(MI) Pledge of Allegiance is now recited in school!

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Take out the words under god im all right with it

Otherwise it is the prayer of allegiance. Didnt become that way until Mcarthyism deemed it should be inserted to differentiate us from the godless communists.

I find this amusing and somewhat disturbing

Pray the Pledge 11 Step Checklist:

1. If you are not assigned seats in your class, follow the scent of garlic and find a place to sit near some foreign looking student who has swarthy skin that reminds you of anything from either a chunk of coal or a little stray pooty left behind in the whirlpool of toilet water. It is safe to assume that the parents of these students have already wasted a good part of their lives indoctrinating them with a dangerous, made-up, false religion.

2. Before the Pledge begins, if your little classmates haven't noticed that you have your hands folded in prayer, not over your heart, bring it to their attention. If you are bold enough, right before the class gets ready to say the Pledge of Allegiance - shout, "Dear Lord Jesus. . ." and then continue with the rest of the class in unison, "I pledge of allegiance to the flag. . ." This will serve as a testimony to your teacher and the other students, that you are acknowledging that the Pledge of Allegiance is a prayer - right from the start. If the teacher pauses for any reason in the Pledge, look at one of your unsaved classmates and yell, "I feel a victory coming on! Yes, Jesus!" And be sure to end the Pledge with "A-men" as well. You will be surprised how fast it catches on!

3. After the pledge is over, we suggest thanking one or more of your odd looking classmates for joining you in public prayer. This should raise their curiosity.

4. Begin to ask them what it feels like to be a Christian. They may, at first, resist your entreaties, claiming to know what you are so-called "up to." Wear them down any way you can. Finally, when they openly admit that they are not Christians, but actually embrace a false religion, like Hindu, Buddhist, or Muslim - this is your opportunity to feign the look of surprise. Try to look as puzzled as you can. Ask them directly why they just falsely stated during the Pledge of Allegiance that they are under your Christian God, but just now admitted that they are not. Tell them you don't appreciate liars and neither will the principal when he gets your note.

5. More often than not, they will probably respond by saying something about "God" being universal, and it can mean whatever they want it to mean. If you can avoid the natural Christian impulse of laughing right out loud in their freshly-slapped faces, take the opportunity to sternly correct them and give them a short history lesson about how there were no Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, or Jews among the Pilgrims or Founding Fathers. Indeed, the Pilgrims were forced to turn on each other until they met the heathen, naked, alcoholic Injuns.

6. Take it a step further and begin to raise your voice slightly. Make it absolutely clear to them that there were no Muslims, Jews or Hindus who gave their lives to create the country that they are sitting in right now. And if their foreign parents want to raise them under a false God, then keep it at home - because Jesus runs THIS classroom!

7. At this point, understand that you have planted a seed of faith, and it should be harvested immediately! Be careful though! Avoid getting too excited. Don't spill the beans and tell them all they're going straight to Hell. Although this is true, we suggest you break it to them gently by reaching into your desk and slowly pulling out your Bible. Do not break eye contact with your potential converts even if you have to grab a tuft of their filthy, unwashed hair to hold them in place!

8. Refer to your Bible as "The Holy Book" and open it slowly like you are expecting the Lord to come out from between the pages and pounce on your soon-to-be-Christian friends. Most foreign trash is very superstitious and will probably become bug-eyed, and possibly soil their drawers, in the face of your new, mysterious powers.. Tell them that this Holy Book says that every single religion in the whole wide world is a false religion. Except for yours.

9. At this point, tell the students that you will be highly offended and consider it a hate crime against your religion if they do not do you the courtesy of bowing their heads and shutting their eyes and repeating after you.

10. Here is your window of opportunity - before anyone has a chance to open their mouth, start to pray this prayer and refuse to be interrupted: Poppa God, My Father in Heaven, we've just finished praying the Pledge of Allegiance to You. Everyone here openly acknowledges that we are not members of one nation under Allah or Buddha, or some other false god but we are one nation under YOU! You are God, the Father and through your Son, Jesus Christ, we acknowledge the sovereignty and ultimate authority of our Christian Nation above all other nations on earth. If any of us here are unsaved, we ask Jesus Christ to come into our hearts and stomp out the demons of Hindu, the demons of Allah, the fat little demons of Buda, and if we are Jewish, we ask you to forgive us for killing your Son and for Barbra Streisand. A-men.

