Michael Bane: My S&W's Internal Lock Just Catastrophically Failed

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S&W has you, if you want a 329, 360PD, 340PD, etc. If you want a real easy to pack revolver, and scandium strong, you have no other choices.

Mine 'auto locked' after about 150 rounds of .38 special, and, it locked while dry firing, maybe 2000-3000 times, on snap caps:

360LEFT.gif

I figure the lock, designed by S&W's new owners, shows their design brilliance.:barf: Likewise, the stupid little rubber grips that come stock on the gun. They don't cover the backstrap, so they don't take up much, if any recoil.
They are rubber, so, they catch on your clothes, this on a gun designed for CCW. Finally, unless you have the world's smallest hands, they are too small to hold onto the gun under 357 recoil.

S esq.
 
I called S&W when the gun locked. They sent me the stuff to send it back, but, I know a great gunsmith, and, the guys that generally work for the big companies are just learning.

I asked for a full refund, and, they never responded. It was ok, because there is no other combination of weight and power on the market in that size.

I am concerned that without the lock piece, that binding may wear out parts in a way they shouldn't. You can feel a weird sort of take up in the first part of the trigger, from where the lock piece used to be.

Maybe I'll have that looked at.

S Esq.
 
Yikes, guys...sorry to be so long in catching up on this thread!

For the record, Jim Stroh did a trigger job on my 329 and replaced the factory fiber optic with a gold bead front sight. Jim Stroh is one of the best S&W revolver guys in the world. He never touched the lock mechanism.

I bought the gun used (off the S&W Forum classifieds, if I remember correctly). The trigger pull eas outrageous, and not in a good way. I do not think anyone — Jim or S&W — is obligated to fix a problem with a used gun. It's on me and my wallet. To their credit, both S&W and Jim Stroh contacted me immediately after I posted and asked for the gun. I feel obligated to allow S&W's engineers to see the gun to see if something can be learned from it.

I handled the gun gingerly because the hammer had fallen when the flag jammed it...so I had a hammer under tension with a live round in the gun and no way to decock. Scared the crap out of me. I sat the 329 down for a few minutes until I could figure out how to address the problem without requring three arms and a trained monkey. Eventually, I was able to bring the hammer back to full cock by holding the trigger back, pressing the flag down with the tip of the screwdriver and pulling back hard on the hammer, all the whiloe keeping the muzzle away from my anatomy.

As far as an "overhauled" gun, I disassembled my first S&W revolver when I was about 15 years old (and dinosaurs ruled the earth!), so I'm not new to the dance. I collect N-frames and have worked with some of the top S&W experts int he world. All things considered, the S&W DA revolver mechanism is pretty much bomb-proof. Since this happened, I've talked to some of the top gunsmiths in the country, and the general consensus is that the recoil wave in a light-framed revolver is so fast that it causes the flag to bounce pretty hard, and whedn you get a "perfect storm" — hot loads, heavy bullets and the hammer falling just so as the flag is bouncing up — the hammer binds against the flag. It seems to depend on a lot of factors coming together just so...for instance, no one seems to be able to replicate the phenomenon in a rest; it needs a hand,, wich has more "give" than a rest, to recoil against.

I would like to point out that I've put hundreds of rounds through various .500 S&Ws with locks with NO problems whatsoever. I've also put a lot of .44 Magnums/.44 Specials, through guns with locks with no problems.

Bottom line to me...I got the 329 SPECIFICALLY as a back-up gun in dangerous game country after I shot Hamilton Bowen's 329 with loony-tune hunting loads. That means hard-cast heavy Keith bullets and hot loads. I suspect the only way I will feel safe using the gun in that context is with the lock removed.

Michael B
 
So, are there any gunsmiths out there that will remove the lock mechanism and weld up the hole in the frame?
 
There has been a lot of reaction to the presence of various internal locking systems introduced on various firearms. I, for one, certainly wouldn't be surprised to see this as a trend of things to come when it comes to new production firearms ... but that's another subject ...

Anyway, I've listened to the reactions of the vocal folks who oppose the presence of the internal/integral locks, whether fool-proof or not, as well as the folks who find them useful and practical for their needs ... and everyone else who vacillates back and forth or falls in between.

