Modified Trigger on Carry Gun

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atek3

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Ten years ago, the received wisdom was that trigger jobs on carry guns were bad juju from a legal standpoint. I.e. lawyers could seize upon that to argue that your gun was a 'finely tuned killing machine.'

At the time I thought that was generally much ado about nothing, but has case law changed at all in the last decade?

If you put kit on an M&P Shield taking the trigger from 9 lbs to 5.5 lbs, is that going to work against you in a civil trial years down the line?

atek3
 
I've heard that advice multiple times, several of them in this forum. So far, no one has cited an example of a court case where a modified trigger made any difference one way or another. Your question about case law on the subject changing may be moot since it seems entirely possible there never was any to begin with.
 
If the trigger on your Shield is 9lbs and not a Mass. or other state-mandated trigger weight, then it's out of spec, and the work could be legitimately considered a repair. The factory spec is listed at approximately 6.5 lbs. (It's followed by a +/- sign on website.) If you have to put in an Apex kit or smooth out the plunger channel from a burr to fix it, and end up at 5.5lbs, that's pretty close to factory.

If you brought the trigger into an unsafe range for a carry gun, then you may have an issue, but IMO, 5.5lbs is going to be safer than jerking the muzzle off target trying to compensate for rough factory finishing.

ETA: You could also try shooting the gun to smooth out the burr that's likely causing the issue. Mine started out horrendous, but improved after a few hundred rounds. That's the advice the local gunsmith gave. It's not completely smoothed out yet, but at around 500 rounds it's acceptable. Another option is just to have a smith carefully smooth it out, keeping the trigger closer to the factory 6.5lbs.
 
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depends where you live. I suppose in some far off commie state there are "overzealous prosecutors" that do some of the stuff I hear spouted on about when the subject of self defense comes up. Here in the hinterlands there is no such thing and a good shoot is a good shoot.
 
I think if your in a court room for shooting in your self defense of for self defense of another. You got bigger problems than trigger weight or better sights.
 
I'm far more worried about hitting the wrong person because my trigger is so crappy that I can't hit my intended target.

I'm not the NYPD; I don't have an endless pot of taxpayer money and qualified immunity to substitute for proper marksmanship.

My M1911s tend to have 4lb. EIC legal triggers. My Glocks have 3.5lb. Ghost triggers and the "$0.25 trigger job".
 
There's several issues at play.

1) How much of a "trigger job" are we talking about? If your gun's trigger is very light, that might not be the best thing for a situation where you'll be running on pure adrenaline, losing fine motor coordination, hands sweating, shaking, and possibly fighting with or even for the gun. If your gun fires accidentally, you don't have a chance to argue for an "affirmative defense" of self defense. You DON'T want that gun to fire accidentally even if you're pretty sure you're getting ready to have to shoot... and you DARNED sure don't want it firing accidentally just because you were in a scary situation and got startled and bumped it.

If a prosecutor gets a hint of an idea that you didn't really intend to shoot someone, but fired your gun prematurely or accidentally, that lightened trigger may certainly be brought into testimony as part of a very strong case against your claim of self-defense.

2) The boogeyman of the "Overzealous Prosecutor" that every gun guy fears. It is beyond question that some guns and some gun modifications can have an impact on how you will be perceived by a jury, if you shoot someone, are charged with a crime, and the case goes to trial. Our own Dr. Meyer (member GEM) has shown that simply having a prosecutor display certain kinds of weapons to a jury can cause them to feel disfavorably toward a defendant. Your defensive weapon will be an exhibit at the trial. It will be fired and ballistics-matched, and if the forensics techs notice that the trigger is really light, they'll probably make that information available to the Court. But if you've got a roughly normal trigger pull -- nice but not hair light -- it stands to reason that's not going to be noteworthy. It isn't like they're going to be investigating you for shooting a mugger on the street and will go and pull all your receipts to see if you ever bought a lighter set of springs from Wolff, or sent the gun out for a little fine-tuning. Something obvious and glaring that the prosecutor can wave in front of the jury? Say that set of "Punisher" death's-head grips you put on your carry gun? Yeah, that's not going to play well for you. A mild trigger job? Probably not even going to come to the Prosecutor's attention.

So, IMHO, the issue is a bit over-stated. As long as your trigger is in a reasonable, normal range and operates correctly, I don't see the harm.
 