11. If your classmates just prayed that prayer, it means they're saved. Take down their names and addresses and phone numbers immediately. Ask to be dismissed from class. Find a pay phone and call your pastor* with the information so that he can call their parents and tell them the good news - that someone just paid a ransom for their little children and they have been delivered forever into the unbreakable clutches of the Living God. If your pastor knows what he is doing, he will also want to use this opportunity to lead some confused parents to Christ. Before you know it, you will have assisted in securing a hoard of eager, tithing church members to your local church roster
 
I don't think that students should be forced to say the pledge, but it should definately be on the agenda for the day.

When I went to school, we recited it in home room every day in all grades. It's an affirmation of respect for the ideals for which this country stands for.
 
M problem with it being forced is twofold:

1) Obviously, everyone's not Christian.
2) Forcing someone to repeat something that they cannot understand is NOT constructive. In the lower grades, we all believed that the flag was the mightiest thing in the country, because of the pledge. If you are going to force kids to recite this, they should understand the importance.

Blind faith in your leaders, or in anything, will get you killed.†—Bruce Springsteen

Once the kids understand the importance and significance of what they are doing, then it is more acceptable.
 
Actual minutes from estes park town meeting

http://www.estesnet.com/TownClerk/Minutes/TB/TB 2004-10-12.pdf


Mayor Baudek called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m. and presented a Proclamation to
Anne Slack, PT/Mountain Physical Therapy, PC, acknowledging the month of October
as Physical Therapy Month in Estes Park.
PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE. All desiring to do, recited the Pledge of Allegiance.
PUBLIC COMMENT
Richard Clark advised that he is starting a Recall Petition seeking the recall of Trustee
Habecker adding that (in summary) now is not the time nor place to disrespect the
American Flag, and comments from others in support of the recall were heard from Ken
Coleman, Al Sager, Walt Van Lue, and Ron Lint. Comments in support of Trustee
Habecker exercising his constitutional rights were heard from Warren Donahou.
TOWN BOARD COMMENTS
Trustee Habecker addressed the issues of his protest to the Pledge and the subsequent
Recall Petition—in summary, his protest has nothing to do with disrespect for the flag,
fellow board members, community or any religion; his protest concerns the
unconstitutional religious test that the Pledge of Allegiance becomes with the addition of
the words “under God.â€
Trustee Jeffrey-Clark read aloud a commentary on the Pledge of Allegiance by Red
Skelton, adding that this is the wrong time and place and the Town Board represents
everyone in the community.
Mayor Baudek read aloud the Oath of Office for Estes Park Elected Officials, raising the
question—has Trustee Habecker violated this oath?; we talk about freedom, is it
freedom when some say if we don’t do what we want, that person will be ostracized?
Americans should be teaching constitutional rights—they are very sacred.
 
The Players

http://www.estesnet.com/TownClerk/MayorTrustees/

Fellow trustee Lori Jeffrey-Clark, whose husband started the recall campaign, said Habecker does not have the right to sit when people at the meeting recite the pledge.


"He's an elected official, paid by the citizens, making a personal issue on the citizens' dime," she said.


Seems like she made it a personal issue when she was the one that got the pledge of allegiance started.
For 102 years the town meetings never started with the pledge of allegiance
then aformentioned mrs clark decides after 102 years Its "time to say the prayer of allegiance"
Then throws a hissy fit when some one doesnt go along
jeffrey.jpg

She is married to an ex policeman and gunsmith. I wonder who he is on this board.
(970) 412-0188 (CELL)
(970) 586-9159 (H)
E-mail: [email protected]
 
Well, she's wrong. That's pretty obvious.

It's not like the guy is refusing to enter the room or turning his back to the flag or anything blatantly disrespectful.
 
It is ironic to force people to swear loyalty to a free country. Forcing kids to acknowledge someone's god is even worse. If you think the kids are not forced, then ask yourself why it is illegal to ask a kid for sexual favors. Young people can not be expected to stand up to grown ups and class rooms full of people. It is nice when they do, though.

For the record: I say the pledge, but being a heretic I leave out the "under god" part.
 
Is the pledge exclusionary?

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/076680.htm
Kenny Hess, a senior at Spanaway Lake High School in Washington State, has been removed from TV production assignments for the rest of the year because he omitted the phase "under God" from his recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance during a broadcast. He has apologized, but also doesn't feel that he can be forced to say "under God" if he doesn't want - but school officials aren't budging.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2003-05-04-mauro_x.htm
And guess what? Nothing really is missing. Americans recited the pledge without "under God" from the time it was first written in 1892 until 1954, carrying the nation through two world wars and several smaller ones. It was only in 1954 that Congress, frantic about the march of godless communism, passed a law inserting the words "under God." Neither Congress nor President Dwight Eisenhower, who signed the bill, made any bones about the religious intent of the added words. "From this day forward," Eisenhower said, "the millions of our schoolchildren will daily proclaim ... the dedication of our nation and our people to the almighty."

