Minie ball

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skeeterfogger

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Think I have an odd issue. Im looking at sizes of molds for 58cal minie. Find .575 and .578. I understand that sometimes sizing is required. I made a lead rod and roll pressed the end to .578. Way too tight. Took it to .575. Still way too tight
Bottom line I took it all the way down to .569 and the fit is ramable slight scrapping. So that means .005/.006 sizing. I have yet to find any molds in .569 nor anything specific to that in sizers.
Is the amount of sizing typical or excessive?
If it's not unusual I have no problem making the sizer.
I did read about L E M moulds out of UK back in biz but find nothing solid about them. Lee doesn't go below .575 nor does lyman.
All I know is if I use even a .575 I'd have to pretty much hammer it down. My land bore is right at .567. The groove bore is .583. I've been shooting .562, .020 PRB just fine. The .575 rb was too big.
 
You're tryng to stuff a .578 diameter piece of lead down a .578 barrel?

The minie was undersized bullet whose skirt expanded upon firing. That made it fit the bore

Now, if the barrel is .567, that is considerably smaller. Without referencing any catalog, I don't know who makes a conical-cylindrical expanding ball for that.
 
Like I said. There is reading that L E M UK made a .569. Reports that L E M is back in biz. But no solid signs of such that I see.
My actual question was, is sizing to -.005/-.006 excessive, typical or low?
If typical or low it's easy enough to size a .575 to .569. Something tells me it's on the high side and will probably end up with no lube grooves.
 
I'm truly fascinated. I've never encountered a Zouave (or any other "Springfield/Enfield"-like) design with that small a bore.
Who made it?
 
Its a Remington Ranson italia spa. 1975, unfired. Has .583 max, .567/.568 min.. .575 rb contacted lands approx .002/.003. .562, .020 prb shoots fine. I found it interesting a groove depth of .008. .003 more than I expected.
 
Nice info.. Bit no info on what is typical amount of sizing?

I realize that my reply below doesn't answer your question about sizing.
I have read that some folks use more than one sizing die if reducing larger diameter bullets by a lot.
Using 2 or 3 sizing dies to do it in steps is not uncommon.
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This outfit provides $$$ molds, sizers and info. about sizing.--->>> http://oldfoxtraders.com/TnMolds/index.htm

They offer a traditional .58 - 500 gr. double cavity minie mold and a .58 - 315 grain wad cutter double cavity minie mold in custom sizes.

"To achieve the utmost accuracy, it is recommended that the bullets be sized to your barrel. Best results are achieved from a properly fitting bullet.
The bullet should be cast slightly oversize and sized down to the proper size for "your" musket. Usually, you will find good accuracy if the bullet is sized .001 - .0015 under bore diameter.
Therefore, it is imperative to accurately measure your bore diameter before ordering your mold. Do not rely on published specifications for bore diameters."





 
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These are what I could find but some involve sizing for paper patched bullets.
It could depend on the size of the grooves and lube etc...you may be able to do it with one sizing die.
If someone were to try it in one step and it proved difficult, then they could add a 2nd step die in between.

1. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?247280-Step-Down-Sizing&highlight=sizing

2. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?63688-sizing-cast-bullets&highlight=sizing

3. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...-of-Bullet-Sizing-in-One-Die&highlight=sizing
 
OK. I'd recommend heading over to the North-South Skirmish Association BB, they have all the expertise on the Minie ball. If nothing else, you might want to have the barrel freshened...that's smaller than any bore I've heard of.
 
OK. I'd recommend heading over to the North-South Skirmish Association BB, they have all the expertise on the Minie ball. If nothing else, you might want to have the barrel freshened...that's smaller than any bore I've heard of.
Really don't think anything wrong with the barrel. Max is .583. It's the .008 deep of the rirling that was somewhat surprising to me but I have to consider that a plus. Its only been fired three times. Its pristine. I've been looking into finding a mould for a Pritchett mine which is .569. I find it odd that someone doesn't make it. I've seen plenty of references to it.
It's something I'll come accross eventually and shooting PRB is fine to me.
 
Well after researching till my eyes about popped out I've decided to just go with a .575 and should it present a problem I'll size it down as close as I can .002 at a time until the fit is to my liking. I know from experience the mold will throw slightly smaller so that's an advantage. Would be nice to have a piece of same barrel to size with.
 
I wonder if a Grey MMP .58 sabot for .451 - .452 bullets would fit into the bore. --->>> https://mmpsabots.com/store/58-grey-sabot/
The sabot is recommended for use with 185 - 300 grain bullets.
It could always be sanded or shaved down to fit the bore if it were too tight, but should squeeze in easy enough as is.
It would save you some headaches.
 
Really don't want to buy unless I could get one to check it out first. I know I can size the .575 to fit.
 