Sam1911 said:
....IMHO, the issue is a bit over-stated. As long as your trigger is in a reasonable, normal range and operates correctly, I don't see the harm.
To some extent that's certainly true.

I know someone who is a police instructor and armorer and who could be an expert witness. He will state that a 4 to 5 pound trigger is appropriate for a service 1911 and that he will not set a trigger lighter than 4 pounds. If I used one of my 1911s with a 4.5 pound trigger, he will be testifying for me. If someone used a 1911 (or another handgun) with a 3 pound trigger, he will be testifying for the DA. His testimony will be something to the effect that as an expert he would consider carrying a 1911 with a trigger lighter than 4 pound is reckless.

yugorpk said:
depends where you live. I suppose in some far off commie state there are "overzealous prosecutors" that do some of the stuff I hear spouted on about when the subject of self defense comes up. Here in the hinterlands there is no such thing and a good shoot is a good shoot.
Hogwash!

This "a good shoot is a good shoot" business is nonsense. You're not the one who decides if it was a good shoot. That decision will be made by others, after the fact and with all the time in the world to second guess the decision you were forced to make in an instant. It's only a good shoot if the DA, grand jury, and/or (if your unlucky) the jury at your trial decide that it is.

And as far as it necessarily making a difference where you are, it didn't work out that way for these folks:

  • This couple, arrested in early April and finally exonerated under Missouri's Castle Doctrine in early June. And no doubt after incurring expenses for bail and a lawyer, as well as a couple of month's anxiety, before being cleared.

  • Larry Hickey, in gun friendly Arizona: He was arrested, spent 71 days in jail, went through two different trials ending in hung juries, was forced to move from his house, etc., before the DA decided it was a good shoot and dismissed the charges.

  • Mark Abshire in Oklahoma: Despite defending himself against multiple attackers on his own lawn in a fairly gun-friendly state with a "Stand Your Ground" law, he was arrested, went to jail, charged, lost his job and his house, and spent two and a half years in the legal meat-grinder before finally being acquitted.

  • Harold Fish, also in gun friendly Arizona: He was still convicted and sent to prison. He won his appeal, his conviction was overturned, and a new trial was ordered. The DA chose to dismiss the charges rather than retry Mr. Fish.

  • Gerald Ung: He was attacked by several men, and the attack was captured on video. He was nonetheless charged and brought to trial. He was ultimately acquitted.

  • Some good folks in clear jeopardy and with no way to preserve their lives except by the use of lethal force against other humans. Yet that happened under circumstances in which their justification for the use of lethal force was not immediately clear. While each was finally exonerated, it came at great emotional and financial cost. And perhaps there but for the grace of God will go one of us.

  • And note also that two of those cases arose in States with a Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground law in effect at the time.

  • And if you travel, you might wind up defending yourself away from home.
 
In a self defense case where deadly force is legally applied...how would it matter if your trigger weight was 10 lbs or 2 lbs? Trigger weight doesn't determine if your life was in danger...the attackers actions determine it.

In other words, if you're being murdered, and you stop the assailant with your sidearm...will anyone say "well...certainly you had the right to defend yourself...but you have no right to do so with a 2 lb. trigger"?

The only type of scenario where I can see logic bringing the issue to bear, is if there is a claim that a firearm "accidentally" went off.

Plus...I am the finely tuned killing machine...not my pistol. :D
 
Under what circumstances would the weight of your trigger matter if you shot someone on purpose?
If its a good shoot and you surely meant to trigger it, it likely wouldnt matter.

More importantly perhaps; do you want it "too" light, and then have to argue that the shoot was not intentional, but a ND caused by tightly wrung nerves and an altered trigger?

For defense, I dont mind a weight of pull that requires more than a casual bump to set it off.
 
gspn said:
In a self defense case where deadly force is legally applied...how would it matter if your trigger weight was 10 lbs or 2 lbs? Trigger weight doesn't determine if your life was in danger...the attackers actions determine it....
Well for one thing, it's not a self defense case unless the DA and/or grand jury and/or (if you're unlucky) the jury at your trial decide that it is. Until then, it's an aggravated assault or manslaughter case, depending on the condition of the person you shot.

