Modified Trigger on Carry Gun

[X-Rap]

I'd add that the difference between shooting a SA/DA in SA mode exacerbates any light trigger issues that may be pointed out by a prosecutor.
DA only or striker fired by their nature require a heavier and longer trigger cycle. When trying to reduce a DA pull, reliability suffers when springs are lightened so by nature they are less susceptible to the scrutiny by the prosecutors IMHO.

 

[Sunray]

"...lawyers could seize upon..." That'd be a prosecutor. Any good defense lawyer would blow that argument into little pieces. If it weren't for frivolous law suits, factory triggers would be better and accurate shot placement would be less onerous. Accurate shot placement substantially reduces the chances of a stray shot hitting a by-stander.
Same argument can be made for using hand loads tailored for accuracy.
A "hair trigger" is an unsafe trigger.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Any good defense lawyer would blow that argument into little pieces....

How would you know?

...A "hair trigger" is an unsafe trigger.

Balderdash! A hairy trigger on a suitable gun used in an appropriate way is not unsafe. I have a fine Mannlicher-Schoenauer with a double set trigger. When set, the trigger breaks at about 8 ounces, but handled properly, as intended, there's nothing unsafe about it.

 

[JohnKSa]

Frank has used the term "hair trigger" and I think we all know that as an exceptionally light, borderline dangerous (depending on the application) condition, something below 2 lbs. certainly.
...
So let's set "hair triggers" aside from the discussion, because most shooters don't want that at all, and I don't think that's what the OP was asking about.

That would be nice, but it's not possible to simply dismiss "hair triggers".

Since there is no legal definition of a "hair trigger", that will likely be part of the argument in the case against a person with a modified trigger. The other side could claim that your gun has a "hair trigger" (which opens up all the negative connotations that entails) while you will be trying to prove that it's not. And, remember, all of this will have to be proved to a group of people who are almost certainly not well-educated on the topic of firearms. Your only sure defense will be to demonstrate that the trigger pull weight meets some accepted standard of safety. Accepted by the jury, that is.

You might be able to prove it's not a hair trigger by showing that it's within the range of trigger pull weight that the manufacturer of that particular firearm believes is acceptable for self-defense/carry/LE use. In Glock's case, for example, that would be a trigger with a pull weight of 5.5lbs or greater since Glock makes it known that they won't provide lighter connectors for duty guns--only for competition firearms.

You might be able to do it by getting an expert witness to testify on your behalf that the trigger pull is not too light.

There may be other ways, but the point is that it's a mistake to think that you can take something like that off the table in court like you can when talking to a group of gun afficionados. You may be able to address the concerns raised in court about a "hair trigger", but you won't be able to hand-wave it away.

 

[P5 Guy]

I use quality, JHP ammunition of the sort commonly used by law enforcement agencies

Does using the same brand of gun and ammunition as the local LEOs make one a "WANNA BE COP" and vigilante spoiling for a confrontation with the criminal element?

When I read discussions on these lines I become more inclined to just leave my pistol in the safe and let the criminals have their way with me. Everything can and will be used against me by overzealous prosecutors for the state.

Does that line of thinking give the predators super rights over the victims.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Sunray:

"...lawyers could seize upon..." That'd be a prosecutor.

That'd be either a prosector or an attorney for a plaintiff in a civil trial, or both in separate trials under different rules.

Any good defense lawyer would blow that argument into little pieces.

.

If it weren't for frivolous law suits, factory triggers would be better and accurate shot placement would be less onerous.

Frivolous by whose standard? The shooter's, or that of someone injured by the shooter?

And you are assuming, it would seem, that lighter triggers are "better". Not so fast.

Accurate shot placement substantially reduces the chances of a stray shot hitting a by-stander.

Of course, but a firearm tuned for "accurate shot placement" on a target range can also be less safe when used on the street under stressful conditions.

A "hair trigger" is an unsafe trigger.

That will be the argument of the plaintiff. The question is, where to draw the line?

