"Modern" auto's pro's/cons

[sb350hp]

This post is basically in response to a thread on "will the 1911's fade away" postings.
My question to all of you who argue that the 1911 design is unreliable and outdated in comparison to "modern" styles is : How so? What are the advantages other than magazine capacity?

Safety? No- 1911s have been proven time and again to be one of the safest if not the safest in history.

Design? Nope 1911s are the most copied ever, Even you XD homers have to admit that

Weight? Maybe but 12 or 18 rds of any thing is going to add a hefty amount of weight to you so called lightweigh ccw.

Size? Nope can't go there with your fat, short, tuppergun.

Mag capacity? Arguable point but in the real world how many stories have you heard about "shootouts" w/ regular citizens and not LEOs. My opinion if it aint over in the 1st 3 maybe 4 shots something is wrong (excluding LEOs)

Reliability? Not an issue with the modern 1911s (you cannot argue this point) the modern 1911 will eat anything your ??? will.

So, why would someone think the 1911 will eventually pass away? It is kind of like the 30-06 or the KJV bible. Neither are going anyplace. No one has reinvented the pistol in such a way to have the impact the 1911 design has had.

 

[Setzer77]

I don't carry my 1911, but I do love it. I like the weight, I like the low recoil, and I like punch the .45 offers. The reason I don't carry it is b/c I don't like a SAO trigger w/ safety. I completely dislike the idea of having to think about disengaging a safety before firing. For many people this isn't an issue, but I lack the money to practice with thousands and thousands of rounds from a carry position so that it becomes second nature. For that reason, I carry a DA/SA w/ decock only, and that is the only reason.

 

[Walkalong]

1911's are just the best. Period.

 

[Beowolf1911]

I don't care what features you add to a plastic gun it is still a plastic gun. No one talks about grand-daddy's plastic gun. Don't get me wrong I have fired many of them and most are very good guns but for me to carry it I want either a manual safety or a cocked and locked carry like the 1911. My two carriers are a norinco 1911 and a FEG PA-63 If it is DAO in my opinion I just am not interested.

 

[Setzer77]

I failed to add, modern plastic guns don't inspire. I like my pistols to have manual controls on them, little bits and pieces sticking out that have a function. For example, my friend just bought an M&P9, and while I was considering one before, I'll never buy one now. The pistol shot great, did everything it was supposed to, but I found it.....bleh.

 

[jerkface11]

They have a grip safety which I HATE. And they can't be unloaded without taking the safety off. Give me a CZ75 or variant thereof over a 1911 any day of the week.

 

[The Annoyed Man]

As of today, I own both types. I already owned 2 1911s, one of them being an old 1943 Ithica, and the other being a Sig GSR Stainless Carry. This afternoon I bought an H&K USP Compact in .40 S&W. The main reason I bought it was that I wanted something slightly smaller than my Sig, and with the DA/SA and a decocker. I like shooting both my 1911s, particularly the new Sig. I do enjoy the ownership experience. Like Setzer77 said, I like the various manual controls, the low recoil, and the punch of the .45 round. And you just can't beat a well tuned trigger on a 1911. But also like Setzer77 said, I just can't get past the idea of carrying cocked and locked. It makes me nervous. Gives me the heebeejeebees. Intellectually, I understand that, with the redundant safety systems of a 1911 (manual safety, grip safety, firing pin block), the gun will probably never discharge accidentally. I totally get that. I still don't like it. So for me, it's the Sig for a house gun, and the H&K for a carry gun.

As far as the looks of "plastic" guns, I'm much more forgiving than some. Yes, some guns are uglier than others, but if form following function is a form of beauty, then some of them are quite good looking pieces. I didn't buy the H&K because it looked nice, but I don't think it looks that bad, either.

 

[Youngster]

The one real advantage the more recent autos have {albiet a big one} is that they are designed with today's production methods and materials in mind, so they they don't need skilled touch labor and forged innards to run to their potential.

 

[Geronimo45]

Among the cons of modern autos are appearances. Like a lot of modern architecture, they're practical... and plain. Even the stainless finishes are matte, and some are blackened. The grips are black plastic. Wood's not seen much anymore on 'em. Do they go out of their way to ugly-up the things?

