MD-surrounding states

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Sheslinger

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Cslinger already mentioned that we will most likely sooner than later be moving towards MD to be closer to family. Since neither one of us wants to actually reside in MD, we are thinking about looking in S. PA, N. VA, DE. So, I had several questions to ask as to where those stand and if any are a lot better than the rest.

1. What is the current RKBA climate? Range availability - outdoor and indoor. Current CCW laws and the direction politicians are taking them. Example: MD sucks but they are trying to pass the shall-issue.

2. Taxes: I am pretty familiar with MD - Federal and State, 5% sales, I heard that PA has way too many (Federal, State, City, County, Sales, Car, etc.). Is that true? What about the others?

3. The usual suspects - crime, schools, housing prices, etc.

I apologize if this is not gun related enough but, believe me, gun laws is one of the reasons we are trying to avoid MD.

Thank you
Sheslinger
 
Hmm, MD is bad on guns, I'll grant that, but we NEED more pro-gun voters (I'm actually wondering if I should bale out or stay as long as I can to help out).

The good, the bad, the ugly on MD:
-Taxes: They aren't too bad (believe it or not). One side likes to say we are among the highest in the country, the other likes to say a little lower than average- and get this, they are both right.:confused: Our state income taxes are indeed among the highest in the country, but our property taxes aren't bad, sales tax is only 5% (with a few, mostly food, exceptions that aren't taxed at all) and we don't have tons of other miscellaneous taxes to nickle and dime you.

-Crime: Crime is fair. In inner-city Baltimore it is among the highest in the nation for violent crime (I think we are number 2 right now and the top five in the US) but we also had the largest drop in the country last year. Outside of Baltimore it isn't too bad, not great, but not bad.

-Schools: Public schools in Montgomery County and Howard County are among the best in the nation. The only drawbacks are having to live in Montgomery or Howard Counties (among the most liberal in the state). Outside of Baltimore City, Maryland schools are generally pretty good. The Baltimore-Washington area has some of the best private schools in the nation.

-Politics: MD politics aren't as liberal as usually assumed. The Baltimore area and Montgomery County are, and they have the bulk of the population so the state leadership is pretty liberal, but many parts of the state are outright conservative locally (heck, even here in Howard County we've been electing our share of Republicans and conservative Democrats the past decade or so).

Housing prices: Baltimore City, Balt. County, and the more rural areas not bad at all. Howard County is getting pricy (older, for Columbia, 20-30 year old standard middle class 4BR homes are now over a quarter million and in the newer areas you will pay that for a townhome or even possibly a condo, for rent you'll be looking at about $700-1000 for a 1BR, $1200+ to rent a 3BR townhouse). Montgomery County, are you a doctor or lawyer? If not, forget about it.

-Economy: It is hard to beat the DC area. Very stable. Many people work for the gov't or for universities and research organizations and these industries are generally recession proof. Also, high-tec is big in northern VA and central MD (Mont County primarily on the Rt. 270 corridor, Columbia in Howard County, and White Marsh in northern Baltimore County).

Guns:
-Handguns: Yuck.

One a month, with two exceptions: fill out an application for collector status, pretty much if you can legally buy a gun you will be accepted for the status, or you can buy two in the same transaction and then you just wait two months instead of one before you can buy again. Seven BUSINESS DAY waiting period. Built-in lock law (meaning, most new guns aren't available, though more and more probably will be in the future as bigger liberal states like NY and CA follow suit). Shell-casing law. Purchases are now registered by the state (but it is "voluntary" so you wouldn't have to register guns you already have).

No CCW, though in the next few years...Hopefully.

Handgun prices are pretty bad.

-Rifles:

We aren't half bad. Prices are pretty much normal, no waiting period, no registration. We are actually fairly Class III friendly here. Unfortunately, "assult rifles" are regulated more or less like pistols.

-Ranges:

From where I live (Columbia) there are four indoor pistol ranges in different directions but all within 15-45min of me. On Target is 10-15min down the road near Ft. Meade. Continental Arms is about 45min away in Timonium. Gilberts is about 45min away in Rockville. SureFire (I think that is the name) is about 30 min away in Glen Burnie.

There is a public rifle range in Westminister (30-40min from me) that is open Wen through Sun. You can shoot pistols but the closest target is at 25 yards on the rifle range. The longest lane is 200yds.

