Missouri Legislature Nullifies All Federal Gun Control

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In fact, the U. S. Supreme Court has consistently rejected State attempts to nullify federal law.

Frank,

I know there have been several cases in which states attempted to nullify Supreme Court rulings which the Court ruled the states could not do, and several cases in which states attempted to pass and enforce state laws contrary to federal law which the Courts ruled the states can not do, but I am not aware that there has been any case in which the Court has actually ruled against a State's assertion of a 10th amendment right to nullify a legislative act or executive order by declaring such to be unconstitutional. I admit my research has not been exhaustive so I welcome any additional information and specific case references.

Daniel Webster, in his second reply to Hayne in 1830 did indeed outline the position that you have laid out. But for all of its clarity, it is only Webster's opinion, not the opinion of the Supreme Court. When SC nullified the tariffs of 1828 and 1832, Pres. Jackson expressed the same opinion and threatened to send federal troops to enforce the tariffs The crisis ended when Congress enacted a compromise tariff bill and the question of a state's authority to nullify federal law remained unresolved.

The current situation appears to me to be this:

The Constitution does not contain any clause providing that the states have the power to find federal laws unconstitutional. But it also does not contain any clause explicitly denying them that power. Thus, under the 10th amendment, that power may be reserved to the states...or it may not be.

Under the Supremacy Clause of Article VI, the Constitution and federal laws adopted in pursuance thereof are the "supreme law of the land…any thing in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding."

But that only applies to "federal laws adopted in pursuance [of the Constitution]". IOW, laws that are constitutional. In exercising nullification, a state is saying that the law in unconstitutional and therefore is not protected by the Supremacy clause.

Granted, the Supreme Court is the final arbiter of constitutionality, but does that make it the only arbiter? SCOTUS and lower courts have held that states may not nullify a SCOTUS decision so that upholds SCOTUS as final arbiter, but just as a federal law has force of law until the Court rules otherwise, so does a state act of nullification. It nullifies federal law until SCOTUS rules otherwise or SCOTUS rules that a state may not nullify an act of Congress which it has yet to do.

Now, that is the basis (or at least, a basis) for state acts of nullification. Is it valid? I think not. I think Webster got it right in his 2nd reply to Hayne. But it would be helpful is SCOTUS would clearly confirm it.
 
RPRNY said:
...those who keep citing this clause seem to miss that the supremacy is dependent on Federal laws being legal under the Constitution. Missouri's new law will be perfectly valid in nullifying Federal laws that are at odds with the Constitution....
No, we understand that. But as I, and others, have pointed out repeatedly, the question of the constitutionality of a federal law is one for the federal courts, not a state legislature.

In fact that very question was specifically addressed and decided against the State in Bush v. Orleans Parish School Board, 188 F. Supp. 916 (E.D. La. 1960), aff'd 364 U.S. 500 (1960).
 
I appreciate the debate.

Frank Ettin said:
That plus 200 years of U. S. Supreme Court precedent rejecting nullification. You, on the other hand, have not cited a single case.

I am citing history, and rightful remedies to Constitutional disputes from the horses mouth (Jefferson & Madison). You can't make claims ("provided for by the Founding Fathers" & "as the Founding Fathers intended" & "as the Founding Fathers provided in the Constitutions (Article III)" and then reject what they actually said, substituting what some Judge(s) said that you agree with more. If you are going to say the Founders asserted, believed in, intended, or agreed with the powers you claim SCOTUS discovered it has, I'm simply asking for some historical references from said Founders backing up those claims.

Frank Ettin said:
And I have. See the citations to U. S. Supreme Court cases rejecting nullification.
...
None of which has been upheld by the U. S. Supreme Court.
...
Phooey. What I have is over 200 years of Constitutional jurisprudence. In the real world that will be the basis upon which courts will be deciding future cases.
...
No, Jefferson was wrong about Marshall's opinion in Marbury being null and void. What has proven Jefferson wrong is the Marshall's opinion has continued to be applied in the deciding of subsequent cases. It in fact has helped shape the entire history of constitutional jurisprudence and has thus affected the ways in which courts have ruled, affecting the lives and property or real people in the real world, for over 200 years. That doesn't sound very "null and void" to me.

What if you're wrong, and Thomas Jefferson was right? Could that be a possibility?

