasing firearm regulations is also ineffective. The states with the strictest restrictions on firearms are also the ones in which most of the murders occurs. If this is looked at at the local level, those areas with the strictest laws are the most crime prone areas in the country. This can be seen in Detroit, Chicago, New York City, and many other areas. I would think that trying such a failed tactic would seem doomed to fail on a national level. Meanwhile in Kennesaw, Georgia every household is required to own a firearm and crime dropped 89% after passing the law. The crime rate remains lower than any other city of its size in the nation.

“Gun Free Zones” are killing Americans. My father is a Marine, sworn by Honor to defend those who cannot defend themselves. Yet, he has been stripped of that right in his own nation for his own children, for me right here, right now. I hate to think that this is true, but it is. If you look at the shootings the government is so focused on, every single one since 1950 has occurred in a place where firearms are barred. Meanwhile, there are many stories that are not drawing attention that show that having firearms present in such situations actually saves lives. I would feel much better about my brother, sister, and I attending a school where teachers are allowed to protect them properly than us being easy victims of an evil man.

Magazine capacity has little or nothing to do with lethality. I tested this myself. My father can change a magazine in his personal AR 15 in less than one second. Being that he is trained as a Marine, I asked my eleven year old sister to try it. After two tries she could consistently reload in less than two seconds. I can do it in one second myself. I can tell you that that will not save lives. Also consider that if you ban them, who will have them? The criminal element the government is trying to protect us against. They again will fail. It only limits our rights as lawful gun owners.

Registering every firearm is not likely to succeed and will be resisted by many. We will not register our rightfully owned firearms on a list that could be later used to confiscate them. There is no nation that has registered firearms and not later confiscated most or all of them. In all of those countries, the strong soon after preys upon the weak. This can be seen in the per capita crime rate in Great Britain and Australia. It can be seen melodramatically in the former Soviet Union, last century Germany, and early 20th century Turkey. I could find no nation that successfully registered firearms without a seizure and then a drastic increase in violent crimes.

Background checks on private sales will accomplish nothing as well. Many of the firearms used in crime are stolen. Those bought lawfully are by and large used that way. It is a near impossible law to enforce without registration, and would save no lives. Regulating the rifles my father has purchased for my sister and I would not stop anyone from stealing them and performing horrible acts with them.

I hate to repeat cliché terms, but the Second Amendment protects the rest of our rights. Without it we have no others. There is a direct line between that amendment and our freedom as citizens of a free nation. One of the hallmarks of the United States has always been that the people are stronger than the government. That is in place for a reason and should never be tampered with. It is the same reason that our nation still stands despite hardships that have broken other nations. This one right gives us all the power to keep things that way. Without it we become subjects rather than citizens.

If you wish to know what I would suggest, it would be simple. Leave us alone. Lawful gun owners cause no problems and save lives that are not tracked on many occasions. We are most often able to take care of ourselves. It is not us who ask for government help, but instead are always willing to offer it to anyone who may need it. We enjoy our sport shooting, hunting, and our right to self defense. We cause little trouble unless it is brought to us, and are in general the most patriotic of citizens. We need less interference rather than more.

Another idea would be to ask the media to not release the name(s) of any shooter involved with a mass shooting. They want fame and denying them that would go farther than anything shy of getting rid of “gun free zones” in reducing the occurrence of these heinous crimes. Denying these evil people the availability of easy victims like we are right now, and the fame they seek from their act would be the greatest deterrents I could imagine.

I believe in the Second Amendment even more than any other of the rights we enjoy. I simply want a life where I can enjoy those freedoms promised to me by my country. The right to bear arms guarantees that. As I have proven, no law can add such a guarantee, and in fact, undermines my freedom and safety, by infringing upon that right. You cannot regulate away crime by regulating weapons. You cannot expect more regulations to do anything other than make the problem worse. I want to end by asking a simple question: What does anyone stand to gain by stripping me my rights because of a wrong I did not commit?
 
IMO the American media (and consequently the public) is obssesed and focus way too much on these shootings.

Hmm, I wonder if we can exploit their fixation to humiliate them, as happened to CNN with their (literally) 7 week back-to-back-to-back coverage of The Hardy Boys and the Mystery of Flight MH370. Pretty much everyone admits it was flagrantly embarrassing, and supposedly the execs took that to heart.

Presented the correct way, I think a rejection of 'horror-porn' (hint: don't call it that while presenting it the 'correct way' ;)) is something the proletariat could actually get behind, or at least a brief respite. Just need some focused lobbying in the right spots to condemn the most influential & embarrassing over-coverage of these events, and I imagine it may settle back down.

One more thing that may be worth mentioning; it's useful to see what is bumped for coverage when the media fixates like this, as there's usually some media-control going on to divert attention away from something important. There have a been an absolute string of fubar's stemming from our federal level of government on all fronts lately, and corporate media is always hesitant to protest too hard about their handlers; thus we see editors' preference for anything --anything, that isn't whipping up more outrage at government institutions (and instead directs it toward each other or imaginary foes)

TCB
 
Its not a pretty solution but its better than letting the anti's come up with something that does real damage

There is nothing we can propose that will prevent the anti's from seeking to do real damage. Nothing. The only measure where we would have their support would be the outlawing of all firearms for any purpose, and the universal surrendering of such. That's it. Until then, there is no anti measure they will not seek to expand.
 
1) one cannot make the world "safe" by legislation

2) granting that government which lies, and covers up its lies, about its inability to provide decent medical care for our veterans and which uses IRS agents to enforce health policy, wider authority to incarcerate people based on the government's interpretation of mental or behavioral health standards is, in a word, insane

3) we have a justice system based on the belief that it is better that 10 guilty men go free rather than that one innocent man be unjustly jailed. Why should we risk the unjust Incarceration of one sane man so that liberals can feel more comfortable about packing their kids off to college?

4) mass shootings are awful. And yet, far far less deadly than salmonella poisoning. Fewer than 100 people a year are killed in mass shootings. If saving lives is so important, why is anyone who has ever used alcohol allowed to own or operate a vehicle? Prohibiting this would save many more than 100 lives per year and would almost eradicate the leading preventable cause of death among under 14 year olds. And driving is not a constitutionally protected right
Doctors thru mistakes kill over 25000
 
There is nothing we can propose that will prevent the anti's from seeking to do real damage. Nothing. The only measure where we would have their support would be the outlawing of all firearms for any purpose, and the universal surrendering of such. That's it. Until then, there is no anti measure they will not seek to expand.
Here in Arkansas, there was a proposal in the legislature to limit places where people with CHLs can carry. I was discussing that with my State Senator and said, "That's an invitation to a mass murderer."

She blinked a moment and said, "You know, you're right."
 
Just recently in Miami was another mass shooting that most people did not hear about, of which 10 were shot and two of those died. It happened in a non-gun-free zone of an apartment courtyard area. Two gunmen opened up with 50-60 rounds or rifle ammunition (reportedly AK47 and AR15).
http://www.ibtimes.com/miami-shooti...-liberty-city-apartment-complex-video-1609976
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/2-killed-miami-shooting-article-1.1841405
http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/06/24/4197904/miami-police-up-to-10-people-shot.html

Strangely, it was in Miami in another apartment complex where another non-gun-free zone mass shooting occurred.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/neighbors-describe-different-sides-fla-gunman
 
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