The DA, in evaluating whether to prosecute someone's intentional act of violence against another human when the actor has claimed self defense, will be considering all factors taken together. So --

  1. Will the actor's using a lethal weapon with and especially sensitive trigger influence the DA's decision about whether he will be able to convince a jury that the actor's act of violence was not legally justified? Maybe and maybe not. The thing is that we have no way to know ahead of time.

  2. If if goes to the grand jury, will the actor's using a lethal weapon with and especially sensitive trigger influence the grand jury's decision about whether to indict? Maybe and maybe not. The thing is that we have no way to know ahead of time.

  3. If the actor is charged/indicted and the question goes to trial, will the DA be able to introduce evidence regarding he defendant's using a lethal weapon with and especially sensitive trigger and argue that the jury should infer from that the the defendant is disposed to recklessness and violence? Maybe and maybe not. The thing is that we have no way to know ahead of time.

  4. If the evidence gets to the jury, will they care? Maybe and maybe not. The thing is that we have no way to know ahead of time.

That's a lot of unknowables. But one takes the issue off the table if he doesn't use a lethal weapon with an especially light trigger but uses a gun with what could be described as a standard service trigger.

You "pays your money and takes your chance." Personally I think it's a good idea to avoid, to the extent reasonably possible, things you can't control.

Were I a prosecutor I'd frame the issue as whether or how using a gun with a "hair" trigger reflects on the character or disposition of the defendant. And in a case in which the defendant attempts to avoid criminal liability for an intentional act of violence against another human on the grounds that he reasonably determined that such act of violence was necessary and justified, the character and disposition of the defendant can be a legitimate issue.

Several years ago a lawyer by the name of Lisa Steele wrote an excellent article for lawyers on defending a self defense case. The article was entitled "Defending a Self Defense Case" and published in the March, 2007, edition of the journal of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, The Champion. It was republished in four parts, with permission, on the website, Truth About Guns. The article as republished can be read here: Part 1; Part 2; Part 3; and Part 4.

As Ms. Steele explains the unique character of a self defense case in Part 1 (emphasis added):
...Self-defense is all-or-nothing. In order to establish it, the client has to admit being at the crime scene, with a weapon, which he or she used to intentionally harm the aggressor. The client has to admit that he injured the aggressor. The client has to convince the jury that if a reasonable person had been standing in his shoes, the reasonable person would have done the same thing. In effect, the aggressor invited his fate by threatening or inflicting serious bodily harm, or by threatening to kill the client.

In one fell swoop, the client has given up alibi and mistaken identity defenses. He or she has given up any claim that the wound was made by accident. Generally, the client must give up provocation (heat of passion or extreme emotional disturbance). Logically, provocation implies an unreasonable response to a situation, and mitigates murder to manslaughter. Self-defense implies a rational response to a very dangerous situation and, if successful, results in an acquittal. Similarly, the client must give up claims of mental illness or insanity and defenses based on intoxication or drug use....

If the character and/or disposition of the defendant (e. g., reckless, predisposed to violence, etc.) could cast doubt upon the reasonableness of his conclusion that lethal force was necessary, the issue would be material to the jury's evaluation of the claim of self defense.

It's quite possible, with practice and training, to be able to effectively manage a gun with a decent service trigger for self defense. A great many such guns have been successfully carried and used by law enforcement, the military and, no doubt, private citizens.

gspn said:
...I am the finely tuned killing machine...
A statement well calculated to delight a prosecutor and turn any jury against you.
 
A statement well calculated to delight a prosecutor and turn any jury against you.

They can blame the Marine Corps...as well as my sense of humor. :D

But this brings up a related idea...if prosecutor finds out that you frequently go to the gun range...they might use that against you, after all it could indicate that your character and disposition is one of a trigger happy person who is obsessed with guns.

If they find out you go to professional shooting schools like Gunsite, they might use that against you, claiming that you've been planning on using your gun for years...and even attended a professional gunfighter school.

Using the arguments made thus far, a DA could use anything against you...but none of it is logical...although I get what you're saying about juries...logic may sometimes not be the primary driver of jury decisions.

Do we have any instances from anywhere in the country where a person who used a gun in a bona fide case of self defense, was prosecuted because they had a lighter than factory trigger installed on their gun? Any situations where the jury said "he had a right to use deadly force, but we convicted him anyway because his trigger pull was lighter than normal"? I'm asking...I don't know if we do or don't.

I'm not advocating for super light triggers...I just don't see how that small of a factor would change the outcome of an otherwise legit use of self defense...such as a person breaking into my home in the middle of the night.

