Michael Bane: My S&W's Internal Lock Just Catastrophically Failed
- Thread starter P. Plainsman
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Geronimo45
Member
People who think that locking the gun will render it perfectly and absolutely safe - so their kids or visitors' kids won't get hold of it and accidentally kill somebody.
A lot of folks don't have safes, so they think the locking device'll do the job instead.
nitesite
Member
These are the offending parts. A key turns the cam which rotates the flag up, causing a post on the other side of the flag to engage a slot in the hammer thus immobilizing the hammer and preventing its movement.
And here, BTW, is what a Model 686 looks like when those parts are... ummmm.... performing other duties.
Actually, the post can be mistaken for a machining burr and be accidentally removed with a Dremel tool when doing a good inspection and cleaning on the insides of a new S&W with "the lock".
Or you can be clumsy and drop the flag behind a piano, then just put the other two pieces back in, to fill the hole in the side of the gun just above the cylinder latch. The missing flag means a 1/32" gap is on the left side of the hammer. Hardly noticeable.....
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pdowg881
Member
Internal locks sound like a bad idea in general. I remeber a recent discussion where some people said they've seen or had 870 shotguns with the safety lock locking up out in the field all by itself.
Regolith
Member
pdowg....but unlike S&W, Remington got the point and stopped making them. 
Black Adder LXX
Member
One of the reasons why I haven't gone with the 642 yet. I'm kinda hoping someboy would wise up at S&W. I love their products otherwise...
MCgunner
Member
In a 329 which is a back country handgun not for self defense against human predators particularly, what legal hassle could there be in disabling the lock?
I've lost the key to my M85UL Taurus. I've never locked it. I've never had it fail in thousands of rounds, so not real worried about it. It's a different design than the Smith lock, on the hammer and operates 90 degrees to recoil forces of the gun. I could easily disable it, but see no need.
Glad I got a pre-lock SP101 already. Whew!
I've lost the key to my M85UL Taurus. I've never locked it. I've never had it fail in thousands of rounds, so not real worried about it. It's a different design than the Smith lock, on the hammer and operates 90 degrees to recoil forces of the gun. I could easily disable it, but see no need.
Glad I got a pre-lock SP101 already. Whew!
MassMark
Member
Smith and Wesson engaged in a popular practice - it's called business survival. With anti-gunners and their ilk - coupled with like minded lawyers circling like viltures to a kill, Smith and Wesson took steps to ensure they could continue to do business - pure and simple. The AWB is over and has been for quite some time. Where is Ruger with 30rd factory magazines for the Mini 14? Where has HK's non LEO non Military customer service gone? Where are all those neat civilian versions of their weapons? What about Colt? Try and find a civlilian Colt M4 that isn't neutered beyond reality. That's just a few examples of gun manufacturers circling their wagons in the face of a world gone mad...
For every "failure" - (suspicious or not) which makes the Internet, tens of thousands of other Smith and Wesson owners enjoy a reliable, robust, accurate and superb firearm, (s). Spend some time on the Internet. Type in any firearm and include words like: trouble, problem, issue, awful, etc. You'll find threads on just about any and everything. Springfield Armory M1A's get bad press, yet I have over 7,500 rounds through mine with zero issues. My 642CT has been nothing short of stunning. Everything about it is just a joy. And I don't shoot poo-poo girly man rounds through it either - it's fed a steady diet, (approaching 1,000 rounds now) of Speer GDHP +P 135's. This and I haven't had anyone "tinkering" with it to boot. My internal lock is off and has been since the second I removed it from the box. I turned the lock on, then off and tossed the key back in the box - done.
I don't find this "evidence" as anything more than more hype on the WWW. Good information to keep in the far reaches of the gray matter I suppose, but nothing more than a blog by a guy who had a failure with a modified firearm. Reminds me of guys who run 28" tires on their ATV's and wonder why they're blowing belts...Answer: The quad wasn't designed for 28" tires...