This discussion comes up periodically. We have heard an armorer quoted as saying that if a certain type of firearm has a a trigger pull weight (force) above a certain level, he would testify for the defense, and if the pull force is lower than that, he may end up testifying as an expert witness of the plaintiff or for the prosecution.

 

[Frank Ettin]

....When I read discussions on these lines I become more inclined to just leave my pistol in the safe and let the criminals have their way with me. ....

Well in your case, that might be anexcellent idea.

But someone who has been paying attention to this thread might have noticed my short discourse on the elements of risk management in post 16.

....overzealous prosecutors for the state....

And we see a lot of this drivel about "overzealous" prosecutors. Lawyers are supposed to zealously represent the interests of their clients. The client of the prosecutor is the State, and he is supposed to zealously prosecute crimes. Intentionally hurting or killing another human is a crime -- at least unless the evidence establishes that the act of violence was legally justified.

What about "overzealous" defense attorneys who get vicious predators off so that they can continue to walk the streets and prey on innocents?

...Does that line of thinking give the predators super rights over the victims.

Things are as they are.

And we here tend to have a fantasy that everyone who claims that his act of violence was in self defense is a fine, upstanding member of the community defending himself and loved ones. That's not true by any means.

Hoodlums will plead self defense when charged with assault during a barroom brawl. Career drug dealers will plead self defense when charged with murder during a drug transaction gone bad.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by P5 Guy:

Does using the same brand of gun and ammunition as the local LEOs make one a "WANNA BE COP" and vigilante spoiling for a confrontation with the criminal element?

Of course not. Why would it?

When I read discussions on these lines I become more inclined to just leave my pistol in the safe and let the criminals have their way with me.

Do so if you want to.

Everything can and will be used against me by overzealous prosecutors for the state.

The prosecutor may or may not be "overzealous". His or her duty is to present arguments to support a decision by the state to prosecute.

If you are involved in a use of force incident, the evidence available after the fact will be incomplete, piecemeal, and perhaps contradictory. If you claim self defense, you will admit to having threatened or used force, perhaps deadly; the question before the jury will be whether you had been lawfully justified in doing so.

But anyone who cannot reasonably argue that he did not "do the deed" will have few options, and may well claim self defense. Whether the actor had been lawfully justified will be determined by others later. The defendant will try to present evidence supporting a claim of self defense, and the prosecutor will challenge that evidence and present evidence against the claim of self defense. In a criminal trial, the state must prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, though in some states it's not quite that simple, since the defendant acknowledges having done the deed.

Beyond the criminal equation is the issue of civil liability. Did that light trigger pull contribute to a negligent discharge? The plaintiff need only prove by a preponderance of the evidence that it may well have led to injury or death.

Does that line of thinking give the predators super rights over the victims.

?????

 

[R.W.Dale]

Set aside the assumption of legal contortions after a SD situations.

What about legal liabilities in the event of a discharge not related to a SD altercation. You bet your brass the trigger will be examined in detail in such an event. By modifying the trigger you moved any possible liability from the manufacturer 100% to yourself.

It's my opinion that if you can't meet a suitable standard of accuracy or for that matter reliability with a particular SD CCW firearm without modification you need to choose a different gun.

 

[mljdeckard]

I tell my carry students, there are mods, and then there are mods. One mod I can never see any good coming from it, is disabling a safety. As for triggers, 4-5 lbs is probably a good rule. If Todd Jarrett has a lighter one, I suppose that's up to him. MOST people should spend more time on the range before they decide to lighten up a trigger.

You could do a lot worse than listening to Frank for advice here. The people making this decision will not have your experience and point of view. They may well have an agenda or an axe to grind. If we are redundant with our gear and our training, it doesn't make much sense if we don't also exercise a high degree of legal caution as well.

The problem with the "I would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six" mentality...is that it may well happen.

 

[JohnKSa]

When I read discussions on these lines I become more inclined to just leave my pistol in the safe and let the criminals have their way with me. Everything can and will be used against me by overzealous prosecutors for the state.