I know that Google isn't the end-all, be-all research platform, but when I try to find cases where trigger pull matters there are a few of the unintentional discharge type of case, but the vast majority of it is people on gun forums theorizing about how a DA might use it against you...I find no news stories about any DA's actually doing it though...just gun people arguing about it.

Disclaimer: I'm no lawyer...nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn last night.
 
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gspn said:
...But this brings up a related idea...if prosecutor finds out that you frequently go to the gun range...they might use that against you, after all it could indicate that your character and disposition is one of a trigger happy person who is obsessed with guns.

If they find out you go to professional shooting schools like Gunsite, they might use that against you, claiming that you've been planning on using your gun for years...and even attended a professional gunfighter school....

  • I use quality, JHP ammunition of the sort commonly used by law enforcement agencies. This could be used against me in court, but I have decided that the risk is warranted because of the generally superior terminal performance of such ammunition. Therefore, I am prepared to meet attacks on my use of such ammunition.

  • I have sought out training, and I practice. I recognize that these things can be used against me in court, but I have concluded that by being trained I have a better chance to prevail in an emergency. So I have prepared to deal with attacks on my training.

  • Using a heavily modified gun could be used against me. Furthermore, I have trained and practiced sufficiently to be effective with a stock gun. So I have no good reason to use a heavily modified gun and take any risks on that account.

  • I gain no material advantage in the street using handloaded ammunition instead of good commercial ammunition. Therefore, I see no reason to take any risks, even if remote, by using handloaded ammunition.

gspn said:
I'm no lawyer..
I am.
 
jerkface11 said:
If it was an ND caused by too light of a trigger you WERE at fault.
That goes without saying. And knowing what my fine motor skills do when im all amped up over dangerous and chaotic situations...Im not going to lighten my SD arms' triggers to target specs.
I wouldnt wanna have to attempt to argue a murder charge down to a manslaughter, over an unplanned discharge.
 
  • I use quality, JHP ammunition of the sort commonly used by law enforcement agencies. This could be used against me in court, but I have decided that the risk is warranted because of the generally superior terminal performance of such ammunition. Therefore, I am prepared to meet attacks on my use of such ammunition.

  • I have sought out training, and I practice. I recognize that these things can be used against me in court, but I have concluded that by being trained I have a better chance to prevail in an emergency. So I have prepared to deal with attacks on my training.

  • Using a heavily modified gun could be used against me. Furthermore, I have trained and practiced sufficiently to be effective with a stock gun. So I have no good reason to use a heavily modified gun and take any risks on that account.

  • I gain no material advantage in the street using handloaded ammunition instead of good commercial ammunition. Therefore, I see no reason to take any risks, even if remote, by using handloaded ammunition.

I am.

All good points. The prostitution rests, your honor. (I love that line).
 
Frank Ettin wrote: "Were I a prosecutor I'd frame the issue as whether or how using a gun with a "hair" trigger reflects on the character or disposition of the defendant."

That is pretty important. I know of a case in which a white man in a pickup truck ran down a black child. Everything indicated that it was an accident, pure and simple. But the black prosecutor got pictures of the truck. It had a big sign on front reading "exterminator" (he was not in the pest control business) and one on the back reading "Kill them all, .....", along with a Confederate flag.

The driver, IIRC, got two years and was (IMHO) darned lucky to escape a life sentence.

So, two points. Never discount the effect of any showing of recklessness or irresponsibility. Never discount the question of race. If you are on trial, anywhere in the U.S., and if the judge, prosecutor, and jury don't look like you, you could be in very deep trouble. I know that is not the way it is supposed to be, but anyone who thinks race will not be a factor (if it is involved at all) just has not been paying attention.

Jim
 
Jim K said:
...Everything indicated that it was an accident, pure and simple. But the black prosecutor got pictures of the truck....
Comments on social media, including forums like THR, can cause similar issues.

Plaintiff lawyers, law enforcement and prosecutors know all about social media and have been learning to use it effectively in civil litigation, criminal investigations and prosecutions. See this article headlined "Bay Area prosecutors increasingly using social media posts in criminal cases" from the 16 August 2013 edition of the Contra Costa Times:
PLEASANTON -- A teenage driver originally accused of vehicular manslaughter now faces a murder charge in the death of a bicyclist, partly because prosecutors say he bragged on Twitter about driving dangerously.

