Old School Single Action-Safe With Full Cylinder

[bergmen]

I just bought a new Cimarron 1872 Open Top Navy in .38 that is an unbelievable joy to shoot (and extremely accurate to boot).



A little action smoothing, trigger work and overall deburring, lubricating and slicking up:



I was messing around with the action and discovered what I think is a safe way to handle this with a full cylinder (all six rounds loaded) since this particular revolver does not have a "safety notch" like more modern single actions do.

From the half cock hammer position, rotate the cylinder so the space between cartridge rims lines up with the firing pin. Lower the hammer and the firing pin will protrude from the inside surface of the recoil shield just between the cartridge rims:



There is a small amount of rotational play that keeps the cylinder in place. Pulling the hammer to full cock from this position correctly indexes the cylinder for firing.

I've never seen anyone mention this method, always indicating that it is safest to carry with the hammer down on an open chamber.

This could work with other revolvers also if there is enough room between rims to accept the firing pin. My Freedom Arms Model 83 in .454 Casull could be made to work this way if I have the cylinder slightly modified with a small blind hole drilled to accept the firing pin in the five locations between the rims.

Any thoughts on this?

Dan

 

[CraigC]

This is an old school trick. I really don't think there is any practical safety issue with it but personally, I don't care for it strictly because it rests the bolt on the cylinder between the leedes. If you're comfortable with that, I really don't see a problem with it.

 

[rcmodel]

Lowering a SA hammer from the half-cock notch is very hard on the bolt, as it must snap over the hammer cam going the wrong way.

It also leads to a nasty 'ring around the cylinder' eventually.

Best practice on any SA is once the hammer starts back?
Finish cocking it all the way and then lower it.

That keeps the bolt / hammer cam interaction happy, doesn't put added stress on the bolts flat spring arm, and doesn't allow bolt drag on the cylinder to happen.

rc

 

[bergmen]

Thanks Craig, RC., very good points.

I did notice the potential for drag marks between the leedes. When I had it apart I polished the surface of the bolt face to a mirror which helps prevent scratches on the cylinder.

I hadn't thought of the bolt spring being overworked, that is a good point. I think I'll skip the idea and just load five if I'm going to holster it.

This is one sweet single action, though!

Dan

 

[Indifferent]

Are those scratches/gouges supposed to be on the cylinder?

 

[bergmen]

Are those scratches/gouges supposed to be on the cylinder?

That is actually an engraved Naval battle scene from an engagement between the US Navy and Mexico, in the Gulf of Mexico on May 16, 1843. The US Navy lost that one.

One thing I forgot to mention in my original post is I got the idea of "between the rims" hammer placement because that is how my old 1860 Army percussion cap and ball revolver would be made safe after loading. There were pins between the percussion caps and a small notch at the base of the hammer strike face that would engage these pins with the hammer down. Since the 1872 Open Top is a replica of a converted cap and ball, I figured it would be much the same thing.

Dan

 

[CraigC]

Stressing the bolt is definitely a legitimate concern, particularly with Italian replicas which may not be of the finest metallurgy or properly tuned.

The new Open Tops are wonderful sixguns. Mine is an Army gripped Cimarron .44Colt and it's one of my favorites. They were not actually conversions. They were Colt's first big bore cartridge revolver, built on a new dedicated cartridge frame. Rather than a converted percussion gun.

 

[bergmen]

Stressing the bolt is definitely a legitimate concern, particularly with Italian replicas which may not be of the finest metallurgy or properly tuned.

The new Open Tops are wonderful sixguns. Mine is an Army gripped Cimarron .44Colt and it's one of my favorites. They were not actually conversions. They were Colt's first big bore cartridge revolver, built on a new dedicated cartridge frame. Rather than a converted percussion gun.

I understand about stressing the bolt. I also am concerned about putting marks on the cylinder between leedes so I'm not going to try my little trick above.

You are right, these are excellent shooters. I had a chance to take this out to the range briefly to check the work I did and man is this smooth and slick right now. I spent considerable time smoothing and spiffing up all working surfaces and this revolver is butter smooth in every operation. It has the best trigger release of all my SA revolvers now.

I found all of the internal parts tight but rough. Plenty of opportunities to smooth interaction without risking looseness. Still tight but super smooth.

This is going to be one of my favorite single actions. If I didn't have a Ruger Bisley in .45 Colt I would look at the big bores.

Dan

 

[CraigC]

I had to do quite a bit of stoning on mine too and swapped out all the springs. It needed the work but wasn't near as rough as my 3rd generation New Frontier. It later developed a burr in the hand slot but that was easily fixed. The trigger is a nice and crisp 2lbs. It's a fine shooter and shoots right to its miniscule sights. I usually load a Hornady 240gr swaged SWC/HP or a commercial cast 240gr SWC.

 

[Jim K]

"Lowering a SA hammer from the half-cock notch is very hard on the bolt, as it must snap over the hammer cam going the wrong way."

Howzat again?

