More on single action speed shooting

[Combat Engineer]

"As far as "it's first shot from the holster for me," ...it's not as fast as already having the gun out. If I encountered a bear that might charge, it'd be prudent to carefully draw the gun and have it instantly ready instead of relying on my lightning fast draw should he decide to charge." [David E]

David, David, David. You misinterpret. Quick draw is for an ambush wherein I have simply not spotted the predator, and he is in my face. Bears are speedy, stealthy too.

If the bear is further out and I have spotted him, I slowly draw my gun, spread my arms out and sing an aria from a favorite opera... if that doesn't send him packing, and he continues his advance, since I cannot outrun the bear, I must use my traditional equalizer to thwart the deadly threat.

 

[CraigC]

It's worth pointing out that the the .454 Freedom Arms is generating 40ft-lbs of recoil energy. My .38Spl load in the sixgun I posted times with, 3.2ft-lbs. Your average .45ACP 230gr hardball load, 6.5ft-lbs. That's a big difference.

A .500Maximum, 73ft-lbs.

Yes, 2.8secs for five shots from a .454 is really fast.

Prove me wrong. Real easy.

 

[MrBorland]

Yes, 2.8secs for five shots from a .454 is really fast.

I agree (though I admit to never having shot anything hotter than a .44mag from a handgun). Towsley's shooting skill was impressive and fun to watch.

 

[David E]

I can see that we are not going to get to discuss five shots in less than three seconds with a .454 single action so I'll respond once more and leave this discussion to its own fate.

You will?

Statements were made in other discussions that SA's are only run fast with mousefart loads and that one could never come close to the DA's speed with full power loads.

You should copy and paste EXACTLY what you're talking about from that other thread.

In that thread, _I_ made several points:

1) guys touting how fast a single action can be fired (5 shots under one second) are using mouse fart loads.

2) guys shooting 5 shots in under a second are using two hands.

3) when two hands are used, the speed difference between SA and DA is inconsequential.

4) my concern about using a single action revolver for defense was about how fast you could shoot it using only ONE hand.

Craig C forgets my points #3 and #4, so he is "putting to rest" a point I never offered.

If he's suggesting 2.88 is just as fast as .99, well, it's not.

If he's suggesting a top CAS competitor can shoot 5 shots from a .454 in under a second, please post the video.

If he's saying 2.88 is pretty dang fast for a .454, ok, it's pretty dang fast for a .454. I just don't see how that applies to anything said, especially by me, in that other thread.

Bryce's work refutes that.....

Again, how? He didn't compare it to a DA revolver, so how do we know which one he shoots faster?

 

[35 Whelen]

Towsley's shooting was quite impressive, the others, well looks like they may need to get out of the office more.

I know it's irrelevant, but I've never quite understood the point of carrying a 3+ lb. revolver that generates a horrendous amount of recoil, muzzle flash and muzzle blast for "bear defense" when for less than two more pounds a fella could sling a 16 1/2" lever action carbine in 45 Colt over his shoulder. Said carbine would provide power similar to that of the revolver in question, carry a couple or three more rounds, be infinitely easier to shoot accurately, and when the charging bear forgot to expire, make a far better club!

35W

 

[David E]

David, David, David. You misinterpret. Quick draw is for an ambush wherein I have simply not spotted the predator, and he is in my face. Bears are speedy, stealthy too.

Combat, Combat, Combat, I said I don't dismiss the skill of a fast draw at all! It can prove essential. All I'm saying is, it's foolish to rely on it if you don't have to.

If the bear is further out and I have spotted him, I slowly draw my gun, spread my arms out and sing an aria from a favorite opera... if that doesn't send him packing, and he continues his advance, since I cannot outrun the bear, I must use my traditional equalizer to thwart the deadly threat.

Agreed!

 

[45_auto]

Statements were made in other discussions that SA's are only run fast with mousefart loads and that one could never come close to the DA's speed with full power loads. Bryce's work refutes that or at least should contribute to some interesting discussion.

Seems to me Bryce's work only refutes that if you believe that 5 shots of .454 Casull in 2.88 seconds is fast.