1. You have to be alive to be prosecuted.
2. Although it is certainly possible that if you ever have to shoot someone in self-defense the legal aftermath will be brutal; that shouldn't dissuade you from taking some simple steps that will likely keep things from getting as bad as they possibly could. What you're talking about is like throwing away your spare tire because someone pointed out that it might be flat when you need it if you don't check the air in it periodically.

 

[old lady new shooter]

I'd add that the difference between shooting a SA/DA in SA mode exacerbates any light trigger issues that may be pointed out by a prosecutor.
DA only or striker fired by their nature require a heavier and longer trigger cycle. When trying to reduce a DA pull, reliability suffers when springs are lightened so by nature they are less susceptible to the scrutiny by the prosecutors IMHO.

Happily the trigger on my 686 is nice and smooth just the way it came from the factory, and as a matter of personal preference I only shoot it DA. But I am curious to know whether there is a way to tell after the fact whether a shot was fired DA or SA? I.e. how could this issue come up in a trial?

 

[steve4102]

At the time I thought that was generally much ado about nothing, but has case law changed at all in the last decade?

Duno about case law or actual cases?

37 posts of some excellent advice and opinions, but I have not seen any actual court cases where a trigger pull/weight was a factor. Maybe I missed the links.

So, back to the Original question, has there ever been a Self Defense Court case where a Modified trigger was used against a defendant?

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by steve4102:

37 posts of some excellent advice and opinions, but I have not seen any actual court cases where a trigger pull/weight was a factor. Maybe I missed the links.

There are accounts in books by expert witnesses.

And the only way one would find out about them would be from a participant. No one compiles the datta.

But the real point is that most of the issues tend to be civil. Most such cases never go to court--the defendant and the plaintiff settle--and the terms are never made public--or the settlements are voided.

 

[Deanimator]

But the real point is that most of the issues tend to be civil. Most such cases never go to court--the defendant and the plaintiff settle--and the terms are never made public--or the settlements are voided.

That's the nice thing about Ohio. They can sue all day long, but if it's a justified shooting, they can't COLLECT.

Good luck finding a lawyer who'll work for free KNOWING that even if he WINS he'll never get paid.

 

[steve4102]

There are accounts in books by expert witnesses.

And the only way one would find out about them would be from a participant. No one compiles the datta.

But the real point is that most of the issues tend to be civil. Most such cases never go to court--the defendant and the plaintiff settle--and the terms are never made public--or the settlements are voided.

So, the answer to the OP's question is , "No".

There is no case law or cases that can be sited where a trigger pull weight was a factor in a Self Defense Shooting.

Got it, thanks.

 

[Sam1911]

That would be nice, but it's not possible to simply dismiss "hair triggers".

Since there is no legal definition of a "hair trigger", that will likely be part of the argument in the case against a person with a modified trigger. The other side could claim that your gun has a "hair trigger" (which opens up all the negative connotations that entails) while you will be trying to prove that it's not. And, remember, all of this will have to be proved to a group of people who are almost certainly not well-educated on the topic of firearms. Your only sure defense will be to demonstrate that the trigger pull weight meets some accepted standard of safety. Accepted by the jury, that is.

But this goes back to my previous question. How is the other side going to even have "hair trigger" on their radar? Unless you TELL them, deliberately, "Hey, before you put your case against me together I just wanted you to know that I modified this trigger to break at 4.5 lbs..." how hard are they going to have to dig (and to what end?) to find that particular nugget of information to bring up at trial?

So the forensics techs put in their report: "data, data, info, info, gun weighed 39 oz, serial number 0123456, 6.34" long, trigger pull weight measured 4.5 lbs, fired with test slug collected and tagged as exhibit item 98765, etc., etc."

Where is the red flag there that says, "Oooh, this guy probably MADE his gun have a 4.5 lb. trigger pull, instead of getting one from the factory with s 4.5 lb. trigger pull?" How does that become an issue? How does that supposition -- that you might have had trigger work done at some point -- even land on the prosecutor's desk? Or does he have a reference manual of expected trigger pull weights for all common handguns that he goes and double-checks against your reported trigger pull weight that he reads in the forensics report?