I'm reminded of a quote:

"It wasn't the world being round that agitated people, but that the world wasn't flat. When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic." - Dresden James

Frank Ettin said:
In other words, the U. S. Supreme Court has never ruled in a way that would support your contentions. And thus your view rests entirely on wishful thinking.

I think we just disagree on SCOTUS being an infallible arbitrator. I know, and I think you know, Jefferson and Madison would strongly disagree that they are, or should be, the final word on "Constitutionality."

Frank Ettin said:
I should have addressed this earlier.

In any case, while Jefferson might have believed that, he was wrong. The U. S. Supreme Court indeed ruled that a State could not unilaterally secede from the Union (Texas v. White, et al, 74 U.S. 700, 19 L.Ed. 227, 7 Wall. 700 (1868)).
...
They probably don't. But that doesn't matter. Ultimately the rulings of the U. S. Supreme Court will be the final statements of the law.

Yes, the Court has upheld terrible laws, but --
It's not necessarily the province of a court to decide if a law is good or not. It's the province of a court to apply the law to decide the dispute before it. But the fact is that a great many improper, unwise, useless or dangerous things the government can do would be found by a court to be entirely constitutional. Being constitutional is not a guaranteed of wisdom.

The Supreme Court can, and has on rare occasion, reversed itself or carved out a better result by distinguishing a current case from a past, perhaps unsuitable, precedent.

All branches of government, both state and federal, can make bad decisions. Congress and state legislatures have passed lousy laws, and federal and state executives have done really dumb things. That's why we have elections and a system of checks and balances.

The bottom line is that you have laid out a lot of interesting historical information. But none of it really relates to how things are going to be worked out and decided here and now. Perhaps such things would be material in an alternate universe; but in our real world, not so much.

And you agree with that assertion by SCOTUS? That the states which created the Union cannot withdraw? What sense would that make? The Union that the states themselves created also has final say on its powers?

Again, we just disagree on history vs. accepted reality. I understand where you're coming from.

Do you really believe we have a system of checks and balances? And that voting matters? When is the last time your vote broke a tie or carried a particular issue?

I think I'll just leave it there. Again, I appreciate the debate. I am glad you found some of the historical information to be interesting. Cheers. :)
 
JRH6856 said:
...The Constitution does not contain any clause providing that the states have the power to find federal laws unconstitutional. But it also does not contain any clause explicitly denying them that power. Thus, under the 10th amendment, that power may be reserved to the states...or it may not be...
Now someone else gets to try to cite a case. So how about citing a case that in any way supports the notion that the Tenth Amendment in anyway suggests that a power to declare a federal law unconstitutional might be reserved to a State?

On the other hand, as set out in Bush v. Orleans Parish School Board, 188 F. Supp. 916 (E.D. La. 1960), aff'd 364 U.S. 500 (1960), 188 F. Supp. 916, at 924--926:
...Assuming always that the claim of interposition is an appeal to legality, the inquiry is who, under the Constitution, has the final say on questions of constitutionality, who delimits the Tenth Amendment. In theory, the issue might have been resolved in several ways. But, as a practical matter, under our federal system the only solution short of anarchy was to assign the function to one supreme court. That the final decision should rest with the judiciary rather than the legislature was inherent in the concept of constitutional government in which legislative acts are subordinate to the paramount organic law, and, if only to avoid "a hydra in government from which nothing but contradiction and confusion can proceed," final authority had to be centralized in a single national court. The Federalist, Nos. 78, 80, 81, 82. As Madison said before the adoption of the Constitution: "Some such tribunal is clearly essential to prevent an appeal to the sword and a dissolution of the compact; and that it ought to be established under the general rather than under the local governments, or, to speak more properly, that it could be safely established under the first alone, is a position not likely to be combated." The Federalist, No. 39.