There is a "semi-public" range in Frederick (about 40min from me) that is open Sat (darn) and Sun (woo-hoo) that has both rifle and pistol lanes plus dedicated black powder rifle lanes. The longest is 200yds (I think).

There are numerous clubs (one at Ft.Meade even includes the right to use a 500 or 600 yd Army range once a month), many with their own ranges. There is also a huge range that is used jointly by a dozen or two local clubs.




-Intangibles:
Here in Columbia I am about 2 hours from the beach, 2 hours from the mountains (skiing, camping, fishing), 4 hours from all the tourist sights in NYC, 2 hours from the history at Philidelphia, 4 hours from Williamsburg, Yorktown and Jamestown (incredible for history buffs), I am an hour and a half from Gettysburg, 2-3 from Antetiam (sp?), an hour or so from Bull Run, and within a few hours of several other Civil War sites. The Chesapeake Bay cuts the state in two, so boating, fishing and other recreational activities abound. I have all the advantages of living in one of the biggest official metro areas in the country (the Baltimore-Washington area) and THE biggest unofficial metro area (there really is no break in "civilization" between Boston, MA all the way down to Richmond, VA), yet I am a short drive from several rural areas as well if I want the solitude. People are generally well educated around here, there are more colleges and universities per capita than almost anywhere in the country, and the job market is one of the most stable in the nation. We have some of the best seafood in the country (too bad I can't eat it anymore- shellfish isn't kosher). Annapolis is probably one of the most beautiful cities in the US.


Sheslinger, do I remember hearing somewhere (on this board of course) that you are from the fomer USSR? There is a huge Russian and former USSR population in northern Baltimore County (if that matters to you).

Near, but outside, MD:
Outside of MD the gun laws are much better. You could always get a job in MD and live in southern PA, DE or northern VA depending upon exactly where the job is (you could also send the little tykes to MD private schools if so inclined). I don't know about PA but VA does have a "personal property tax" (you pay a "property tax" on personal property like cars as well as on real property like land). Delaware, while not CCW, isn't bad on guns and I know there is NO sales tax there.
 
Sheslinger

Thus far here we are shall-issue ... pretty gun-friendly. .... good hunting too. CCW is pretty much ''go anywhere'' .. except fed restrictions re schools and court houses.

Taxes .. well, 6% sales tax ..... then school tax, property tax ... etc .. not the best state tax-wise i guess but not the worst either.

Ranges? .... I have a couple local to me . only 100 yd but suits me most of time ... a drive of only 30 miles gives access to much longer for rifle. So ... adequate is maybe the word.

Crime in my area (fairly rural/small town) is low ... mostly petty stuff .... and with CCW as it is .. not too surprising.

Schools .... suffering along with all the rest ..... :(

House prices . tend to geared to employment density ... around my area (Bedford) ..... a little high but plenty of fair deals to be found .... in some other places like Saxton ...... cheaper cos not too much work. usual story I guess.
 
Oh, sheslinger what do you and cslinger do for a living? CCW in MD is out for "just" personal defense, but there are quite a few vocational catagories that may qualify, including a few that you might not think about (pharmacists, doctors).
 
Chaim the range in Glen Burnie is Select Fire, which by the way is a class III dealer and even rents thompsons, stens, etc. Haven't tried them yet but I've been tempted.
 
Chaim pretty much summed it up about as good as you are gonna get.

Although I perfectly understand that you are trying to avoid Maryland, we would love to have you guys here. We need all the help we can get!

By the way, for those of you who have not tried Select Fire yet you should really give it a try. The guys there are pretty nice and although their selection of handguns is no where near that of On Target, they have class 3 (AR 9mm, MP5, Thompson, Sten) stuff to rent. I'm a member there because they are literally 3 minutes away from my house. They let me bring my 10/22 in by myself but I of course need my parents with me for the pistols.

Hopefully by the time I am 21 we will have Shall Issue here!
 
Virginia is pretty gun friendly.

Northern Virginia is a hotbed of bleeding heart liberals, but the tide has been swinging somewhat over the past several years.

Housing prices are currently out of sight, but the job market remains fairly good. Taxes are lower than in Maryland, and sorry Chaim, Maryland's tax structure is pretty high. Got to pay for all those social programs somehow. :)

Range availability is OK, traffic generally stinks, cultural ammenities are GREAT (Smithsonian, Zoo, Wolf Trap, several topnotch universities, etc.)
 