I've talked to several folks at S&W who have a lot of experience with the revolvers produced with the locks. They've been pretty puzzled by the complaints of unintentional lock engagement. I've been repeatedly told the locks were exhaustively tested in their revolvers before being incorporated in revolver production, from the lightweight J-frames all the way up to the .500 & .460 S&W Magnums. I've also been told that they've been unable to duplicate the unintentional lock engagement, as long as the locks were installed properly and hadn't been tampered with ...

I'm as skeptical as the next person when it comes to change, though, and since I'm not a 'specific brand loyal' kind of guy I've been listening and watching ...

I've handled and fired a number of S&W revolvers equipped with the locking system, including J-frame Airlites and a couple of X-frame .500 S&W Magnums. No problems with unintentional engagement.

I've observed a number of other folks shooting new S&W revolvers equipped with the locks. No problems observed and no complaints heard.

I finally bought a new J-frame MP340 equipped with the lock. Shot it with standard pressure and +P .38 Spl, as well as shooting upwards of a hundred rounds of various .357 Magnum through it. Ouch. Dry-fired it until my finger couldn't cycle the trigger. Rested and did it some more. Did it on different days. Lost track of the dry-firing. No problems with unintentional engagement of the lock.

Being a curious LE armorer-type, I examined the lock arm and the torque locking spring. Interesting. The installation of the torque lock spring is a bit tricky when it comes to securing the short leg within the locking arm, and the longer leg must be properly positioned within a small recessed slot in the frame. I can see how it might be improperly installed if someone was distracted or wasn't paying attention. The small size of the lock arm's torque lock spring makes for difficult handling, if nothing else.

I noticed the current lock arm for the E/J frame guns (Part #29373) is Revision E, and the torque lock spring is Revision NEW. Of course, this may not mean what you might think, on the surface, since S&W is constantly making refinements & revisions to parts, getting them from new vendors or getting new versions from vendors, etc., etc.

For example, on a recent parts order 6 of the 8 various types of parts I ordered had various Revisions listed in the name/description. On another invoice where I ordered 10 various parts, 9 of them had Revisions listed in the descriptions. Pretty normal for them.

I think that almost all of the magazine springs I've been ordering in recent years have all been marked with a Revision number or letter, or both. How about a magazine spring listed as MAG SPRG REV A1 CH-244 REV.M2 ... or MAG SPRG REV. L5 ... or MAG SPRG CH244 REV. L1 ... or MAG SPRG REV. NEW?

Anyway, and oddly enough, a couple of problems I've recently encountered with S&W revolvers have involved a sear which wasn't properly fitted (causing the sear to stubb on the rear of the trigger, locking up the revolver when firing Magnum ammunition), and it was in an older 'pre-lock' revolver ... and a DCU (Doesn't Carry UP) timing issue where the cylinder didn't consistently lock on all charge holes before the hammer fell. Nothing to do with internal locks, believe it or not.

I've had other issues with S&W revolvers which were produced 'pre-lock', too, some going back to the 'good old days' when they were being produced with pinned barrels. A couple of examples are a 649 .38 Spl Bodyguard that came out of the box with a trigger that wouldn't return and a 629 Classic which exhibited Push-Off, and which had a hammer & trigger so far out-of-spec that it required a replacement hammer & trigger in order for the condition to be corrected.

On the other hand, I've had a couple of NIB S&W revolvers which were seemingly terrific right as they came from the box ... one had MIM parts and the other didn't. Go figure.

It's not just S&W revolvers, though. I could talk about problems I've had with other makes of revolvers, as well. Don't get me started on some Rugers. ;)

Things happen, and they'll likely continue to happen, especially when it comes to machinery produced by people.

I do think, however, that S&W ... and a few other manufacturers of firearms which I could name ... could stand some improvement when it comes to their Quality Control, though. :scrutiny:

Just my thoughts ...
 
Mike, please let Stroh see the gun first so that Smith doesn't blame him for the problem and so we can all get an honest assessment of the failure by a truly top-flight gunsmith.

Smith will either finger Stroh or conjure up some BS excuse.

I trust Stroh more than Smith.