And so, from the beginning, it was decided that the Supreme Court of the United States must be the final arbiter on questions of constitutionality. It is of course the guardian of the Constitution against encroachments by the national Congress. Marbury v. Madison, supra. But more important to our discussion is the constitutional role of the Court with regard to state acts. The original Judiciary Act of 1789 confirmed the authority of the Supreme Court to review the judgments of all state tribunals on constitutional questions. Act of Sept. 24, 1789, § 25, 1 Stat. 73, 85. See Martin v. Hunter's Lessee, supra; Worcester v. Georgia, 6 Pet. 515, 31 U.S. 515, 8 L.Ed. 483; Cohens v. Virginia, 6 Wheat. 264, 19 U.S. 264, 5 L.Ed. 257; Ableman v. Booth, 21 How. 506, 62 U.S. 506, 16 L.Ed. 169. Likewise from the first one of its functions was to pass on the constitutionality of state laws. Fletcher v. Peck, 6 Cranch 87, 10 U.S. 87, 3 L.Ed. 162; M'Culloch v. Maryland, 4 Wheat. 316, 17 U.S. 316, 4 L.Ed. 579. And the duty of the Court with regard to the acts of the state executive is no different. Sterling v. Constantin, 287 U.S. 378, 53 S.Ct. 190, 77 L.Ed. 375; Cooper v. Aaron, 358 U.S. 1, 78 S.Ct. 1401, 3 L.Ed.2d 5. The fact is that the Constitution itself established the Supreme Court of the United States as the final tribunal for constitutional adjudication. By definition, there can be no appeal from its decisions.

The initial conclusion is obvious enough. Plainly, the states, whose proceedings are subject to revision by the Supreme Court, can no more pretend to review that Court's decision on constitutional questions than an inferior can dispute the ruling of an appellate court. From this alone "it follows that the interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment enunciated by the Supreme Court in the Brown case is the supreme law of the land, and that Art. VI of the Constitution makes it of binding effect on the States `any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.'" Cooper v. Aaron, supra, 358 U.S. 18, 78 S.Ct. 1410.

But this is not all. From the fact that the Supreme Court of the United States rather than any state authority is the ultimate judge of constitutionality, another consequence of equal importance results. It is that the jurisdiction of the lower federal courts and the correctness of their decisions on constitutional questions cannot be reviewed by the state governments. Indeed, since the appeal from their rulings lies to the Supreme Court of the United States, as the only authoritative constitutional tribunal, neither the executive, nor the legislature, nor even the courts of the state, have any competence in the matter. It necessarily follows that, pending review by the Supreme Court, the decisions of the subordinate federal courts on constitutional questions have the authority of the supreme law of the land and must be obeyed. Assuredly, this is a great power, but a necessary one. See United States v. Peters, supra, 5 Cranch 135, 136, 9 U.S. 135, 136.

Apprehensive of the validity of the proposition that the Constitution is a compact of states, interposition asserts that at least a ruling challenged by a state should be suspended until the people can ratify it by constitutional amendment. But this invocation of "constitutional processes" is a patent subterfuge. Unlike open nullification, it is defiance hiding under the cloak of apparent legitimacy. The obvious flaw in the argument lies in the unfounded insistence that pending a vote on the proposed amendment the questioned decision must be voided. Even assuming their good faith in proposing an amendment against themselves, the interpositionists want too much. Without any semblance of legality, they claim the right at least temporarily to annul the judgment of the highest court, and, should they succeed in defeating the amendment proposed, they presume to interpret that victory as voiding forever the challenged decision. It requires no elaborate demonstration to show that this is a preposterous perversion of Article V of the Constitution. Certainly the Constitution can be amended "to overrule" the Supreme Court. But there is nothing in Article V that justifies the presumption that what has authoritatively been declared to be the law ceases to be the law while the amendment is pending, or that the non-ratification of an amendment alters the Constitution or any decisions rendered under it.

The conclusion is clear that interposition is not a constitutional doctrine. If taken seriously, it is illegal defiance of constitutional authority. Otherwise, "it amounted to no more than a protest, an escape valve through which the legislators blew off steam to relieve their tensions." Shuttlesworth v. Birmingham Board of Education, D.C.N.D. Ala., 162 F.Supp. 372, 381. However solemn or spirited, interposition resolutions have no legal efficacy. ...