Unless you're wearing your, "I HEART HAIR TRIGGERS!" t-shirt when arrested, why is it even remotely reasonable to expect a prosecutor to be able to discern, let alone make hay out of, the fact that you had modified the trigger of your gun (to some roughly common weight)?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The weight of the trigger in a firearm comes up frequently in appeals cases; but the issue is usually raised by the Defendant as discussed in this thread (where I reviewed 123 state-level appeals cases involving hair triggers:
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-168825.html

A quick scan of Google Scholar shows about 60 new cases indexed, including several in which self-defense and accidental shootings were raised by the Defendant; but I've still not come across any cases where the prosecutor raised the issue in a case where only self-defense was asserted.

As to what constitutes a hair-trigger, the ol' "I didn't mean to shoot him, it was an accident." defense by criminals is common enough that most staate-level firearms forensic examiners will have given testimony on what they consider to be a hair trigger.

 

[JohnKSa]

How is the other side going to even have "hair trigger" on their radar?

That's been addressed already.

Here's a quote from post 25 which is taken from a Forensic Firearms manual.

One of the routine examinations conducted in a firearms identification examination is determining the trigger pull of a firearm.​

How does that become an issue? How does that supposition -- that you might have had trigger work done at some point -- even land on the prosecutor's desk?

These guys do this for a living and have experts working for them. It's a mistake to assume that they won't review the evidence looking for anomalies.

"Oooh, this guy probably MADE his gun have a 4.5 lb. trigger pull, instead of getting one from the factory with s 4.5 lb. trigger pull?"

If by this, you mean that the normal trigger pull from the manufacturer is about 4.5lbs and the user made his gun conform to the normal pull, it wouldn't. On the other hand, if it came with a 6lb trigger then it would be apparent that the manufacturer spec didn't match what was in the gun. 1.5lbs may not mean much to you, but it means enough to Glock that they won't sell you the parts to convert your duty/carry gun from a 6lb trigger to a 4.5lb trigger. In my opinion, that's likely to carry a lot of weight with a jury.

It's also important to keep in mind the civil aspect of this. It's not just a criminal issue. In a civil case it can often be clearly in the plaintiff's interest to be able to present evidence that the shooting may have been accidental.

 

[Old Fuff]

Unless you're wearing your, "I HEART HAIR TRIGGERS!" t-shirt when arrested, why is it even remotely reasonable to expect a prosecutor to be able to discern, let alone make hay out of, the fact that you had modified the trigger of your gun (to some roughly common weight)?

Many years ago the Old Fuff was occasionally called upon to testify as an expert witness about modifications to a firearm that might have a bearing on the case. When this happened it was usually because he was recommended to either a prosecutor or defense attorney. Usually things started when a face-to-face meeting was held between the expert and attorney, during which time the specific issues with the firearm were discussed. It was at this point the attorney gained enough insights from the expert to decide what he/she wanted to do next.

When the case involved a supposed malfunction of the firearm was the alleged cause of the incident rather then a deliberate shooting, attorneys on both sides would be conferring with they're respective experts concerning how each could present testimony or physical evidence to support they're side of the question.

When I was involved I would examine the gun and weigh the trigger pull to determine if it was below factory recommended standard. If it was the attorney could contact the manufacturer and usually get a sworn affidavit to what their exact specifications were. They might or might not request to have an opportunity to examine the evidence themselves.

I would then disassemble the gun and examine each part for signs that they had been modified. When guns leave the factory the internal parts are usually finished (blued, case hardened, plated, etc.) and if someone has "polished" them the lack of any remaining finish is substantial evidence that modification occurred.

Such modifications, in and of themselves, aren't necessarily bad, unless it can be shown that they in some way could have made the arm unexpectedly discharge.

My practice if I found evidence of tampering was to take detailed photographs of the individual parts, and support the images with written text explaining whatever the significance was. After that it was up to the receiving attorney to decide in what direction they wanted to go.

My main point is that an attorney does not (and usually is not) particularly knowledgeable about guns. Al they need is someone who is, bring them up to speed in a given area of the subject.