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/nation/3568704.htm
Atlanta -- A federal appeals court heard arguments Friday on whether an Alabama school system had the right to discipline a student who stood silently with his fist raised rather than recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

The student, Michael Holloman, a high school senior from Parrish, Ala., who has since graduated, was spanked three times with a wooden paddle and given a written reprimand.

Court papers said Walker County school board policy requires students to say the pledge and salute the flag during the day's first class. The policy also requires students to sit through "prayer requests" and a moment of silence.

Do the students have to sit silently during my prayer request when i profess my fidelity to Ballsack the almighty white genitallia?
Separation of church and state protects religion not oppresses it. Nobody should be compelled to pray. Whether or not it is in line with there rreligion of choice. Imagine having to sit thru a "prayer" as some student proclaims there god is the only one and all not bowing to that same god will burn in hell?
 
And here is proof that

seperation of church and state is a GOOD thing

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/12/23/xmas.festivus.ap/index.html

BARTOW, Florida (AP) -- When a Florida church group put a Nativity scene on public property, officials warned it might open the door to other religious -- and not-so-religious -- displays. They were right.

Since the Nativity was erected in Polk County, displays have gone up honoring Zoroastrianism and the fake holiday Festivus, featured on the TV sitcom "Seinfeld."

The Polk County Commission voted 4-1 Wednesday to permit the Nativity scene to remain across the street from the courthouse, as well as to make that area a "public forum" open to any type of display.
 
Chris Rhines may be right in that it was written by an avowed socialist (shudder ), however, is that the context in which it is being used? I don't feel the need to give away all of my belongings and call my neighbor comrade Halloween was/is a pagan holiday but I doubt that all of those kids in SpongeBob outfits were little Druids-in-training.

Dang! Norton is on to our plan!


Atlanta -- A federal appeals court heard arguments Friday on whether an Alabama school system had the right to discipline a student who stood silently with his fist raised rather than recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

The student, Michael Holloman, a high school senior from Parrish, Ala., who has since graduated, was spanked three times with a wooden paddle and given a written reprimand.

If someone hit me for exercising my beliefs, I'd be unhappy. I'd probably return the favor.


Standing is nice and respectful, even if you disagree with the words. If you don't want to say the words, don't. If someone else doesn't want to say the words, leave 'em alone. Personally, I'd rather swear allegiance to the Constitution of the US.
 
Will you stand respectfully and be quiet

When i pledge my allegiance to Satan? And instead of saying under god I say One nation under bezzlebub and make the sign of the two headed goat of macross?
 
I have never heard so much dribble as this entire post.... I guess the kids and lawyers of today, are a more delicate bunch..... when I was a kid...we said it daily....and guess what...I lived and so did all the millions of kids, now your mom and dads, doing this first thing every morning... defend it....not going to, but saying it is some socialist, devil, religious , brain altering solical pledge is a bit too much....go back and watch tv, or choose a cause worthwhile. You all pledged your allegience, and what it warped you ?.... PLEASE !!!! Now Merry Christmas is what ? infringing on other religions? give me a break !!! Arc-Lite
 
Socialism wasn't that bad then, when he created it.

Here's another good site on "The Pledge" and it's origins.

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

Here's the interesting bit at the end of the page:

If the Pledge's historical pattern repeats, its words will be modified during this decade. Below are two possible changes.

Some prolife advocates recite the following slightly revised Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, born and unborn.'

A few liberals recite a slightly revised version of Bellamy's original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.'
 
I remember hearing about this not too long ago.
My feeling is, if they don't want to say 'under God' then they don't have to. That's one thing America is about, freedom. Right?
It's not like omitting two words from the Pledge of Allegiance is a crime...
 
Socialism is always bad.

Most Americans will agree with you on that.

I don't have a problem with a little socialism, but on the whole...

Nah

I'm talking about public perception rather than "right and wrong". Anyways, I generally like the pledge because it expresses the ideals that make this country great. It's also one of the few national "traditions" that all Americans can partake in.
 
Nehemiah Scudder said:
Most Americans will agree with you on that.

Sure, until you start talking about getting rid of social security or welfare or the post office or something.

Nehemiah Scudder said:
Anyways, I generally like the pledge because it expresses the ideals that make this country great.