The bottom line is that the lock introduces an unneeded part into what was a flawless machine, thus increasing the failure rate of the machine. As long as Smith keeps the lock, the Rugers will rule the roost.
 
My smith had the lock out in 5 minutes. He would not do it at first request, but,
he was amazed the stupid little thing had managed to lock the gun up. I thank God I wasn't at the range when it happened. Carrying a loaded, cocked gun around, or trying to figure out how to ship it would have been a real nightmare.:fire:

S esq.
 
Mr Bane, please assist those of us who would like to purchase a new S&W revolver for self defense, but can not accept an internal lock. Use your influence to get S&W to offer us a choice of internal lock or not, the same choice they offer to Police officers with the M&P pistols.

If the internal lock is so reliable, and "not an issue", why don't Police departments want them on their guns?

Why are non police treated differently, and forced to accept the internal lock?

Last question, when will your friend Charlie Petty be printing a retraction of his puff piece, and apologizing to those he insulted?
 
I recently bought a 4" Ruger Redhawk in 44mag. Ruger includes a rubber coated padlock that can be used to prevent the cylinder from being closed. Seems like a much better approuch. It is also very obvious to naked eye that revolver is locked or not locked.
 
Mr Bane, please assist those of us who would like to purchase a new S&W revolver for self defense, but can not accept an internal lock. Use your influence to get S&W to offer us a choice of internal lock or not, the same choice they offer to Police officers with the M&P pistols.

If the internal lock is so reliable, and "not an issue", why don't Police departments want them on their guns?

Why are non police treated differently, and forced to accept the internal lock?

Last question, when will your friend Charlie Petty be printing a retraction of his puff piece, and apologizing to those he insulted?
Thaddeus Jones is online now Report Post
Click to expand...

Wow!!! I just saw a 800 pound pig fly by!!!!:rolleyes::eek:

The new owners business, in my limited understanding, is selling gun locks.

Do you really think they are going to take them off the S&W's?

Heck, why don't they just make them work????

S esq.
 
As mentioned in the 'quotes' thread...

"New Smith & Wesson revolvers are cheap imitations of S&W revolvers."

If they'd go back to making real revolvers, we'd all be happier. Sadly, they don't seem to be able to do so.
 
Can somebody tell me where all of these pre-lock Smiths are? I am a fan of the Centennials and when I check at my local shops they never have any and tell me that they never get any. I tried to buy a no-lock 442 off of Guns America about a month ago and it was already sold (although they won't remove the ad). I guess I will just have to wait for the Model 40 "lemon squeezer" to hit the shelves or pick up a bobbed SP101.:banghead:


________________

"Phydeaux, bad dog....no biscuit!"
 
<<Can someone explain to me what the internal lock is and how it works?>>

And

<<These are the offending parts. A key turns the cam which rotates the flag up, causing a post on the other side of the flag to engage a slot in the hammer thus immobilizing the hammer and preventing its movement.>>

Adding to nitesite post

Go here

http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/530103904/m/875107028/p/2


And scroll down to where the post says “internal lock”. Pictures with post are for educational purposes only. And not to be used for the removal or modification of the Gun Banning Lobbyists Locks (internal locks).

p.s. And if you want to believe that. I also have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.
 
Because he knew dam well it’s not a S&W problem, anymore. See above. Whatever in the “overhauled?” was done to it.
It’s a Jim Stroh at Alpha Precision problem now.
Click to expand...

i agree, when i read the title of the thread and the post the only thing i could see was this gun was modified and now the trigger lock does not work properly, doesnt sound like S&W's problem sounds like who ever modified the gun jacked something up.

i carry a "locking" smith and have had no poblems with, granted i think its freaking a useless POS that has no purpuse on my gun, *Edit* (im 99% positive all these locks came about from the anti gun crowd) im sure some people out there could use it. but my gun fires ever time unlocked and thats how i keep it, keys in orginal case gun loaded and ready for action.

*edit* more about the locks and anti gun crowd, man all that ANTI GUN CRAP they put in new firearms today makes me want to PUKE seriously, any one read any current ANTI GUN inserts they put in firearms, i just recently purchased a glock and almost had a fit reading that stuff
 
doesnt sound like S&W's problem sounds like who ever modified the gun jacked something up.
Click to expand...