For every "failure" - (suspicious or not) which makes the Internet, tens of thousands of other Smith and Wesson owners enjoy a reliable, robust, accurate and superb firearm, (s). Spend some time on the Internet. Type in any firearm and include words like: trouble, problem, issue, awful, etc. You'll find threads on just about any and everything. Springfield Armory M1A's get bad press, yet I have over 7,500 rounds through mine with zero issues. My 642CT has been nothing short of stunning. Everything about it is just a joy. And I don't shoot poo-poo girly man rounds through it either - it's fed a steady diet, (approaching 1,000 rounds now) of Speer GDHP +P 135's. This and I haven't had anyone "tinkering" with it to boot. My internal lock is off and has been since the second I removed it from the box. I turned the lock on, then off and tossed the key back in the box - done.
I don't find this "evidence" as anything more than more hype on the WWW. Good information to keep in the far reaches of the gray matter I suppose, but nothing more than a blog by a guy who had a failure with a modified firearm. Reminds me of guys who run 28" tires on their ATV's and wonder why they're blowing belts...Answer: The quad wasn't designed for 28" tires...
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
Smith & Wesson doesn't admit mistakes: it manufactures, markets, and sells them.
Hawk
Member
I've only recently discovered revolvers and thus far none have locks. I doubt I'd be troubled by a lock as my personal revolvers are, for the most part, range toys.
Should I find myself toting one for "serious" uses I could easily picture myself having an accident with my only bottle of red threadlocking compound.
Not a slam on S&W - my EDC semi has no firing pin block and no lock. I'm just a fan of simplicity.
Should I find myself toting one for "serious" uses I could easily picture myself having an accident with my only bottle of red threadlocking compound.
Not a slam on S&W - my EDC semi has no firing pin block and no lock. I'm just a fan of simplicity.
Nightcrawler
Member
Here's the thing. A lot of folks feel the same way. As near as I can tell, almost no one seems interested in telling that to Smith & Wesson.
Look folks. Talking about this on an anonymous internet forum isn't going to affect their business decisions. It is extremely unlikely that anyone that is in a position to make a decision like that (to change or remove the internal lock) reads this forum. It's more likely that all they look at are sales numbers.
The "average shooter" doesn't spend a lot of time on internet boards. The "average shooter" buys guns he/she likes and is happy with them; if they break, the "average shooter" sends them back to the factory for repair, and is happy when they come back.
Most people that buy Springfield 1911s don't swap out the mainspring housing to be rid of the ILS. Most people who want an inexpensive firearm don't avoid Taurus because they have internal locks.
So instead of preaching to the chior, as it were, let Smith & Wesson know how you feel.
EMAIL: [email protected]
TELEPHONE: 1-800-331-0852 (Monday-Friday, 0800-2000)
FAX: 1-413-747-3317
SNAIL MAIL:
Smith & Wesson
2100 Roosevelt Avenue
Springfield, MA 01104
Tell them that you're a fan of Smith & Wesson products, but have heard enough reports of lock malfunctions that you're hesitant to buy one. Tell them that they're losing sales to Ruger over this. Please, please, do not make stuff up. I know this is an emotionally charged issue for a lot of people (for some reason), but it only takes one exxagerated story of THE LOCK causing someone's wife to leave him or some such to destroy the credibility of everyone else. If you have experienced or witnessed a lock malfunction, explain in detail what happened and tell them that this is unacceptable.
For my part, I'm not worried about the locks on my guns becuase they're so chock-full of Blue Loc-Tite that they won't budge.
Anyway, it's possible, even likely, that this won't change anything at Smith & Wesson. On the other hand, internal locks are optional on, say, the M&P series autoloaders, there's no reason that it shouldn't be an option on their revolvers as well. Either way, I guarantee nothing will change if no one is so much as willing to send an e-mail over this.
Has any other brands of Internal Locks Failed?