 

[X-Rap]

But I am curious to know whether there is a way to tell after the fact whether a shot was fired DA or SA? I.e. how could this issue come up in a trial?

I'm not aware of a forensic method that can be used to prove which way a SA/DA handgun has been fired. You will however probably be questioned multiple times as to how your part of the shooting happened and the truth has a way of being exposed.
You will also probably have any testimony reviewed by so called experts who may of may not substantiate your claims.
I recently caught one of the many crime shows in which the defendant claimed she accidentally shot he husband in the head while fanning the hammer after he said it was unloaded. When they showed the gun it was obviously DA capable which would generally preclude any possibility of fanning the hammer but cops were oblivious to this mechanical restriction and an expert claimed that through careful manipulation the gun could be fanned.
You can make your own judgement but i have a modern sampling of pretty much every popular SA/DA revolver and they will not fan in the sense that a SA will and it takes very careful and coordinated manipulation of hammer and trigger to even come close.
I hope that helps answer your question.

 

[JohnKSa]

But I am curious to know whether there is a way to tell after the fact whether a shot was fired DA or SA? I.e. how could this issue come up in a trial?

The DA hammer strike is lighter than the SA strike since the DA pull doesn't bring the hammer quite as far back as it is when it is fully cocked. (This is why it's critical to test a gun in both SA AND DA after any modifications are made to the trigger system--especially to the hammer spring--to insure it operates reliably in both modes.)

It might be possible, using the same ammunition used in the shooting and the firearm in question to compare primer strike on the fired cartridge with cartridges fired both DA and SA to see which one it resembles most.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Massed Ayoob and the Armed Citizens Defense Network have written extensively about this topic. Since Massad Ayoob spends considerable time in courtrooms I trust his advice. In essence, leave a factory trigger alone. For 1911s you are best if they are in the 4.5 to 5 lbs range. If you don't like the factory stock trigger, get a different firearm.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by steve4102:

So, the answer to the OP's question is , "No".

There is no case law or cases that can be sited where a trigger pull weight was a factor in a Self Defense Shooting.

Got it, thanks.

Where did you get that idea?

What do you define as "being a factor"?

Are you limiting "cases" to those that are actually tried, and eliminating those civil cases that are settled out of court? If so, why?

If the issue pertains to civil liability associated with an alleged negligent discharge, do you somehow think it matters whether a shooting incident involved a defense of justification based on a claim of self defense, or not? Why?

Why do you think that such organizations as the NYPD specify heavier trigger pulls that most of us might prefer?

For that matter, why do you think that numerous law enforcement agencies once prohibited the carrying of double action recovers that could be fired single action?

Regarding trial court proceedings, just how would you propose finding out how many cases may have been affected to one degree or other by the trigger pull of a firearm used in the case? Do you think that all of the transcripts of all of the cases in all of the courts in all of the counties in the United States are entered into a searchable database? Do you think that people have interviewed every juror in every trial involving handguns to ascertain what factors influenced the findings of each juror, and that the results have been nicely summarized?

Now let's move to the important question. Considering (1) the great rarity of shooting cases resulting in death or injury that involve modified trigger with light pulls in he first place, (2) the number of variables and other factors that might influence the outcome of a criminal or civil judgment, and (3) the difficulty in finding manful information about historical cases, would you, for one moment, base your risk assessment on an assertion that "there is no case law or cases that can be cited where a trigger pull weight was a factor in a self defense shooting."?

I certainly wouldn't.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Deanimator:

That's the nice thing about Ohio. They can sue all day long, but if it's a justified shooting, they can't COLLECT.

True just about everywhere, though a defendant may not have all of the same protections. Remember, it will be a civil jury that will define whether the shooting was justified, on the basis of the preponderance of the evidence standard. The failure of the state to pursue, or to prevail in, a criminal case with a BARD standard won't cut it.

Good luck finding a lawyer who'll work for free KNOWING that even if he WINS he'll never get paid.

If he wins, it was not justified, by definition.

But of course, the defendant may not have any money.

We have a sticky on the subject.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=9021938&postcount=1