We could blame this malfunction on the pistolsmith, save that stock S&W revolvers have done this and the pistolsmith in question has a very good reputation. Because it is modified, we can't rule out the possibility of poor gunsmithing but the evidence tends to suggest otherwise.
 
I think the S&W locks will happen, just a matter of time. Snap caps, and lots of dry firing, and, it may happen to you, like it did to me.

Problem is people use some guns about like they do fire extingushers. However,
Fire extingushers are more reliable.

S esq.
 
Michael Bane: My S&Ws Internal Lock Just Catastrophically Failed

I was on the phone this morning with Mikes Sales person Marshall,and he said that Michael sent the S&W 329 to Smith and Wesson to get checked out. I guess time will tell S&W if the locks shall be a piece of long gone history about this problem and just use the padlocks like some of the other gun manufacuters send with their guns from the factory. RichZ,Omaha,Ne.:uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::what::what::what:
 
That's something I don't understand -- the ideal "gun lock" for most handguns if you must have one is a bicycle-type (long hasp) padlock. For revolvers, open the cylinder and run the hasp through a chamber. For automatics, lock the slide back and run the hasp through the ejection port and out the magazine well.

No need for a built in lock.
 
That internal lock seems like a design turkey to me. I wouldn't buy a gun with one of those. I wouldn't even consider it. Maybe on a computer, that lock would work nicely ;)
 
If it's so good for me, how about letting me decide if I'm willing to pay for it?

It reminds me of Bill Clinton, "Ah could give y'all a tax break, but y'all'd spend it on the wrong things."

The "wrong things" -- like food, mortgage payments, school clothes for the kids and so on.
 
Here are some articles on how the internal locks came about.
Also, a reminder (articles) on how things can get worse. There is an election coming up in 08’. If a particular presidential candidate does run and wins. It will be dejavu all over again. Their will be two presidents in that office then.
These articles date back to 99’, 00’, and 01’. So, vote wisely.


SMART GUNS/FOOLISH LEGISLATORS:
FINDING THE RIGHT PUBLIC SAFETY LAWS, AND AVOIDING THE WRONG ONES

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/SmartGuns.htm#II.%20CHILDPROOFING%20GUNS:%20LOCKS%20AND%20GUN%20STORAGE%20REQUIREMENTS

Smith & Wesson's Faustian Bargain

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment032000b.html


Are Gun Locks Like Aspirin Caps?

http://www.davekopel.com/NRO/2000/Are-Gun-Locks-Like-Aspirin-Caps.htm


Get Smart

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=119&subid=157&contentid=472

Letter to Rep. McCarthy on handgun control

http://www.acponline.org/hpp/mccarthy99.htm


Gun Poll: Poll finds most Americans want trigger locks, stricter enforcement

http://www.icrsurvey.com/Study.aspx?f=AP_Guns3.html
 
<<Though others argue with me, that's the way I feel about a LOT of things, like ABS on motorcycles, air bags in cars, etc, etc, etc.>>

How about the seat belt law.
Why should people......ah. I should speak for myself. Get a ticket if I choose not to wear it ALL the time. Buckling up, is not going to prevent me from getting into an accident.

Maybe buckling up, makes me, care free, about driving.
 
I agree. heck we should also protect ourselves from fast food. Maybe we could sue McDonalds for making me heavier than I ned to be?

But, there is one thing that ticks me off more and more I think about it: Seat belts are required when driving is an infringement on liberty.......except driving is a privledge. therefore, from a legal standing point I think there is not much I can do but, pay the fine for not wearing that stupid device.

But my 2nd amd rights are not a privledge they are a right. Therefore, if a mandated lock was law it would be an infringement on my (and ours) liberty. But, the dang lock is not even required by law and still manufacturers are putting it on guns? Come on makers of guns! I know you love money more than the liberty that allows you free trade but, TAKE A STAND ON SOMETHING.....JUST ONCE IN YOUR LIFE! Heck, why not pay a bunch of extra taxes that are not required while your at it.....I mean it is inevitable that taxes will rise again. Right? So go ahead and over pay your taxes in the same light that they too will raise eventually. Oh wait. I forgot. The love of money is greater than the love of freedom.....I forgot.......My bad. You jerks!
 
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