Hi, We live in the Eastern Panhandle of West Virginia ,but both work in Maryland ! But We moved from Western New York ( got tired of the 6 months of snow) so to move to Maryland would have been out of the frying pan back into the frying pan (liberally speaking) LOL LOL . Area is booming . The Wal-mart in Hagerstown ,Md was the highest grossing store for the country with 1.3 Billion $ in sales in the year 2002 ! I'm 2 hours from Philly,Washington ,Baltimore . Lots of history in this area ! Beautiful country ! Just a drive across the Potomac away ! W.V. is gun friendlier tho and probally always will be . >>>>>>>>>>>WVleo
 
Delaware doesnt have any of the Maryland BS with pistols or assault rifles (cash and carry after NICS check), CCW is may-issue (but you can get it once you jump through the hoops and spend the $~500), but IIRC no NFA weapons allowed in private hands (or it might be just no MGs, I dont remember exactly). MD allows ownership of MGs if you pay a $10/yr registration fee (and God help you if you're a day late paying the fee, you'll be all over the 6 o'clock news).

Definitely go for VA or PA if you can.

Kharn
 
South Central PA is great. Gun friendly, reasonably taxes (compared to Wiscnsin), beautiful rural areas, great hunting. Schools are hit or miss, do your research.

I'm an hour north/northeast of downtown Baltimore, @ 1 mile north of the Maon-Dixon line. I need to be close to BWI for travel, so this location gets me access to transport, and let's me lead a pretty private rural life.

I've driven through West Virgina. It's beautiful (roads are great!- thanks to "Sheets"), housing values are sane, and a lot of people are choosing it over MD.

Maryland sucks. Way too much taxation with poor representation. Housing costs are nuts (especially in Columbia! - I moved back east to be near a customer in Columbia, yikes!), crime is bad, gun laws stink, gun availability limited, gun prices high, and traffic drives me nuts. Other than that, it's probably lovely.
 
Mike Irwin summed up Northern Virginia in general, but I thought I'd add more detail...

Taxes:
4.5% sales tax on non-food items and (I believe) 4% on food.
Personal Property tax applies on cars, but the majority of it is paid for you by the state.[0] My truck is subject to $250 or so of tax, but I only have to pay $100 of it. :rolleyes:
There's a state income tax, but no municipal ones that I know of.

Cost of living is very high, but pay is pretty high, too, compared to other areas. You can still find places that are more rural and less suburban, if you're willing to commute a little farther. Prince William County is pretty much a Fairfax County Wannabe, so they've been pushing hard to improve their schools and stuff. They have a new magnet-school program for middle-schoolers, with specialized schools for math/science, languages, and arts.[1]

Crime varies with the neighbourhood; we occasionally get some petty hooliganry out in my part of Manassas, and there've been drug- and gang-related trouble in some of the projects in Manassas Park and Dale City. Nothing you wouldn't expect in the projects.

Open carry is legal in Virginia. Concealed-cary is shall-issue, and you can carry pretty much anywhere except schools and where fedgov restrictions apply. Concealed carry is prohibited in establishments that serve alcohol for on-premises consumption; open carry is OK in those places. :banghead:

Ranges: NRA's indoor range is very nice. 50-yard rifle and pistol (and shotgun, if you're using slugs), anything up to .460 Wby Mag. It has programmable target-carriers, so you can set up the target to only face you for 2 seconds, or to 'run' toward you, and stuff like that. The range officers there have been known to allow someone to stay after closing to play with full-auto, but it's a special thing they do only when they get to know you. Depends on the officer.
Blue Ridge Arsenal is indoor, pistol, pistol-chambered long arms, and rimfire longarms.
Bull Run has an outdoor shotgun range (I'm not a scattergun guy, so that's all I know about it).
Clark Brothers guns (30 minutes southwest toward warrenton) has a covered-lane outdoor range with pistol and rifle lanes. It's free, but you have to buy your ammo from them, and their prices are high. Place gets crowded on weekends.
There's the Fairfax Rod & Gun club right across the street from me in Manassas. I hear it's a lovely outdoor range (I've never been), but it's members only, and you need to sell three or four limbs to afford their fees.

When y'all move to the area, give me a shout. I've been itching to have a sort of "DC-area THR notables" barbecue sort of thing at my place. I have more deck than is really actually sane, so I'm sort of morally obligated to have people over, just to justify the square footage. :D

-BP

[0] No, it doesn't make sense, and if anybody cares, I'll explain it.
[1] My 11-year-old is starting at the Math/Science school this september, which is why I know.
 
chaim,

we are both analysts at an insurance company, i.e. telling other people what to do without any management (HR-type) burdens. I don't think we could get CCW for that but Cslinger does have a C&R and might be able to get CCW "to protect himself while driving with some of his collectables". Not sure.