I have a Taurus M85 38 Special snubbie, lightweight. Do not fire it much because the recoil is surprizing sharp. It has an internal lock. Do not recall anyone claiming these locks jam the pistols. In fact, can't recall any posting for any other manufacturer's internal locks failing.
So, anyone heard of any other brands of internal locks failing beside S&W?
I have a Taurus M85 38 Special snubbie, lightweight. Do not fire it much because the recoil is surprizing sharp. It has an internal lock. Do not recall anyone claiming these locks jam the pistols. In fact, can't recall any posting for any other manufacturer's internal locks failing.
So, anyone heard of any other brands of internal locks failing beside S&W?
nitesite
Member
Does any other manufacturer use such fragile-looking and overly complicated parts? I'm familiar with the Ruger, Springfield Armory and Taurus designs and IMHO they are simpler and more robust.
Sylvan-Forge
Member
Thanks for posting the email Nightcrawler.
Here's my short letter:
To whom it may concern,
As you no doubt have been receiving some increased email as of late on the topic of internal locks, I would like to cast my vote with you as well. Please do us all a big favor and make a nice political statement to boot ..
Send the internal locks to the wood-chipper along with the nasty holes in the frames.
From an endearing S&W fan.
Best regards,
MM
Here's my short letter:
To whom it may concern,
As you no doubt have been receiving some increased email as of late on the topic of internal locks, I would like to cast my vote with you as well. Please do us all a big favor and make a nice political statement to boot ..
Send the internal locks to the wood-chipper along with the nasty holes in the frames.
From an endearing S&W fan.
Best regards,
MM
Serpico
Member
Seems like a lot of people here and on other forums (myself included) do not like the lock enough to not buy new...I wonder how much of a dent that is in S&W sales? You would think anyone buying a new gun might join a gun forum and learn about the lock but apparantly that isn't the case.....
VonFatman
Member
I too have made a decision to avoid S&Ws w/locks...so far, it's been an easy decision as I do not see anything in the current line-up that trips my "trigger".
Soooo many pre-lock Smiths to choose from.
Bob
Soooo many pre-lock Smiths to choose from.
Bob
2ndamd
Member
+1 on never buying a Smith with a lock......never!
44and45
Member In Memoriam
This Taurus bashing has got to stop! 
WHAT? These aren't Taurus, they're S&W revolvers...this can't be???
Well, not to worry, send them back on their warranty.
WHAT? These aren't Taurus, they're S&W revolvers...this can't be???
Well, not to worry, send them back on their warranty.
p35
Member
S&W should go to the Taurus type lock if they need to have one- as someone said, it's a simpler and more reliable design. When I had a Taurus .22 Mag I left it locked when I wasn't using it just on general principles, and never had trouble with it either working or not working.
I am an new member and this is my first post---please be kind!
I think the key word here is "overhaul". Does that mean it had been shot enough to require an overhaul and if it had--why no failures before the "overhaul"?
I have a 629 MG in .44Mag and it has the IL. I have put many hundreds of rounds thru it. It has had both "target" loads and heavy hunting loads with NO problems. It is is primary home defense gun and is loaded with Cor-Bon 165g HP.
It appears to me that the early "Blued" and Sc guns have the problems, just my thoughts.
I think the key word here is "overhaul". Does that mean it had been shot enough to require an overhaul and if it had--why no failures before the "overhaul"?
I have a 629 MG in .44Mag and it has the IL. I have put many hundreds of rounds thru it. It has had both "target" loads and heavy hunting loads with NO problems. It is is primary home defense gun and is loaded with Cor-Bon 165g HP.
It appears to me that the early "Blued" and Sc guns have the problems, just my thoughts.
Vern Humphrey
Member
I just have a strong prejudice against paying extra money for a feature I don't want, then having to go to the trouble to remove or modify it. There are lots and lots of pre-lock guns on the market, and any manufacturer who wants me to buy a gun with a lock will have a loooooong wait.
wuchak
Member
I'm pretty sure by overhauled he meant completely tuned by one of the best revolver smiths in the country.
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