(MO) Police Ditch Shotguns for Rifles

[balletto]

re: SLMPD's new Beretta carbines

As of at least 2000, the SLMPD carried Beretta handguns, I don't know if they still do, so I suppose they could still have a goodly collection of Beretta 92 magazines available.

There were some reports floating around a few years ago that they were going to get rid of the Beretta pistols as they were getting a bit old and worn, but I'm not sure what became of that idea.

Speaking as someone who did some computer consulting at the SLMPD in 1999-2000, and who met Chief Mokwa before he became chief, he always struck me as a real stand-up guy. Don't underestimate the amount of politics that you have to deal with as you move up the ladder, especially in a city police force that's managed like the SLMPD. Compromises to the liberal elements in the city eg) melting down old shotguns, may earn you the clout to do other more important things.

Due to scandals from a long long long time ago, the city police department is actually run by a police board that is appointed by the Governor of Missouri. The St. Louis mayor has a seat on the board, but doesn't necessarily get to dictate what goes on in the police force; 4 or 5 appointed officials do. You can imagine the potential for politics with that many people having a say in what goes on.

 

[DillHarris]

If the Chief of Police says that the guns will be destroyed then that probably is a true statement.

Um, probably so, but the police department has already been busted a couple times this year for under reporting crimes. I think there was a big article in the paper about it this past weekend. A few months ago there was the whole issue of 5000 unreported crimes. "Gee, those just got lost in the new system." was what Mokwa said. I'm sure it didn't have anything to do with the fact that St. Louis was listed as the 4th highest crime city and the extra crimes would have moved us to 3rd. Hell, now that concealed carry's legal I say disarm the police completely.

 

[scout26]

Hmmmm. Am I'm the only one that noticed that those officers are facing the WRONG way on the range ????

 

[fistful]

The 870's that are in use by almost every department in the country don't have optics, and many of departments that are buying AR's with their Homeland Security money aren't buying optics either.

Let's not compare shotguns with rifles in this particular, as a shotgun is used for close ranges where scopes are less useful. What certain units are buying or not buying does not prove the wisdom of their choice. It could mean they don't have the cash for scopes yet. It could mean they should have bought a less expensive weapon that fires a stouter cartridge. Even so, I think a better choice than the Garand could have been found. By the way, I like old-fashioned guns with peep sights, but that doesn't mean I'd outfit a rural police department with the Garand.

An EOTECH with batteries on a weapon designed to be left in the trunk of a car is just something to fail before you have to use it.

Seperate issue.

I'm not sure I would want to try to put down a wounded feral cow in the roadway with a 9mm. I bet that doesn't happen often in St. Louis, but I wasn't recommending Garands for St Louis.

I saw that you were talking about rural areas, and I don't recommend nine millimeter for much, either.

Have you used the irons on a Garand at distance? A torso sized target at 300m was part of the qualification course completed by hundreds of thousands of military personnel through the 50's.

The rifle qualification course still includes "a torso sized target at 300m" (I last took it this spring) but I doubt I've ever hit it. I have never fired a Garand, but I do have a Czech Mauser with an aperture sight and in the same caliber. Even with its light, single-stage trigger, I would have trouble hitting a 300-yard target with this arrangement. Wanna bet there are a lot of cops as near-sighted and as a bad a shot as I am, who would really benefit from a scope? Then there is the question of lights and lasers. The Garand just happens to be a product of it's time - it's not set up to carry the equipment that LE desires these days.

 

[Nightcrawler]

BTW: Why 9mm? Isn't one of the main reasons for getting rifles in the first place to penetrate body armor if needed?

Not really. Criminals very rarely wear body armor. Everyone points to the famous North Hollywood shootout, but other than that there are few incidents in which body armor was worn by the bad guys.

In any case, one could argue that if the bank robbers are going to wear armor, they're going to anticipate the cops using rifles and will wear rifle plates to protect them from that.

I don't know if I'd completely replace rifles with the carbines. Ideally, your squad car would have two long arms, a rifle and a shotgun. Two or three man rifle/shotgun teams have proved themselves very effective since the Phillippine Insurrection.

 

[ckyllo]

i think a better choice for a cop car rifle would be the Remington Model 7615P pump action patrol rifle. same controls as the 870 pump, same operation as the 870, and will fit in the 870 holder and uses common ar-15 mags. dont know what the price is but it must be cheaper than the storm.

http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm

 

[TheEgg]

It seems silly to me. The obvious arrangement should be shotguns in a locking mount in the car, and an AR-15/M-16 in the trunk, available when/if needed. Specially trained marksmen on the force would substitute precision .308 rifles for the AR-15. You then have a flexible and at-hand battery to reply to the vast majority of police calls.

I know a lot of departments follow this model, and from what I have heard from the rank and file, they feel it works.

Replacing a 12 g with a pistol caliber popgun just seems like moving down in utility?????? Makes no sense.

 

[akodo]

yes, the 12 guage is going to be a much more effective weapon in a close quarters fight, and switching to slugs, you have something that can reach out and get some work done.