Sizing of any sort has potential for making bullet not uniform. That much sizing on that much pure lead?

Why not have a proper size mold made? Accurate mold #56-450BN would come close, after you hunt up a base pin, for around $100.

I bought my CVA "Big Bore Mountain Rifle" new in 1977. Bore is .570". Grove, .591", and 1in66" twist. Lee REAL bullet, "58 caliber", is the fast-loading accurate conical for me. Mold is < $30.
 
OK. I'd recommend heading over to the North-South Skirmish Association BB, they have all the expertise on the Minie ball. If nothing else, you might want to have the barrel freshened...that's smaller than any bore I've heard of.

Ok, I'm in the NSSA and compete regularly with muskets and minies. My competition musket is a repro of an 1862 Colt contract Springfield, bore dia is .580. And with the correct load, it will make one large hole at 50yds.

That said, many in our assoc use Zouaves, especially as starter muskets. That doesn't mean they can't be extremely accurate, just that they're fairly inexpensive. The issue with Zouaves is that they were made by a number of different shops and bores and quality can be all over the place. Most will shoot very well. There are only a couple brand repops that are total crap. I am currently involved in working up a number of Zouaves for a Boy Scout shooting program. All muskets measure at least .579 bore size. I have never heard of a Zouave under .575. Nearly all are "large" at about .578-9 and I've heard of some going up to .583.

I have several sizing suggestions- first be sure of the bore size. How? Get pin gauges. They're pretty cheap as you'll only need a couple sizes to find out. You could also take it to a local machine shop and have them check. Past that, go to Lodgewood (one of our supporting vendors) and look at the bullets page. You can order sample minies of various sizes for testing before buying a mold and sizer die.

Getting a mold- IF you are so fortunate as to have one of those Zouaves that truly takes a .575-7 minie, there are a couple cheapo Lee molds. My experience here, you get what you pay for. I have molds from Lee, NOE, Oldfoxtraders, Moose, Lyman, RCBS and Rapine. Depends on the gun as to which mold is in use. For muskets, my Parker Hale likes the RCBS Hogdon sized to .576 and is a sub 2moa gun. The Colt likes .580 Rapine "Trashcans". My Smith likes the Moose. My Sharps, Oldfox. Of my competition guns, only the Parker Hale will shoot anything from Lee, and that is the "competition minie" and that mold is sadly, not longer in production. NO other Lee bullet will shoot in ANY of my guns satisfactorily.

Now back to Zouaves. Because they're made by a number of different shops, the rifling twist rate can vary. There are some Zouaves that will absolutely not shoot any of the lighter minies. I have one in my possession at the moment for the Scout project that will not shoot anything lighter than 500gr. The others are fine with the RCBS Hogdon (375gr) sized to 579 and all of them will put 10 shots in a row into 2in at 50yds. They could probably be tighter, but for Scout use, 4moa is absolutley good enough, especially since we're talking 10 shots with no wiping or any form of bore maintenance between shots. That way, we can keep the muskets on the line with the boys for longer stretches.

A couple final comments, use ONLY pure lead for minies otherwise, the skirts will not reliably expand to grab the rifling. DON'T get caught up putting in more and more powder. Best accuracy is generally in the 60-75% range if the service charge of 60gr and yes, you can use 3f in a musket. Minie lube is an issue of extensive discussion with us, most use some form of beeswax/crisco/lard/oliveoil. Avoid Alox, it don't play nice with black powder.

Last of all, welcome to the addiction. Have fun with the Zouave. It can be a fine shooter when you get the combination right.
 
Here's a link to just one of our threads on Zouaves, in this case, referencing those made by FIE

https://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/showt...pro-Zuoave?s=13a444c9745aa0e1589c297413f09ee2

It's not allowed in our competition because it has a brazed bolster and could possibly fail during firing with bad things happening to the shooter. Fortunately, these are fairly few and are not in production. The Zouaves of choice are usually a Zoli.
 
Turned out the .575 will start to top ridge with thumb pressure. Comes out of mold right at .574. Starter is mild slap. Ram is smooth but scrapes all the way. Think I'm good to go. Test fired 2 out back and no issues.
 
Don't forget lube. Crisco will be fine for starters but other stuff is much better. You'll find they start easier if they're lubed. DO NOT put lube in the base. If you have to do that, something isn't quite right with the lube you're using. I highly recommend beeswax/lard or tallow, 60/40. Start you powder charges off light at about 38gr and start working up in 5gr increments. When you find one that shoots pretty good, then try about 2gr either side of that. You'll probably find that best accuracy is in the range of 60% of service charge, so about 40-45gr.

Good luck and lets us know how it's going.
 
Recommended military load for this rifle in which mini and maxi were the goto is 60gns. Test show it is nail driver at 65 using PRB and 60 for mini.
 
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