And as the Supreme Court stated (364 U.S. 500, at 500--501) affirming Bush:
...PER CURIAM. These are motions for stay of an injunction by a three-judge District Court which nullified a series of enactments of the State of Louisiana. The scope of these enactments and the basis on which they were found in conflict with the Constitution of the United States are not matters of doubt. The nub of the decision of the three-judge court is this: 'The conclusion is clear that interposition is not a constitutional doctrine. If taken seriously, it is illegal defiance of constitutional authority.' Bush v. Orleans Parish School Board (United States v. State of Louisiana), D.C., 188 F.Supp. 916, 926. The main basis for challenging this ruling is that the State of Louisiana 'has interposed itself in the field of public education over which it has exclusive control.' This objection is without substance, as we held, upon full consideration, in Cooper v. Aaron, 358 U.S. 1, 78 S.Ct. 1401, 3 L.Ed.2d 5. The others are likewise without merit. Accordingly, the motions for stay are denied...
 
MJU1983 said:
I am citing history, and rightful remedies to Constitutional disputes from the horses mouth (Jefferson & Madison). You can't make claims ("provided for by the Founding Fathers" & "as the Founding Fathers intended" & "as the Founding Fathers provided in the Constitutions (Article III)" and then reject what they actually said, substituting what some Judge(s) said that you agree with more....
I'm not citing history. I'm not arguing history. I'm citing law, and arguing law.

These matters will be decided not by history, but rather by law.

MJU1983 said:
...What if you're wrong, and Thomas Jefferson was right? Could that be a possibility?

I'm reminded of a quote:

"It wasn't the world being round that agitated people, but that the world wasn't flat. When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic." ...
As demonstrated by over 200 years of constitutional jurisprudence, no. The fact is that Marbury as been a part of the law and had a real effect on the real world for some 200 years. On the the basis of that matter of fact, any assertion that Marbury is "null and void" is preposterous.

And furthermore your attempt to analogize the question of the validity of Marbury to the belief that the earth was flat is utterly specious.

The shape of the earth is a matter of objective, physical reality.
 
Frank Ettin said:
Now someone else gets to try to cite a case. So how about citing a case that in any way supports the notion that the Tenth Amendment in anyway suggests that a power to declare a federal law unconstitutional might be reserved to a State?

I can't cite a case on a question that has yet to be heard. That is my question. Has SCOTUS ever actually ruled on this in re a law that has not been previously subjected to judicial review by SCOTUS?

On the other hand, as set out in Bush v. Orleans Parish School Board, 188 F. Supp. 916 (E.D. La. 1960), aff'd 364 U.S. 500 (1960), 188 F. Supp. 916, at 924--926:

But Bush v Orleans Parish SB is yet another case where a state attempted to nullify a previous SCOTUS ruling (Brown v. BOE and actually, it was a case of interposition, not nullification.) There is no question that SCOTUS has addressed its own supremacy as final arbiter of law so this does not answer the question I posed regarding state power to nullify law which has not been the subject of prior SCOTUS review.
 
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Frank Ettin said:
I'm not citing history. I'm not arguing history. I'm citing law, and arguing law.

These matters will be decided not by history, but rather by law.

But that's not what I asked, nor is it what you claimed. FWIW I think history, especially constitutional history, is more important than studying case law.

Frank Ettin said:
As demonstrated by over 200 years of constitutional jurisprudence, no. The fact is that Marbury as been a part of the law and had a real effect on the real world for some 200 years. On the the basis of that matter of fact, any assertion that Marbury is "null and void" is preposterous.

And furthermore your attempt to analogize the question of the validity of Marbury to the belief that the earth was flat is utterly specious.

The shape of the earth is a matter of objective, physical reality.

You, and most lawyers, put a lot of faith in that case. What exactly does obiter dictum mean?

It was just a quote. That's how I feel. ;)
 
MJU1983 said:
...I know, and I think you know, Jefferson and Madison would strongly disagree that they are, or should be, the final word on "Constitutionality....
No, actually I don't know anything of the sort, at least with regard to Madison's views. In fact, see the lengthy portion of the court of appeal's decision in Bush, 188 F. Supp. 916, where the court noted, at 924:
...As Madison said before the adoption of the Constitution: "Some such tribunal is clearly essential to prevent an appeal to the sword and a dissolution of the compact; and that it ought to be established under the general rather than under the local governments, or, to speak more properly, that it could be safely established under the first alone, is a position not likely to be combated." The Federalist, No. 39....

MJU1983 said:
...FWIW I think history, especially constitutional history, is more important than studying case law...
Think what you like. But your thinking something doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Decisions will be made by courts based on established legal principles, not your view of history. If one wants to anticipate how courts will decide matters in the future, he must study and understand how courts have decided matters in the past.