I am trying to mostly look in N. VA and S. PA. We will go to MD if we have to (jobs). Don't worrry, Marylanders, we'll most likely be close enough to attend the THR shoots in any case.

Thank you, everyone, for your inputs. When this thread dies, I will definitely print it for my records.

Thank you again
Sheslinger
 
How many minutes is an acceptable commute for you? If you think about NoVa, take a careful look at the traffic! You're either going to pay a lot for a house close in to a job or get one for a little less farther out and make up the difference in commuting costs.

There are enough pistol ranges in NoVa, but rifle ranges are a bit harder to come by unless you want to join an exclusive (i.e., expensive) shooting club, be limited to 50 yards indoors at the NRA, or join the Izaak Walton League which runs a 100-yard range in Fairfax. I have to drive about two hours to WV to get to a 200-yard range (Sleepy Creek WMA).

The only thing for which I can heartily recommend NoVa is the VCDL, which is very effective in getting state gun laws moving in a positive direction. The VCDL is located in NoVa and they hold open monthly meetings locally.

County and city taxes get higher the closer you get to DC.

As a resident of NoVa, I reccommend southern PA.

Out of curiosity, what part of MD do you want to be close to?
 
My parents are in Owings Mills, Balto county, and Cslinger's are in Pasadena, Anne Arundel Co.

Commute is an issue, that's why we are trying to look for jobs mainly in PA and VA. We'd rather both work and live in one of those states, it just might be easier to find jobs in MD at this point because of many family/friends referrals.

Sheslinger
 
Virginia's personal property tax, which is a tax on the fair market value of cars, trucks, RVs, motorcycles, boats, and a few other things perhaps, is in LIEU OF a local municipal income tax.

To tell you the truth, I'd really rather pay a 1% local income tax instead of getting socked with a bill every October.

As Broken was saying the state has started picking up a lot of the value of the tax, unless you have a high dollar luxury car.

The tax is one reason why there were a LOT of older cars on the road in Northern Virginia, being driven by relatively wealthy people. I kept a 1991 Plymouth FAR longer than I wanted to.

The current rate in Fairfax County is I believe $4.59 per $100 assessed value, but 70% of that is picked up by the state. I have a 1997 Subaru Outback that I believe cost me right around $200 last year (which includes the cost of the county sticker ($25) saying you've paid the tax.)

There's also a locality tax on prepared (restaurant) foods that can be tacked on over top of the state food tax.


So when is the BBQ at your place, Broken Paw?

Or am I not DC Area THR notable enough to come? :D
 
Yeah, when is that Barbecue. We could drive up stop by for the BBQ, stay at a hotel and head to our folks in MD the next day.

What do you want us to bring? Potato salad, beer, meat, ammo.......what?:D
 
try york county, pa. the housing is lower in price (80-200k), and the crime rate is low, unless you are a puerto rican on a bad drug deal in york city (60k people). most of the county is still county, and the schools are traditional. pa is a "shall issue" state, and a few minutes in the sherrif's office followed by a few days wait is all it takes.
the commute to maryland is interstate 83, but you may find yourself not going down too often. owings mills is about an hour away, and pasedena an hour and a half.
do a search for "york county, pa" and learn a little about the birthplace of a nation. if you get this way, you could come shoot in my front pasture some saturday, and i could introduce you to some of the FAL crowd.
 
What biznesss is you folks planninn on obtainin when thou moves thy buns in this here dirrection. Also where are your relatives you are moving close to....?

Lancaster is a great area with a rich history and some pricey homes. The city has been Puerto Ricaned and has some drug problems, but the southern end of the county is great with rural farmlands and rednecks. Lanc county is a little more expensive than York county but you could travel either over to York and down 83 or travel down 222 and then 95 to Baltimore.

As said before PA is Shall issue and Gun prices are rising with Cost of Living. Our Gov Ed Rendell is a former Mayor of Liberal Pink Philadelphia and is Anti gun but I know a few House Rep's and a Senator who have said that Rendell has no chance to get any anti-gun stuff approved. The state house and senate are Republican controlled. Pa is a small version of America, Liberal and Union centers on both East and West coast and conservative in the heartland.
 