Then there's the influence of Glock - and their special trigger setup. Now, LEOs want new guns that have a trigger like their old Glocks - a trigger that seems to lose the benefits of the DA and SA triggers. The poundage of the pull is like a SA. The length is more like a DA. You don't get the crispness of a nice SA, or the second-strike capability (which may or may not be useful) of DA.

In forty or fifty years, people may be rattling on about the 'classic Glock 17'... you never can tell.

 

[wally]

I completely dislike the idea of having to think about disengaging a safety before firing. For many people this isn't an issue, but I lack the money to practice with thousands and thousands of rounds from a carry position so that it becomes second nature.

AirSoft makes some gas operated 1911-like guns with working thumb safeties so you can practice your draw very safely and cheaply indeed.

I wipe the thumb safety off my Kahr as it comes up on target even though its not there

--wally.

 

[Madmardig0n]

I love shooting my 1911 - but I wouldn't want to carry it. I just don't like carrying the pistol cocked, even with the saftey on. I'll take my S&W 5906 w/decocker or Glock 23 for carry.

 

[1911RjB]

i carry my 1911, i have no problem with it cocked and locked.. i don't like double action to much.. i don't know why...

 

[DAVE RICHARDS]

Yes I can from real life experience argue the reliability point. Of 8-9 1911's I've owned all but three needed work from the box to get up and running. Some they couldn't get running and keep running. Common problems with 1911's
1. Extractor tension problems. Too heavy/tolight.
2. Plunger tubes breaking off or becoming loose. More frequent changes of recoil springs.
3. Multiple makers of multiple 1911 models with different specs than the original. Different batches from the same company can come with different mags from different makers at different times.
4. Poor quality control from some makers.
Every Sig, HK, or any modern high quality firearm I have bought has worked from the box. Some of the lower grade guns needed work. But Sig, HK, and so on use the same design specs on their specific models and the same parts. Uniform construction makes for uniform performance. Many years ago Glock did a demonstration in which they broke down a bunch of G17's and threw the parts on a table. They let people put the guns back together from any of the parts on the table. Do that with a bunch of 1911's.

 

[Euclidean]

I defended the 1911 in the other thread so here I'll show my other side.

Safety? No- 1911s have been proven time and again to be one of the safest if not the safest in history.

Relative to what? Sure 1911s are safe to use, but Glocks are safe, Sigs are safe, Taurus pistols are safe, etc.

Design? Nope 1911s are the most copied ever, Even you XD homers have to admit that

Part of the reason I like the XD so much is that it cherry picks the best parts of the 1911 design and leaves out the parts I don't like as much.

Weight? Maybe but 12 or 18 rds of any thing is going to add a hefty amount of weight to you so called lightweigh ccw.

It's still lighter though. Plus show me a 1911 that's as light as say a Keltec PF9.

Lighter isn't always better of course, it depends on what we're talking about.

Size? Nope can't go there with your fat, short, tuppergun.

I've taken calipers to my 1911 and my XD45 before. The width was the same when I put the calipers across the 1911's grips. The Glock 19 I have is a more compact package than the 1911; it's shorter and almost exactly the same thickness.

Granted I could put slimline grips on the 1911 and shave off about .1" (which does make a difference) but it's still thicker than single stack poly guns even if I do that, and not much thinner than double stacks.

Mag capacity? Arguable point but in the real world how many stories have you heard about "shootouts" w/ regular citizens and not LEOs. My opinion if it aint over in the 1st 3 maybe 4 shots something is wrong (excluding LEOs)

Why exclude LEOs? Defensive shooting is defensive shooting.

I'm not a capacity junky either, I carry 5, 6 or 7 rounds all the time and feel perfectly happy about it. I don't think a CCW necessarily needs umpteen bajillion rounds either. But more is still better, and if the design of your gun will accommodate 10 or more rounds, you should take advantage of that. I load all six of my double action revolvers' chambers. Even in the 1911, I prefer to take advantage of 8 round magazines instead of 7.

Reliability? Not an issue with the modern 1911s (you cannot argue this point) the modern 1911 will eat anything your ??? will.