JRH6856 said:
...I can't cite a case on a question that has yet to be heard. That is my question. Has SCOTUS ever actually ruled on this in re a law that has not been previously subjected to judicial review by SCOTUS?...
Osborn v. Bank of the United States, 22 U.S. 738 (1824) ruling against the State of Ohio's attempt to levy a tax on the Bank of the United States and Prigg v. Pennsylvania, 41 U.S. 539 (1842) finding, in effect, that a Pennsylvania law in conflict with the federal Fugitive Slave Act was invalid come to mind.
 
These matters will be decided not by history, but rather by law.

Says the lawyer, relating to the opinions of dead lawyers, all of whom operate as if the courts are the final arbitrer. An important role, no doubt, whilst the compact prevails. However, lest they forget that they are not the final arbitrer, and are only given the opportunity by the consent of the governed, it is indeed key to note the implied double edge of Madison's quote above:

"Some such tribunal is clearly essential to prevent an appeal to the sword and a dissolution of the compact

Lawyers are valuable until the compact collapses. Such is, and has always been the way of the world. If Missouri succeeds in offering a gentle reminder of this 'history lesson' all the better.
 
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Frank Ettin said:
Osborn v. Bank of the United States, 22 U.S. 738 (1824) ruling against the State of Ohio's attempt to levy a tax on the Bank of the United States and Prigg v. Pennsylvania, 41 U.S. 539 (1842) finding, in effect, that a Pennsylvania law in conflict with the federal Fugitive Slave Act was invalid come to mind.

But again, from what I can find, Osborn is not a case in which a state sought explicitly to nullify an act of Congress. And the same in Prigg. The state law did not explicitly nullify federal law, it just contradicted it as you noted. Furthermore, it was the Constitution itself (Article IV, Section 2, Clause 2), as well as the Fugitive Slave Act, that Pennsylvania law contradicted. Because of Article IV, Section 2, Clause 2, the constitutionality of the Fugitive Slave Act was clear, even if the morality was questionable.
 
Frank Ettin,

I have considered responding several times. I don't doubt your expertise, but I do disagree with your attitude. One thing is certain; if we only continue to do do the same things (that is, to not attempt to push boundaries), we will continue to get the same result. It's easy to get lost in "How things are done around here" and lose sight of "How things could be better".

"We've been making sand by banging two rocks together for generations." Well, does that mean it is the "right" or "best" way to do it, or are we just doing it as a matter of precedent? I don't believe that our system is operating according to what our Constitution mandates, and my choice is to either accept that or work to fix it. We need a more effective means of keeping Federal power within Constitutional limits, because what we have been doing is not enough. We need a more effective check on Federal encroachment. Is it nullification? Maybe, or maybe not. A repository of absolute foreknowledge, I am not.

I think this bill does good things, many of which have been discussed here. The only aspect I think is dubious is trying to prevent enforcement by Federal authorities (in the case of this bill, by making it a misdemeanor for them to do so). If anything, we set the stage for an actual court challenge, something that wouldn't happen if we weren't pushing the envelope.

History is filled with things that "couldn't happen". Sometimes, if only by shear numerical probability, they do. If it becomes law, we need to figure out how best to make it work.
I still say we need a like BUTTON................
 
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JRH6856 said:
But again, from what I can find, Osborn is not a case in which a state sought explicitly to nullify an act of Congress...
As is often the case, it's possible to hypothesize a particular set of facts that hasn't precisely been addressed by a court. The bottom line, however, is we have very robust U. S. Supreme Court precedent supporting the Supremacy Clause, and States have not had any real success nullifying federal law.

If the goal of a State is to test the constitutionality of a federal law, there are other avenues available. A State, for example, could challenge the constitutionality of a federal statute by filing a lawsuit in federal court seeking to declare the federal law unconstitutional. See "Why Virginia's Challenges to the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act Did Not Invoke Nullification," 46 U. Richmond Law Review 917, 949 (2012). Such an approach appropriately recognizes the final jurisdiction of the federal courts to decide the question.