Pledging allegiance to flags? One nation, under God, indivisible?

Nehemiah Scudder said:
It's also one of the few national "traditions" that all Americans can partake in.

It's a crappy tradition. People should stick to baseball and football. Or maybe we could replace the pledge with that Lee Greenwood song. It still has God in it though, so people will probably still be offended.
 
My feeling is, if they don't want to say 'under God' then they don't have to. That's one thing America is about, freedom. Right?
It's not like omitting two words from the Pledge of Allegiance is a crime...


The words Under God were added in the 50s' to seperate us from the godless communists. To me it is proselytizing. If you have 20 kids saying the under god part and 2 that do not. The 2 renegades will get crap from at least 1 bible thumping fundie kid. Yeah it happens. Its a prayer not a pledge. Thats why so many school kids add in "Amen" at the end. We did that was from our teacher.
A kid got suspended for not saying the under god part. Is that fair?
Here some one wrote how i feel about this issue in detail
http://slate.msn.com/?id=2067499

Poor Alfred Goodwin! So torrential was the flood of condemnation that followed his opinion—which held that it's unconstitutional for public schools to require students to recite "under God" as part of the Pledge of Allegiance—that the beleaguered appellate-court judge suspended his own ruling until the whole 9th Circuit Court has a chance to review the case.

Not one major political figure summoned the courage to rebut the spurious claims that America's founders wished to make God a part of public life. It's an old shibboleth of those who want to inject religion into public life that they're honoring the spirit of the nation's founders. In fact, the founders opposed the institutionalization of religion. They kept the Constitution free of references to God. The document mentions religion only to guarantee that godly belief would never be used as a qualification for holding office—a departure from many existing state constitutions. That the founders made erecting a church-state wall their first priority when they added the Bill of Rights to the Constitution reveals the importance they placed on maintaining what Isaac Kramnick and R. Laurence Moore have called a "godless Constitution." When Benjamin Franklin proposed during the Constitutional Convention that the founders begin each day of their labors with a prayer to God for guidance, his suggestion was defeated.

Given this tradition, it's not surprising that the original Pledge of Allegiance—meant as an expression of patriotism, not religious faith—also made no mention of God. The pledge was written in 1892 by the socialist Francis Bellamy, a cousin of the famous radical writer Edward Bellamy. He devised it for the popular magazine Youth's Companion on the occasion of the nation's first celebration of Columbus Day. Its wording omitted reference not only to God but also, interestingly, to the United States:

"I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

The key words for Bellamy were "indivisible," which recalled the Civil War and the triumph of federal union over states' rights, and "liberty and justice for all," which was supposed to strike a balance between equality and individual freedom. By the 1920s, reciting the pledge had become a ritual in many public schools.

Since the founding, critics of America's secularism have repeatedly sought to break down the church-state wall. After the Civil War, for example, some clergymen argued that the war's carnage was divine retribution for the founders' refusal to declare the United States a Christian nation, and tried to amend the Constitution to do so.

The efforts to bring God into the state reached their peak during the so-called "religious revival" of the 1950s. It was a time when Norman Vincent Peale grafted religion onto the era's feel-good consumerism in his best-selling The Power of Positive Thinking; when Billy Graham rose to fame as a Red-baiter who warned that Americans would perish in a nuclear holocaust unless they embraced Jesus Christ; when Secretary of State John Foster Dulles believed that the United States should oppose communism not because the Soviet Union was a totalitarian regime but because its leaders were atheists.

Hand in hand with the Red Scare, to which it was inextricably linked, the new religiosity overran Washington. Politicians outbid one another to prove their piety. President Eisenhower inaugurated that Washington staple: the prayer breakfast. Congress created a prayer room in the Capitol. In 1955, with Ike's support, Congress added the words "In God We Trust" on all paper money. In 1956 it made the same four words the nation's official motto, replacing "E Pluribus Unum." Legislators introduced Constitutional amendments to state that Americans obeyed "the authority and law of Jesus Christ."

The campaign to add "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance was part of this movement. It's unclear precisely where the idea originated, but one driving force was the Catholic fraternal society the Knights of Columbus. In the early '50s the Knights themselves adopted the God-infused pledge for use in their own meetings, and members bombarded Congress with calls for the United States to do the same. Other fraternal, religious, and veterans clubs backed the idea. In April 1953, Rep. Louis Rabaut, D-Mich., formally proposed the alteration of the pledge in a bill he introduced to Congress.