Well, sort of. If we're talking about specific specimens of guns we know to be reliable I think you're right. But I also think with the 1911 you have to know where it's going to fail and know a little something more about how your gun works and how to keep it maintained. Granted it's not complicated, but it's a more complex endeavor than running say a Glock.

So, why would someone think the 1911 will eventually pass away? It is kind of like the 30-06 or the KJV bible. Neither are going anyplace. No one has reinvented the pistol in such a way to have the impact the 1911 design has had.

Gaston Glock.

I own a 1911. I see the appeal, I really do. I'd like another one some day. But everything has its uses and unique appeal.

 

[tipoc]

1911s aren't for everyone. You have to want to learn the gun and get to the point with it that you don't think about wiping off the safety. You just do it, like you shift the gears of your vehicle, or apply the brakes.

We're fortunate these days. There are quality operating systems for just about every need and taste. Most work very well. You pick what you feel works for you.

I've owned Glocks, Sigs and a couple of HKs. All were good guns and did what they should and did it well. But the 1911 felt and feels right in my hand (as do the Browning HP and the CZ 75). My gun of choice. It has it's strengths and weaknesses. I have no problem carrying the gun or haveing it about me and ready to go, in all three conditions and have. It works for me.

tipoc

 

[Hoppy590]

Quote:
So, why would someone think the 1911 will eventually pass away? It is kind of like the 30-06 or the KJV bible. Neither are going anyplace. No one has reinvented the pistol in such a way to have the impact the 1911 design has had.

Gaston Glock.

Gaston Glock
1


JMB

Handguns
1903 Hammerless
1903 Hammer
FN1910
1911 (Still in use)
P35 (BHP) ( still in use)

Long guns
1887
1894
1897 ( original "trench gun")
Browning Auto 5 (sought after)

Automatics
M1895 Potato Digger
BAR
M1917/1919
M2 50cal ( still in use)

some of JMB's rounds
.25 ACP
.32 ACP
.38 ACP
9mm Browning Long
.380 ACP
.45 ACP
.50 BMG



looks like Gastons not nearly the "revolution" when you compare it to a legend. also if im not mistaked glock didnt invent the polymer frame. i think it was used by another manufacturer.

 

[Euclidean]

looks like Gastons not nearly the "revolution" when you compare it to a legend.

He only asked about pistols not a comprehensive catalog of firearms.

JMB's other accomplishments are amazing but irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Hoppy590]

ok, then these 2 alone should be sufficient
1911
P35
and these rounds
.32 ACP
.380 ACP
.45 ACP



also thats hardly a comprehensive list of JMB. those are just the most well known and easily reconized

 

[SDDL-UP]

I stated this in another thread, but I'll do so again here - I think people that like the 1911 do so for all of the things it is, not what it isn't. If you must compare it to everything else out there it will be left wanting in some areas. I can't believe that you would post it's just as reliable as anything else out there, but okay. I just love it for what it is - a great gun! But I'm not a homer that will claim it's the end all of handgun design either, it's not. But it's not going anywhere either and that's the way it should be.

 

[bigred82]

Was the HK P7 based off of a JMB design?

It is arguably still one of the best ccw 9mm on the market.

The P9s was another non-JMB based design wasn't it?

It saw some good use by our military. Excellent design before the age of high-capacity.


JMB was a engineering genius no doubt - but he's not the only one who knew how to make a good firearm. Luger has some pretty good ideas as well.

The 1911 will never fade away. They have way too big of a religiously devoted following to ever fade away. I think everyone should own at least 1 in their life. Just to try it out. But to state that most modern-day 1911s are as reliable as say Glocks, HKs, or SIGs - that's a far stretch. Most 1911s are made tighter than JMB's original design to sqeeze ever last bit of match accuracy out of them - hence why they are more prone to stoppages than other makes. Which is one of the reasons there are so many 1911 gunsmiths and armorers - they get a lot of business.

 

[sm]

Youngster wrote:
The one real advantage the more recent autos have {albiet a big one} is that they are designed with today's production methods and materials in mind, so they they don't need skilled touch labor and forged innards to run to their potential.

This is where I have a problem and respectfully disagree.