Still almost 3 times slower than a DA shooting more powerful (500 S&W, 300 gr Hornady FTX, 2000 FPS/2800 ft-lb at muzzle) loads.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOzyqiT1FFA

 

[MrBorland]

<veer> I don't take anything away from Jerry's skill, but his math on these kinds of shoots is always fuzzy. As usual, he subtracts out the first shot time, then claims the remaining time is the time for all shots. </veer>

 

[David E]

I don't take anything away from Jerry's skill, but his math on these kinds of shoots is always fuzzy. As usual, he subtracts out the first shot time, then claims the remaining time is the time for all shots.

The other guys were starting AIMED IN, HAMMER COCKED and FINGER ON TRIGGER.

Jerry started at relaxed low ready. First shot was a leisurely 1.04

TOTAL TIME of 2.18, BEFORE subtracting the first shot.

500 Magnum puts the .454 to shame regarding foot pounds and 2.18 beats 2.88 all week long and twice on Sunday.

2.88 is only 75.9% as fast as 2.18

This settles the SA vs DA argument.

 

[MrBorland]

Seems fuzzy math's been used on every speed demo I've seen of JM's, including his 6-reload-6 record.

I called it a "veer" because I'm not interested in arguing how Towsley's shooting compares to DA shooting, nor did I read that it was part of the OPs intent*. As far as I'm concerned, CraigC posted a vid of some good shooting. Pretty plain and simple.



*come to think of it, then, most of this thread seems to have been a veer.

 

[CraigC]

Craig C forgets my points #3 and #4, so he is "putting to rest" a point I never offered.

For the third time, I never attributed any statement to you. Period. I only mentioned your name to reference the thread you started about the drill you went through and the fact that it wasn't derided because you didn't start from the holster.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=756908

I know it's irrelevant, but I've never quite understood the point of carrying a 3+ lb. revolver that generates a horrendous amount of recoil, muzzle flash and muzzle blast for "bear defense" when for less than two more pounds a fella could sling a 16 1/2" lever action carbine in 45 Colt over his shoulder.

Because carbines don't fit into belt holsters that can be carried all day.

Seems to me Bryce's work only refutes that if you believe that 5 shots of .454 Casull in 2.88 seconds is fast.

It is fast and if you don't think it's fast, post something better. You're referencing Jerry Friggin' Miculek and I agree, the math is a little suspect. If you're gonna compare the two, his total time was 2:18. It's Jerry Miculek, the average person is not going to be able to shoot a .500 DA that fast. I invite anybody who wants to come here and shoot my .480 SRH as fast as they want, using my timer. It will be loaded with a 355gr LBT at 1400fps.

 

[David E]

Seems fuzzy math's been used on every speed demo I've seen of JM's, including his 6-reload-6 record.

It's only fuzzy if you don't know how they arrived at their numbers. It was very clear how they got there. To call it "fuzzy math" implies intentional deception. Everyone else who attempts the feat will use the same standard.

I called it a "veer" because I'm not interested in arguing how Towsley's shooting compares to DA shooting, nor did I read that it was part of the OPs intent*. As far as I'm concerned, CraigC posted a vid of some good shooting. Pretty plain and simple.

CraigC is referencing another thread where SA vs DA was one of the main points.

 

[CraigC]

First shot was a leisurely 1.04

It wasn't leisurely, he was being careful, as you have to be when dealing with such recoil. If you knew what you were talking about, I wouldn't have to explain this to you.

500 Magnum puts the .454 to shame regarding foot pounds...

No it doesn't. That 4" barrel is going to limit velocity to around the .454's level. For a relatively light bullet in the .500, they are equal. Load it with 525's and things will change.

And Jerry's .500 has a compensator.

This settles the SA vs DA argument.

Really??? You think comparing the shooting of a world class competition shooter, easily one of the best who ever lived, to the shooting of a hunter and gunwriter settles it? Unless we get a world class CAS or fastdraw shooter at work with a .454 or .500, it settles nothing.

...nor did I read that it was part of the OPs intent.

It wasn't but if we want to talk about it, my single action, one handed times were a half second slower than David E's with a double action. A guy with a single action who has never shot against a clock in his life, against a guy with a double action who shoots in competition against the clock all the time. If we wanna get down and dirty, I think that is interesting.