However, i think this change is all about recoil sensitivity. And it isn't just mrs female officer, its the inclusion of a lot of smaller males in attempts to racially diversify the force. (I live in st paul, and let me tell you, the Hmong people are SMALL) as well as fewer people being exposed to shooting in the first place, and most people being even more pantywaste coddled than ever before in history. (a 12 guage recoil isn't so bad if you have to pump your water by hand and then lug it up the hill to the house every day...then go chop some wood)

That being said, a 9mm carbine is going to give a little more whapam and a lot more user accuracy than a handgun. And if 12 guage shotguns are being left beind because the officer is intimidated by the recoil, then while i would choose issuing 20 guages, properly fitting the stocks, and increasing training time, i can understand why the move to 9mm carbines.

Of course, winchester 94s in .357 magnum would be even better.

On a somewhat related side note, i am sure you guys have seen that new remington 7615. For those of you who haven;'t or the brain is slow in retreaving that info, it is the standard pump action rifle (7600) chambered in .223, combined with the ability to accept standard AR-15 magazines, pictured most often with a 30 rounder. The idea is to have a gun that is as similar to the shotgun as possible, for ease of retraining, as well as to make it as no thought as possible when you reach for one or the other if you squadcar is so equipped.

Side benifit, is not an evil black assault rifle, except it looks enough like one that all the people who freak out in ignorance about assault rifles will do the same here.

Medium okay idea IMHO.

Better would have been to simply go with a model 7400, which is almost exactly the same, but is semi-auto. All controlls are located in the same place (read-safty). Just one less thing to worry about, pumping to eject the spent shell, which in a moment of excitement can be forgotten, and the chance of short jacking the pump.

One could argue that the pump action version makes it less likely to inadvertantly fire a 2nd shot due to a stressfull situation, however, the whole idea in using a pump is to fire and have the pump that comes after the firing be second nature. Hence you are right back to bieng a trigger pull away.

Now, as it is again a semi-auto, capable of accepting the evil 'banana clip' you again brush up against the semantic no-no of 'evil assault rifle'. However, i'd address this issue by having the 7400 with the shiny wood furnature and paring it with a 20 round mag, if not a 10 rounder. It would be technically closer to a true assault rifle than the 7615, but would LOOK less like an assualt rifle.

So if you are going to have a semi-auto in .223, why not just get an AR-15? I'd bet remington can make a 7400 pretty cheap, maybe less than an AR-15, you sidestep the evil assault rifle look, and the most important controls are the same as the issued shotgun. Plus, ive found the 7400 to be a very nice pointing gun. the AR-15 never felt that way. The pistol grip of the AR-15 takes a bit to get used to, and is included to help control a weapon in full auto fire, which isn't an issue, so ill stick with the stock that is going to be more familiar to those with no military background and a little to no gun exposure. Finally, the AR-15's sights are set up quite high above the barrel. This is no big deal when shooting at longer distances, but as most police engagements are close, that can be an issue. You are also more likely to get in a scenario where your sights are dead on, but there is some obstruction in front of the barrel you don't see, because the sites are 3 inches above it!

 

[DanS]

When I wrote that if the Chief of Police said the weapons would be destroyed, that I believe him. I believe that they will happily destroy any firearm. Not that City politicians should be trusted.

When I mentioned that St. Louis was/is liberal, I came to that conclusion from living here for over 40 years. And reading some of SL's political history, there hasn't been a republican in office in 70+ years (I think). I don't think a republican would even run for office in the city.

As far as the CCW, do you know anyone in the SL city or county that has a MO CCW permit. They told us 45 days wait, max... After waiting 47 days my brother called and the police said they were going to start mailing them this week for the first in line.

 

[fistful]

As far as the CCW, do you know anyone in the SL city or county that has a MO CCW permit. They told us 45 days wait, max... After waiting 47 days my brother called and the police said they were going to start mailing them this week for the first in line.

Let us know when you get them.

 

[Rickstir]

Mountaindrew,
I have a brother-in-law and a nephew that are both STL PD officers. They carry Glocks. I have a 92 FS and can tell the difference.

 

[Treylis]

I am against this not only because I think it's a bad decision from a weapons/tactical perspective, but because I utterly and totally oppose assets forfeiture laws as they are in this country. Too many people have been snowflaked without due process.

 

[fistful]

snowflaked?

What mean that?

 

[Treylis]

Planted drugs on their person in order to seize their possessions.

 

[carebear]

Well, you know they WERE dirty, they just happened to be clean at that moment....

 

[clange]

Speaking as someone who did some computer consulting at the SLMPD in 1999-2000, and who met Chief Mokwa before he became chief, he always struck me as a real stand-up guy. Don't underestimate the amount of politics that you have to deal with as you move up the ladder, especially in a city police force that's managed like the SLMPD. Compromises to the liberal elements in the city eg) melting down old shotguns, may earn you the clout to do other more important things.

???? Mokwa. That guy is as anti-gun as they come. He would have those guns melted down, just so there were that many fewer guns in the world.

When MO got its CCW law, and vehicle carry, he instructed his officers to confiscate ANY firearm they found in a vehicle, to later test it to determine if it had been used in a crime. Only after a few well-placed letters and emails, did this official position change.