Allow me stay with one Platform - the 1911 - for ease of posting.

-First off the Gov't Model called for certain Specifications and includes Metallurgy -like the bar stock extractor.

-Quality Control, and Craftsman who took pride in their work.

-Guns run from the get-go.

-IF, If a customer needed Service, Customer Service was Great.
Maybe a new set of stocks, re-blue from hard abuse.
The guns run, still with anything in life , Customer Service is needed to repair or get parts.

--Stay with that for now-

Today, Clones of 1911's. Some do a better job of staying with Specs as far as dimensions go, still Metallurgy is different, Short cuts taken, QC is "assumed" because a computer aided machine "cut it" and it is NOT about you the Consumer, instead Money for the Mfg and shareholders.

Customer Service? Now some have NO idea what this concept is, some are better than others.


Oh, I do miss the days one just ordered a gun with the Postcard in Field & Stream for instance, then the Postman delivered it C.O.D to your door.

 

[Setzer77]

Wally, I have several airsoft guns, one of which is a 1911. My preference still leads me to DA/SA, it's just the way I am. To the others, the first poly framed pistol was the HK VP70, not the Glock.

 

[Sunray]

"...Ithica..." IthAca?
"...airsoft guns..." Toys don't count. No matter how much fun they are, they're not firearms.
"...these 2 alone...and these rounds..." The Browning P35 is 9mm.
"...Safety?..." Inanimate objects are neither safe nor unsafe.
"...designed with today's production methods and materials in mind..." Exactly. If JM was around now, he'd be using them too.
"...HK VP70..." The only pistol I've ever seen called a jam-o-matic in a gun rag review. The VP70 was designed as a machine pistol, not a semi-auto handgun.
"...Weight?..." Most cop firearms are carried far more than they're fired. The weight matters.
"...HK P7 based off of a JMB design..." No. That squeeze cocking isn't that great either.
"...Guns run from the get-go..." Only with RN ammo and a taper crimp is required.
The whole thing boils down to how well a pistol fits your hand and how often you use it. I find polymer frames slippery. Easily fixed with a Pachmayr grip sleeve. DA pistols don't fit my hand. Mind you, neither do stock Smith revolvers. If a handgun fits your hand and you can shoot it well, nothing else matters.

 

[Euclidean]

ok, then these 2 alone should be sufficient
1911
P35
and these rounds
.32 ACP
.380 ACP
.45 ACP



also thats hardly a comprehensive list of JMB. those are just the most well known and easily reconized

I agree, that's impressive. And I would even say that when discussing any sort of firearm, JMB is probably responsible for many or most of the key features we take for granted.

But the hard fact of the matter is that in the context of handguns, the Glock 17 is just as important as the 1911 in terms of engineering, prominence, design innovation, and widespread service use. Really, aren't most of the service pistols currently on the market a derivative of a JMB design or the striker fired polymer gun?

Look at the huge catalog of striker fired poly guns from all makers which represent what we consider to be contemporary service pistols... are they closer to the Glock or the 1911/BHP/etc?

Now I will give you this: the Glock wouldn't be possible unless the 1911 had come first, but that doesn't take away from the fact that its introduction was just as important. After all, the 1911 wouldn't have been possible if the Colt Peacemaker hadn't come first.

Also, it doesn't matter if another polymer gun technically came first, it's not the frame material that made the Glock so important. The Glock's overall level of engineering is amazing and its method of operation combined with its utter simplicity caused it to succeed where others faded into obscurity. The polymer frame is a key feature but it's not the entire story. That'd be like saying the 1911 isn't important because there were steel framed guns before the 1911 came about.

Afterthought: and really, JMB had a natural advantage when it came to pioneering new cartridges. The problem with making a new cartridge is that it really has to do something new that a pre existing one doesn't. Yes he was brilliant for being the first to come up with it, but just as someone besides Edison would have figured out the light bulb had Edison failed, the ballistic equivalent of those cartridges would have come into being eventually by someone's hand even if JMB hadn't bothered.

 

[The Annoyed Man]

"...Ithica..." IthAca?

Yep, I made a typo. You got me. Can I EVER be forgiven?