His case is part of a growing trend of social media posts being used as evidence against suspects, authorities said Friday.

....

As suspects feel compelled to post their misdeeds online for audiences to see, investigators have taken advantage, using the online quasi-confessions to bolster their cases, Bay Area prosecutors said.

In San Francisco, a cyclist in March fatally struck a 71-year-old pedestrian in a crosswalk after speeding through three red lights in the Castro District. Chris Bucchere, who eventually pleaded guilty to felony vehicular manslaughter, received a stiffer charge after he posted his explanation of the crash on a cycling group's website....

What can happen in court will be a product of all factors in the aggregate.
 
One other issue that modified triggers can bring up is possible civil liability. If you shoot someone on your property, it can make you an attractive target for a civil suit.

The kicker is that the goal at that point will likely be to try to prove that it wasn't self-defense, that it was an accidental shooting. That's because if they can support their claim of an accidental shooting with a preponderance of the evidence (a much reduced burden of proof compared to a criminal case, by the way) they can now access the deep pockets of your homeowner's insurance company.

Insurance covers accidents, but it doesn't generally cover intentional acts like self-defense. It's not difficult to see how an aggressive civil lawyer might see a modified trigger as a potential gold mine.
 
To further explore my point from before, we're talking about a spectrum of possible things.

Frank has used the term "hair trigger" and I think we all know that as an exceptionally light, borderline dangerous (depending on the application) condition, something below 2 lbs. certainly. The kind of trigger that tends to make the uninitiated shooter go either "Whoa..." or "WHOOPS!" I see several problems with that for a defensive arm, including that it will be noteworthy to the forensics techs and probably would make it into the prosecutor's notes.

So let's set "hair triggers" aside from the discussion, because most shooters don't want that at all, and I don't think that's what the OP was asking about.

I'm far less convinced that a normal "trigger job" -- wherein one might smooth engagement surfaces, reduce over-travel, adjust the reset point, and/or set the pull weight to something in the 4-5 lbs. range -- is any kind of trial liability at all. I'm not sure I see where that information even gets to the prosecutor.

What is the path here where that "overzealous prosecutor" even gains the information that the trigger pull of your sidearm is not just a happy coincidence of good manufacturing, but the result of some parts-swapping and delicate work with a set of stones?

Do we expect the forensics techs to measure every spring against factory examples? Observe internal small parts and compare them to factory parts to see if they differ in dimension or construction? Is that detailed, part-by-part analysis of the firearm a common function of a run-of-the-mill homicide investigation?

I would grant even that competition mods and gear, and maybe your USPSA lapel pin and Gunsite bolo tie, might get you painted as a man "gun obsessed" and "looking for a chance to shoot someone." That's a risk we take and we all live with that. Absent the lapel pin and bolo tie :)D) those things might or might not be discovered as part of the investigation or come up in cross-examination. You might have to talk about your shooting interests.

But small, slight, common internal modifications like a better trigger seem to have a long road to walk to get in front of the jury, and I'd like to understand the proposed scenario under which that becomes a real issue.
 
Sam1911 said:
...I'm far less convinced that a normal "trigger job" -- wherein one might smooth engagement surfaces, reduce over-travel, adjust the reset point, and/or set the pull weight to something in the 4-5 lbs. range -- is any kind of trial liability at all. I'm not sure I see where that information even gets to the prosecutor.....
Again, I doubt that a decent "service" trigger would be a problem. As to the prosecutor getting that information, a lot might depend on the investigative protocols in a particular jurisdiction.

It's my understanding that a gun used in a crime (and intentionally shooting someone is always prima facie a crime -- at least until the prosecutor decides it was justified self defense) will usually be taken as evidence and given to a Firearm and Toolmark Examiner. He or she would most likely at least determine that the gun, on cursory inspection, is in good order, including most likely measuring the trigger pull. So at least an unusually light trigger will probably be noticed, and one within expected specifications would not.

As described in the Forensic Firearms Identification Unit Procedure Manual of the Indiana State Police (pg 9):
...One of the routine examinations conducted in a firearms identification examination is determining the trigger pull of a firearm. Trigger pull is defined as the amount of force which shall be applied to the trigger of a firearm to cause sear release. This examination can provide vital information regarding the mechanical operating condition of the firearm....
 
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