More Evidence Against FMJs

[BHP FAN]

Remington has some HP's with the profile of FMJ's,that feed very well indeed.

 

[LRS_Ranger]

So much debate about such a simple thing... FMJ's penetrate deeper than HP's and MAY endanger an innocent bystander. BUT the risk of overpenetration is FAR LESS than the risk of missing the target altogether, as pointed out by a couple of previous posters. It's all a crap shoot, and while you may THINK that you will be able to tell what's behind your target (or to the sides in case of a miss), you can only hope that your training will kick in. I'll relay my one personal experience, maybe some LEO's here can post some personal experiences.

I had to pull my CC on someone once, and let me tell you, all I saw was the 'weapon' in his beltline, my hammer coming back, the cylinder revolving, and my sight post on his chest, in that order. Thinking back on it, I am glad I didn't have to shoot him. But also, I never once thought about what was behind him, while I was drawing. I was vaguely aware that there were only 3 people there, but not all their exact locations. I TRAIN not to shoot innocent bystanders. Think IDPA no-shoots in a 3D target field. I'm very careful about safety and would never endanger anyone if I could help it. But all that mattered in that one adrenaline soaked second was putting him down so I could go home and see my daughter again. That's it. I'm not trying to say anyone's wrong, but it's easy to say what you would or wouldn't do before you get put in a "situation". When you think that someone is going to kill you, you get tunnel vision.

 

[TCB in TN]

I am not getting into the finer points of caliber, vs speed vs fatso.

Then like many others you miss the point that in certain cals, more penetration is necessary to ensure it is effective.

My take on this is that if you fear the overpenetration of FMJ pistol rounds, you need to forget using shotgun slugs, or high powered rifles for self defense. Both have a tendency to penetrate deeper, and shoot further, than handguns. Seems illogical and inconsistent to limit ammo for handguns when using even more powerful rounds for the long guns.

Boy that sure makes sense. I have heard many on here who are arguing against ANY use of FMJ that comment that a handgun is only to use to fight your way to your long gun!

 

[barrow]

Anyone read Chuck Taylor's article on .45 hardball in Combat Handguns a while back? He said he had personally seen five instances where it was used against a human being. Might add all five were one shot stops, too. He said overpenetration was almost never a problem; if the bullet passed through at all it was often found lying on the floor a short distance beyond the target.

I tend to listen to those with actual combat experience.

Remember this is from a man who embraced the Glock. New, 'cutting edge', but not the latest super duper man killer ammo.

 

[Gunfighter123]

My take on this is that if you fear the overpenetration of FMJ pistol rounds, you need to forget using shotgun slugs, or high powered rifles for self defense. Both have a tendency to penetrate deeper, and shoot further, than handguns. Seems illogical and inconsistent to limit ammo for handguns when using even more powerful rounds for the long guns.

Boy that sure makes sense. I have heard many on here who are arguing against ANY use of FMJ that comment that a handgun is only to use to fight your way to your long gun!

And to think of how I was belittled and made fun of { gonna get attacked by a flock of ducks etc.} when I stated that the first round in my HD shotgun was Hi-Brass birdshot and then followed by 00 Buck and lastly by teo Slugs !!!!

I had to pull my CC on someone once, and let me tell you, all I saw was the 'weapon' in his beltline, my hammer coming back, the cylinder revolving, and my sight post on his chest, in that order. Thinking back on it, I am glad I didn't have to shoot him. But also, I never once thought about what was behind him, while I was drawing. I was vaguely aware that there were only 3 people there, but not all their exact locations. I TRAIN not to shoot innocent bystanders. Think IDPA no-shoots in a 3D target field. I'm very careful about safety and would never endanger anyone if I could help it. But all that mattered in that one adrenaline soaked second was putting him down so I could go home and see my daughter again. That's it. I'm not trying to say anyone's wrong, but it's easy to say what you would or wouldn't do before you get put in a "situation". When you think that someone is going to kill you, you get tunnel vision.

EXACTLY to the point !!!! I have been on both ends of a fired gun --- "tunnel vision" is putting it mildly . Both times that I've been shot , it was like my brain telling me to move BUT the bullet got to me WAY FASTER.

As to HPs being the end all etc. ---- better not shoot any skinny BGs !!! And forget about "head shots" or if you miss COM and hit a arm etc. etc.

FLAME ME if you want ----- in my HD handguns , I load them like my shotgun ---- a Glasser Safety Slug first , some hollow points/soft points , and then a few FMJs ---- like the birdshot in my SG , if the Glasser Safety Slug don't stop them at once , I can double or triple tap them with HPs/SPs , and if they try to then hide behind cover , I hope the FMJs will find them.

As most here should know ---- GUN WRITERS get PAID TO WRITE !!!! What they say/print this month/year may not be the same as next year. As to NEVER use FMJs as a end all statement I find flawed.

 

[Full Metal Jacket]

like this is breaking news? come on, who didn't know fmj penetrate more than jhp's. please. must have been a slow news day for mr. ayoob.

 

[Onmilo]

I think Ayoob brings up some good points about FMJ bullets having a tendency to overpenetrate and i think some of the previous posters offer some valid points about the bullets dropping energy very quickly after exiting the initial target.

You have to remember Ayoob tends to lean his decisions based on a litigeous eye.

If a bullet overpenetrates and hits an innocent bystander, the shooter will most certainly face civil, if not additionally, criminal charges and Ayoobs opinion is geared towards minimizing that risk.

I live in the backwoods out of the way and have no problem using FMJ ammo for defense because my family isn't known for getting behind a target and my nearest neighbor is well out of harms way from a semi expended overpenetrating bullet.
People living in apartments or paper thin houses set close enough you can carry on a normal level conversation with your neighbor with the windows closed may well consider a bullet design that only achieves a limited level of penetration in a living flesh target.

 

[jon_in_wv]

The bullets do lose some energy but not enough. NYPD had several officers and inoocent bystanders wounded by pass through bullets when they were using FMJs. I believe its in the Ayoob article the above guys were talking about.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Considering that aprx 80-85% of shots fired in a gunfight miss their intended target, does it really make sense to worry about over penetration by the ones that do hit? When you factor in the rather dismal numbers for expansion reliability of most hollow points when fired through clothing I think there is even less of an argument. The absolute best ammunition to carry is whichever one you feel the most comfortable with. The one that best suits you. For me, that means harball in autos and hp in revolvers.

 

[zignal_zero]

Ragnar -

i noticed your sig line.

Please use capital letters and punctuation properly in your post. It makes you seem like an ignorant child when you don't.

shouldn't there be a comma in between the words "child" and "when"?

i totally agree with making every effort to avoid over penetration. i do like to keep at least one mag of FMJ handy, though. the logic behind this is - i go to places where the idea to take a few practice shots can be very spontaneous. most of my friends have large yards with backstops. so, i keep a mag of plinkers and some ear plugs with me, at all times

 

[Hacker15E]

shouldn't there be a comma in between the words "child" and "when"

No. Punctuation correction fail.

 

[jon_in_wv]

After five pages we have gone from FMJs vs HPs to punctuation correction??