Or as Madison wrote in Federalist 39 (since MJU1983 is so fond of the "history" dimension):
...It is true that in controversies relating to the boundary between the two jurisdictions, the tribunal which is ultimately to decide, is to be established under the general government...
 
As is often the case, it's possible to hypothesize a particular set of facts that hasn't precisely been addressed by a court. The bottom line, however, is we have very robust U. S. Supreme Court precedent supporting the Supremacy Clause, and States have not had any real success nullifying federal law.

Yes, I understand that. As I see it, the cases I have found or been referred to do two things:

1. Confirm SCOTUS as final arbiter or matters of law and constitutionality

2. Confirm supremacy of federal law enacted persuant to the Constitution.​

And I am not questioning either of those. But they do not address the power of the state to act as an intermediate arbiter of constitutionality. Previous state actions in this vein have been rendered moot by legislative compromise before reaching SCOTUS so there has never been a ruling on this question, the most famous being the Nullification Crises of 1832.

If the goal of a State is to test the constitutionality of a federal law, there are other avenues available. A State, for example, could challenge the constitutionality of a federal statute by filing a lawsuit in federal court seeking to declare the federal law unconstitutional. See "Why Virginia's Challenges to the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act Did Not Invoke Nullification," 46 U. Richmond Law Review 917, 949 (2012). Such an approach appropriately recognizes the final jurisdiction of the federal courts to decide the question.

So in absence of a ruling to the contrary, legislative nullification, while not the most desirable or noncontroversial method, appears to remain a viable method of getting the issue to SCOTUS.

If SCOTUS rules against the states power to invoke legislative nullification, then the states have the option of invoking Jackson's response to Worcester v. Georgia: "John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it!" (Of course, as chief executive, Jackson was the enforcement arm of the Court, an advantage the states do not have.)
 
Gaiudo said:
These matters will be decided not by history, but rather by law.

Says the lawyer, relating to the opinions of dead lawyers, all of whom operate as if the courts are the final arbitrer. An important role, no doubt, whilst the compact prevails. However, lest they forget that they are not the final arbitrer, and are only given the opportunity by the consent of the governed, it is indeed key to note the implied double edge of Madison's quote above:

Some such tribunal is clearly essential to prevent an appeal to the sword and a dissolution of the compact

Lawyers are valuable until the compact collapses. Such is, and has always been the way of the world. If Missouri succeeds in offering a gentle reminder of this 'history lesson' all the better.

Luckily for us, our Founders, many lawyers themselves, put more stock in history than The Law. Otherwise, we would still be British subjects, since rebellion was, like, illegal and stuff.
 
JRH6856 said:
...But they do not address the power of the state to act as an intermediate arbiter of constitutionality...
In that sense, each individual is an "intermediate arbiter" of the constitutionality of any law he disagrees with -- at least as long as he gets away with it. But there's a difference between getting away with something and being correct. One can really only be "correct" when his actions pass whatever in the context the final test might be. Here the final test is in the U. S. Supreme Court, and the core issue is the likelihood of surviving that particular test.

JRH6856 said:
...So in absence of a ruling to the contrary, legislative nullification, while not the most desirable or noncontroversial method, appears to remain a viable method of getting the issue to SCOTUS...
As a matter of sound litigation tactic, it really is not. If the goal is to actually test the constitutionality of a federal law, there are far better ways to go about it.

One key to a good "test case" is that it has a narrow focus so you can actually test what you want to test, especially if what you want to test is controversial. Often a court will be able to decide a dispute on peripheral or procedural issues and thus avoid grappling with a more significant or controversial issue.

The proper end to litigation is a final decision resolving the dispute -- not necessarily clarification of a difficult point of law. If what you're trying to do is get that difficult point of law clarified, you need to set up the litigation so the only way the dispute can be decided is by doing so. That's how both Heller and McDonald were approached.

But litigation arising from an attempt of a State to by statute nullify federal law is likely to bring in all manner of extraneous issues. It's going to most likely focus on the nullification issues.

JRH6856 said:
...If SCOTUS rules against the states power to invoke legislative nullification, then the states have the option of invoking Jackson's response to Worcester v. Georgia: "John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it!"...
Really now? Have you forgotten --

  • in 1960 when U. S. Marshals escorted a black girl to school in New Orleans, Louisiana.