The "under God" movement didn't take off, however, until the next year, when it was endorsed by the Rev. George M. Docherty, the pastor of the Presbyterian church in Washington that Eisenhower attended. In February 1954, Docherty gave a sermon—with the president in the pew before him—arguing that apart from "the United States of America," the pledge "could be the pledge of any country." He added, "I could hear little Moscovites [sic] repeat a similar pledge to their hammer-and-sickle flag with equal solemnity." Perhaps forgetting that "liberty and justice for all" was not the norm in Moscow, Docherty urged the inclusion of "under God" in the pledge to denote what he felt was special about the United States.

The ensuing congressional speechifying—debate would be a misnomer, given the near-unanimity of opinion—offered more proof that the point of the bill was to promote religion. The legislative history of the 1954 act stated that the hope was to "acknowledge the dependence of our people and our Government upon … the Creator … [and] deny the atheistic and materialistic concept of communism." In signing the bill on June 14, 1954, Flag Day, Eisenhower delighted in the fact that from then on, "millions of our schoolchildren will daily proclaim in every city and town … the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty." That the nation, constitutionally speaking, was in fact dedicated to the opposite proposition seemed to escape the president.

In recent times, controversies over the pledge have centered on the wisdom of enforcing patriotism more than on its corruption from a secular oath into a religious one. In the 1988 presidential race, as many readers will recall, George Bush bludgeoned Democratic nominee Michael Dukakis for vetoing a mandatory-pledge bill when he was governor of Massachusetts, even though the state Supreme Court had ruled the bill unconstitutional. Surely one reason for the current cravenness of Democratic leaders is a fear of undergoing Dukakis' fate in 2002 or 2004 at the hands of another Bush.

The history of the pledge supports Goodwin's decision. The record of the 1954 act shows that, far from a "de minimis" reference or a mere "backdrop" devoid of meaning, the words "under God" were inserted in the pledge for the express purpose of endorsing religion—which the U.S. Supreme Court itself ruled in 1971 was unconstitutional. Also according to the Supreme Court's own rulings, it doesn't matter that students are allowed to refrain from saying the pledge; a 2000 high court opinion held that voluntary, student-led prayers at school football games are unconstitutionally "coercive," because they force students into an unacceptable position of either proclaiming religious beliefs they don't share or publicly protesting.

The appeals court decision came almost 40 years to the day after the Supreme Court decision in Engel v. Vitale. In that case, the court ruled it unconstitutional for public schools to allow prayer, even though the prayer was non-denominational and students were allowed abstain from the exercise. When asked about the unpopular decision, President John F. Kennedy replied coolly that he knew many people were angry, but that the decisions of the court had to be respected. He added that there was "a very easy remedy"—not a constitutional amendment but a renewed commitment by Americans to pray at home, in their churches, and with their families.
 
Sure, until you start talking about getting rid of social security or welfare or the post office or something.

lol The post office isn't what I'd normally consider "socialist". I think it's going to be around for a while, although I can see it becoming a lot smaller. Social Security and Welfare on the other hand I can see being a bit "socialist".

Pledging allegiance to flags? One nation, under God, indivisible?
Liberty and Justice for All were the ones I had in mind.

It's a crappy tradition. People should stick to baseball and football. Or maybe we could replace the pledge with that Lee Greenwood song. It still has God in it though, so people will probably still be offended.

I'd be offended because it's country/western. :p The other traditions I was thinking of is flying the flag, and the national anthem. I might throw baseball and football in too, now that you mention it.
 
My last note ..amusing i think

When i was a kid. I worked for a guy who was a commie hunter. As right wing as you can possibly get. Bought into the whole commies are taking over america red scare crap. I read a lot of his "Literature". Not only did the Anit communist mcarthyites believe that communists were evil because of there godlessness.<-- ( a word?) They also believed there was a jewish conspiracy. The red menace people also put out that the jews owned everything and were behind all the decisions in the world. Sometimes while reading posts on this board i get a hint of that paranoia. Whether it be about the UN or the Atheists or the liberal socialists. Im a liberal. I am for RKBA. Im not for socialism and i dont know any liberals that are. Back on point.
Seperation of church and state is Good it protects both religon and state. See i see a lot of bias most of you arguing for inclusion of the under god part of the pledge would have a serious problem if other words were used like Under vishnu or under satan or......
I forgot who said it but it is a pretty good saying

KEEP YOUR RELIGON OUT OF MY GOVERMENT AND ILL KEEP MY GOVERMENT OUT OF YOUR RELIGON. Sound fair?
story.festivus.ap.jpg
 
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