 

[David E]

For the third time, I never attributed any statement to you. Period.

Ok. Play coy.

You're referencing Jerry Friggin' Miculek and I agree, the math is a little suspect. If you're gonna compare the two, his total time was 2:18. It's Jerry Miculek, the average person is not going to be able to shoot a .500 DA that fast.

Well, who is Bryce Towsley when it comes to shooting?

The last staffer did it under 3 seconds and who the hell is he? I'm sure it's not something he practiced before, yet, he made the time. Made Towsley's effort rather anti climactic

 

[CraigC]

Play coy.

Believe it or not, I'm not here to play games or call you out. I wanted to have a productive discussion and you seem determined act as if I did. Sorry but it's not about you.

 

[35 Whelen]

Because carbines don't fit into belt holsters that can be carried all day.

Yeah, but there's no need to carry a carbine in a holster, now is there? Too, it's no big deal to carry a lever rifle that weighs less than an M1 carbine all day.

35W

 

[CraigC]

Rifles can always get put down. A handgun can be worn at all times, while doing other things.

 

[David E]

Believe it or not, I'm not here to play games or call you out. I wanted to have a productive discussion and you seem determined act as if I did. Sorry but it's not about you.

No, it's all about you being upset about this thread being derailed over the draw whilst mine was not. You've only referenced it 6 times, 5 of which after you claimed to be done with this thread.

I think Towsley's 2.88 with good hits IS pretty good, but the staffer showed it wasn't only iimmortals or shooting legends that could accomplish the feat.

 

[CraigC]

I think Towsley's 2.88 with good hits IS pretty good, but the staffer showed it wasn't only iimmortals or shooting legends that could accomplish the feat.

The staffer was just dumping it. Towsley was on target and more controlled. It was more than "pretty good". You obviously don't have the experience to know just how good it was.

I'll bet you $100 you can't beat it.

 

[David E]

Sure!

Send me your Freedom Arms and 15 rounds of .454 and I'll post the video. Be sure to include a crisp Benjamin to save on postage.

 

[David E]

David E said:

his first shot was a leisurely 1.04

CraigC said:

It wasn't leisurely, he was being careful, as you have to be when dealing with such recoil. If you knew what you were talking about, I wouldn't have to explain this to you.

Your condescension is becoming comical. Just sayin'.....

If YOU knew Jerry, you'd know that 1.04 from low ready is "leisurely" for him.

Of course he was being careful, but you and Borland were accusing him of "fuzzy math" by factoring out the first shot time (and telling everyone about it) while totally overlooking Towsley starting AIMED IN, HAMMER COCKED and FINGER ON TRIGGER.
Had Jerry started that way, total time would've been 1.29 or less

 

[rswartsell]

ClickClickD'oh,

These guys were simply (except Towlsley) exploring what it would take to equal the man's claim (and apparently providing some second guessers a moment of virtual superiority). Towlsley scored, very close range? Yep. Deadly effect? I would say so. I am not saying he is a superman, quite the opposite. He developed the ability to prove it is doable as a last ditch dangerous animal defense regardless of any second guessing hubris.

The line you didn't rebut was about your superior performance. I wonder, have you ever tried this? Or have you tried wearing a 12 ga. slug gun in a holster as a backup to your Alaska grade high power rifle? Not a great deal of Alaska hunting done with 12 ga. is my understanding. If so definitely post a vid of that. That would be one interesting hunt.

 

[BCRider]

....and sing an aria from a favorite opera...

GOOD LORD! ! ! ! ! YOU'LL HAVE THE PETA LEGIONS OUT AFTER US IF YOU SING ANYTHING LIKE I DO! ! ! ! ! !

All the pissing and moaning aside in this thread up to now I've shot some .454Casull. And I've shot my share of single and double action guns. I have to say that Towsley's performance impressed me all to helln'gone. I could shoot 5 as fast, although my hands would sure protest, or I could hit the target like he did. But I'm not sure I could do both at the same time ! ! ! ! ! ! So I for one am impressed!

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

The line you didn't rebut was about your superior performance.

That's the great thing about this place. There's always someone willing to make it personal.

"Oh yea, you can't do <insert stupid shooting trick> so clearly <irrelevant point> must stand!!!"