  • in 1963 when George Wallace attempted to block the desegregation of the University of Alabama. He was confronted by federal marshals, Deputy Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach, and the Alabama Army National Guard and forced to step aside.

  • in 1963 when Wallace again attempted to stop four black students from enrolling in segregated elementary schools in Huntsville. Then the intervention of a federal court in Birmingham got the four students enrolled.
It would be one thing for a federal executive to decline to enforce an order of a federal court (which appears to have happened only the one time you refer to), and another thing entirely for a federal executive to permit a state authority to flout an order of a federal court.
 
316SS said:
Luckily for us, our Founders, many lawyers themselves, put more stock in history than The Law. Otherwise, we would still be British subjects, since rebellion was, like, illegal and stuff.
It depends on whether the goal is to preserve our nation or destroy it. Which do you want to do?
 
Based on the recent actions by several states (Missouri the latest), it appears to me that those who would pass and attempt to enforce laws at the national level which encroach upon constitutional rights are the ones on a path to destroy it.
 
Frank Ettin said:
It depends on whether the goal is to preserve our nation or destroy it. Which do you want to do?

That is a false choice. My goal is to preserve the natural rights and liberty of myself and my fellows, the same as our Founders.

“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” -Frederic Bastiat

Our system of laws was conceived for the purpose of protecting individual liberty. If it no longer serves that purpose, its value must be questioned.

“The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground.”

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny." -Thomas Jefferson
 
Really now? Have you forgotten --

  • in 1960 when U. S. Marshals escorted a black girl to school in New Orleans, Louisiana.

  • in 1963 when George Wallace attempted to block the desegregation of the University of Alabama. He was confronted by federal marshals, Deputy Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach, and the Alabama Army National Guard and forced to step aside.

  • in 1963 when Wallace again attempted to stop four black students from enrolling in segregated elementary schools in Huntsville. Then the intervention of a federal court in Birmingham got the four students enrolled.

Interesting. We really are sheep aren't we? If the citizens of LA or AL truly believed in segregation seems to me the Marshals would have been waaay outnumbered.

There are a lot of voices, here and elsewhere, that claim they would fight to the death but how many really would? Would you really shoot Deputy Dawg, who's son plays on your sons Little League team, if he knocked on the door and said he was there to take your gun?

MO can pass all the laws they want but if they can't back them up they're just making love to themselves.
 
Really now? Have you forgotten --

...

It would be one thing for a federal executive to decline to enforce an order of a federal court (which appears to have happened only the one time you refer to), and another thing entirely for a federal executive to permit a state authority to flout an order of a federal court.

No, I haven't forgotten, which is why I said the states would not have the advantage. (And if you haven't noticed, I have consistently maintained that SCOTUS should be the final arbiter... and is, short of rebellion. And no, I'm not advocating rebellion. :rolleyes:
 
now that is cool! if we get enough states to do this, the feds, and the anti gun movement will be forced to back down. like it or not. personally, :):):):):
 
Our system of laws was conceived for the purpose of protecting individual liberty. If it no longer serves that purpose, its value must be questioned.

The Constitution is based in the theory of natural rights put forth by primarily by John Locke among others. The ideas put forth depend on a deontological system of ethics in which each individual has a duty to respect and obey a higher authority than themselves, be it God, Divine Providence, Nature or a Constitution and the individual has a duty and responsibility to respect and defend the natural rights of every individual. An action is "good" only to the extent that it protects or does not infringe upon natural rights.

Modern Progressivism, for the most part, is based in a teleological system of ethics which denies the existence of natural rights or natural law. The most common form is Consequentialism as expressed by Jeremy Bentham (who penned the English opposition to the Declaration of Independence) and the Utilitarianism of John Stuart Mill. Under this system, an action is good if it produces "the greatest good for the greatest number" which means rights of individuals or minorities may be sacrificed for the good of the majority. But that is acceptable because the good that is achieved justifies whatever means may be necessary to achieve it.

The ethics of an individual are deeply personal--so much so that most people rarely examine or question their ethics, they just act on them. A person really can't change their ethics without fundamentally changing the way they look at the world they live in. This is something that few people do consciously or willingly.

As a nation, we are in the midst of a conflict of ethics in which each side sees the actions of the other as clearly unethical and thus unacceptable and not subject to compromise.

We do live in interesting times.
 
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