Or am I not DC Area THR notable enough to come?
Mike Irwin? Mike Irwin? Hmm. I don't think I've ever seen him post 'round here before. I'm gonna wait until he posts a couple more times, to make sure he's not a shill... :D
Yeah, when is that Barbecue. We could drive up stop by for the BBQ, stay at a hotel and head to our folks in MD the next day.
It'll happen soon(ish). I'm building a (new additional) deck, you see, and that one needs to be finished first. Because If I have the time to have a barbecue, and the deck's not done, technically I really should be working on the deck.

I'll send out an invite, later on. Prolly by PM, because I don't want everyone in the NoVa area with a web browser to know where I live.

Oh, WRT the commutes in NoVa: Find a place to work, then find a place to live that's no further away from DC than your workplace; that way, you're never commuting toward DC in the morning, and never commuting away from it in the evening. I live in Manassas, I work in Centreville, and I never have to go toward DC during rush hour at all...

-BP
 
One more thing Sheslinger wanted me to ask. Is MD a king of your castle state or do you have to run away, take the A-train, grab a bus and have the intruder talk to somebody who cares before you can defend yourself in your own home?

Just curious.
 
Definitely a vote for Northern Va. I live in old town Manassas and it really is not that bad. Money is good, taxes aren't horrible, and the gun laws are pretty sweet.

Hey Brokenpaw, How notable does a guy have to be for this bbq??
 
"How many minutes is an acceptable commute for you? If you think about NoVa, take a careful look at the traffic! You're either going to pay a lot for a house close in to a job or get one for a little less farther out and make up the difference in commuting costs."

Or, you're going to do like I do, and find jobs OUTSIDE of DC, near where I live. Jobs that make me commute near the end of the rush hours. My hours are roughly 10 a.m. to 7 p.m. It takes me roughly 15 to 20 minutes to go the 6 miles to my job most days.

Some days are a little dicier getting home, but a half hour is unusual, and more than that is usually weather or accident related. And that's on a major commuter route.

I've been down here for 13 years now.

I've never had to commute the beltway, and while I lived in DC for awhile, I never worked there.
 
My parents are in Owings Mills, Balto county, and Cslinger's are in Pasadena, Anne Arundel Co.
Others beat me to it, but in PA York or Lancaster County are good areas, and quite nice too. Gettysburg is another place to consider (tons of history). In a different direction, you can head about an hour up I95 to the Phili burbs of SE PA. All of these would place you about 1 hour from one of your parents and 1 1/2 from the other.

One more thing Sheslinger wanted me to ask. Is MD a king of your castle state or do you have to run away, take the A-train, grab a bus and have the intruder talk to somebody who cares before you can defend yourself in your own home?
MD does actually have the Castle Doctorine believe it or not. Anywhere but home you must run away if you can before you can defend yourself (for most of us, "defend yourself" means using your hands, a knife or pepper spray, I'm not even sure if stun guns are legal). But at home you can shoot if you think your life is in danger without first trying to escape. Still, with MD juries and some DAs (primarily Baltimore's) I wouldn't want to have to pull the trigger unless I was in a back room with no place else to run to, in the home anyway, so I could show I really didn't want to but had NO other choice.


Oh I have to second, or third, or whatever, that DC area traffic is bad. It is up there w/ NYC (we are usually in the top 4 or 5 in the nation for worst commute). If you decide to live in N. VA or the DC MD burbs be sure to pick your house AFTER you get a job. Try to arrange it so that you live very close to your employment, try to be going opposite rush hour (um, pretty much lasts from 6am until 11pm) traffic- towards the city going home, away going to work. All mentioned by others, but important. Even here in Columbia traffic is starting to get bad. Outside of the DC area, Baltimore traffic can be ugly too, if you go to the Balt area just be sure to find an alternative to the beltway to get to work (a great idea in the DC area too).

Housing prices in N. VA may be even worse than Mongomery County MD but if you are willing to go a little further out it isn't too bad and I do think it is a really nice area. Richmond is particularly nice (I may move there myself). I was shocked at how much nice housing there is in Richmond that is actually quite affordable. You'd also be close enough to the DC area that you could consider a commute (though it would be a PITA) and I think there are a fair number of jobs in Richmond itself. Only thing with Richmond is that you'd be far enough from your family that it would be a weekend trip and not something you could just decide to do and go, but it would still be a lot closer than now (you'd be just around 4 hours from the Baltimore area).
 
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