I hope you realize how completely ludicrous it is to imply that since I haven't posted a video of me wasting time and ammunition, these guys clearly must not be completely missing the target as seen in the video and they are some how proving something other than that they can look stupid on tape.

Honestly, if I posted a video of me trying to shoot fast and completely missing the target, I should be the target or ridicule too. Somehow these guys have developed magic ridicule shields simply by the virtue of looking stupid shooting high powered single action firearms.

LOL

Look, I get it. You guys love you Single Action guns and want desperately to prove they are relevant. That's great. I love my .45 Blackhawk. I wear it around the ranch all the time. It's taken more coyotes, bobcats, armadillos, racoons and skunks than all my other guns combined. But when I'm in a place where something might try to kill me, it's not coming.

Whooptie do, one out of five guys managed to do the drill. That's great... for guy number five. Now, egos may convince people that they are all the fifth guy, not the other four, but no one told the bear. Unless you are honest to god actually all the fifth guy, a rational person should look at the video and reconsider their choices.

However, if you really, really want a video. Ship me some .45-70 and I'll happily post video all day of me hitting a ten inch circle at five yards. I hope I get to start with the rifle shouldered and hammer back. I'll also do the same with a slug gun if you want.

Or have you tried wearing a 12 ga. slug gun in a holster as a backup to your Alaska grade high power rifle?

Actually, when I'm in dangerous territory I African carry a .45-70.

Not a great deal of Alaska hunting done with 12 ga. is my understanding. If so definitely post a vid of that. That would be one interesting hunt.

Question, are you saying from direct knowledge that people don't use slug guns in Alaska, or are you speaking from your third point of contact.

I have a good friend up in Alaska that recently retired from being a trooper. He always refers to his AR as his people gun and his shotgun as his bear gun.

I thought it was pretty common wisdom that slug guns were commonly accepted for dangerous game encounters. Oh well, just goes to show you that common wisdom isnt...

 

[45_auto]

Really??? You think comparing the shooting of a world class competition shooter, easily one of the best who ever lived, to the shooting of a hunter and gunwriter settles it? Unless we get a world class CAS or fastdraw shooter at work with a .454 or .500, it settles nothing.

Seems to me that as long as it's just internet BS and one person it really doesn't mean much. The best at anything is going to be exceptional, and irrelevant to the typical shooter. The vast majority of shooters have no idea of how bad they really are since they've never compared themselves to any type of standard.

If you want to prove how fast a SA is vs a DA, then pick any standardized course of fire (CASS, IDPA, FBI, POST Police, whatever), specify a minimum loading level, and have a bunch of people run the course with each type of action.

In the real world, you'll find that there will be a normal (bell curve - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution) distribution of times for each type of action. There will be one or two extremely fast shooters of each action type (Miculek, Bryce, etc) and one or two extremely slow shooters of each action type (typical HR posters? ). The bell curve for each type of action will overlap, with some of the SA shooters beating some of the DA shooters. It's entirely possible (but not very likely) that a very gifted SA shooter will turn in the fastest time. However, you'll find that the dominant trend will be for DA times to be faster than SA times.

In the real world, there's a reason that the single action was replaced by the double action, and the double action was replaced by semi-automatics for serious self-defense purposes. Although for a US civilian, it really won't make much difference.

Should be easy enough to prove for yourself which is faster. Repeat the same drill on a paper plate at 5 yards that you did with a SA with a DA, and then a semi-auto.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9520330&highlight=timer#post9520330]

Using the parameters set within the previous thread, five shots at 5yds, from the low ready position with thumb on uncocked hammer, the preliminary results were as follows:

1.5secs using two hands, cocking with the weak side thumb.

2.6secs using one hand.

Try the same drill using an equivalent double action, then a semi-auto and see how your times compare. Those seem like pretty fast times for a SA but pretty slow for a DA or semi-auto shooting .38 Special equivalents to me. I like SA's, have a ton of them, but for self-defense purposes the vast majority of people are a LOT faster and more effective with a DA or semi-auto.

Between the rain and house renovation here, I haven't had a chance to shoot David E's course of fire either. I'd really like to see how my times compare. Doesn't look good for this weekend, raining now and it's just supposed to get worse.