BTW, that naval engagement was between the Texas Navy and the Mexican Navy, which Texas won. Colt apparently used it because he considered Texas a large market for his revolvers. (Old Sam would have done very well in today's "ad, ad, ad world"; he was a marketing genius.)

Jim

 

[bergmen]

Texas[/U] Navy and the Mexican Navy, which Texas won. Colt apparently used it because he considered Texas a large market for his revolvers. (Old Sam would have done very well in today's "ad, ad, ad world"; he was a marketing genius.)

Jim

Yep, got that one wrong. It was the Battle of Campeche with a combination of Republic of Texas and Republic of Yucatan vessels against Mexican warships. Some accounts indicate both battles (April 30, 1843 and May 16, 1843) were "draws". No matter, it is a cool scene!

Dan

 

[rcmodel]

Howzat again?

The hammer cam is ramped to cam the locking bolt spring sideways and compress it as it climbs up the cam while cocking the hammer.

If you lower the hammer from half cock, the high edge of the cam contacts the bolt spring arm from the high side of the cam, and it must be forced out of the way hard to snap back over it.

This is a photo of a hammer cam.


Unfortunately, mill marks and burs make it unusable in the present condition shown in the photo.

It must be polished glass smooth and all sharp edges beveled or you will sooner or later wear out the cam & bolt spring.
Or break the bolt spring arm right off the bat.

rc

 

[45 Dragoon]

The arm of the bolt that rides on the cam does not move off the cam until it travels far enough for the bolt to rise against the cyl. (the second click of an open top, 3rd click of an s.a.a.). So, letting the hammer down from half cock only leaves some stress to the bolt spring. If your bolts arm travels off the cam by half cock, you have a big timing prob.

 

[35 Whelen]

I have Cimarron and Uberti '73's, both .44 Special. The Uberti is a 4 3/4" and is my "working" pistol as I carry it just about anytime I'm outside the house. I carried it loaded, with the hammer on an empty cylinder until it warmed up (rattlesnakes) at which time I wanted to keep one shot load in the cylinder without reducing the number of 260 gr. SWC's I keep in it. So, I do the same as mentioned above, the firing pin rests between cartridges. If it wears the bolt out, so be it, I have a new one waiting to be installed.
The bolts on these pistols seem to be fairly "springy", so really I don't look for anything to wear out.

 

[45 Dragoon]

You are perfectly fine. There is no strain on the bolt what so ever. There is partial tension on the bolt spring and that's all. In fact with the bolt resting on the cyl. and the hammer down, the arm that rides the cam is not even in contact with the cam. The cam will pick up the arm on the way to full cock when you thumb it back. This is easy to watch if you take off your trig. guard and watch how it all works. The cam will push the bolt arm to the side on its way back down. Then the two clicks that nobody talks about will happen. The first one is the hand slipping over the next ratchet tooth and the 2nd is the bolt arm slipping over the top of the cam , ready to ride the cam up again. Its a wonderful mechanical thing !!!!!!
I keep 6 in my Dragoons at all times.

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

Too bad nobody makes a 12 notch cylinder, at least on the 38 caliber cylinders like Colt originally started doing on their early cartridge conversion revolvers. The problem was it made the cylinder walls awfully thin where the extra notches were on 44 caliber cylinders, but I think it would not be a problem on 38 caliber cylinder. I have seen pictures of original 44 caliber guns where the notches were broken though on a 12 notch cylinder.

 

[45 Dragoon]

That might be a solution but, the small amount of movement allowed with hammer down between chambers shouldn't be too big of a deal. If your bolt is polished and crowned correctly, you wont have a mark. If you have a sharp cutting edge, then you will get marks depending on how much movement you have. Another reason I keep six in is the Kirst cyls. have a boss between each chamber. The bosses have a hole that the firing pin occupies with the hammer down. It's the opposite of the notched hammer/ pin in the cyl. that Colts had.

 

[Pointshoot]

Very interesting thread.

I thought I read about doing this somewhere.

If I ever have to defend myself Josie Wales style with a single action, this is good to know.

 

[45 Dragoon]

The bolt has the toughest job of all ( and seems to be the most mysterious as to what it does / how it does it) . All timing revolves (no pun) around it, and yet we ask it to " GET OUT OF THA WAY !!!! . . . . STOP THAT SCREAMING CYLINDER !!!!!! . . . . . NOW !!!! . . . OK, GET OUT OF THA WAY!!!!. . . . STOP THAT SCREAMING CYLINDER AGAIN !!!!!! . . . . . NOW !!!!!!!! All that in less than a tenth of a second !!! Holy Cow !! That's why I lighten the bolt as much as poss. just trying to help the poor feller out !!!!!

Bolts, Barrel / Cylinder gaps and Wedges. AAAHHHH the pleasures of open tops!!

 

[Drail]

Ahhh, the old days when a man could fix a pistol on the back of his wagon with hand tools.

 

[Slamfire]

I don't think that is a safe way to carry the gun.

The cylinder is not mechanically fixed in place, the cylinder bolt is between notches.

All it takes is a little push on the hammer and the firing pin moves back and the cylinder can rotate. When it stops the firing pin will be right over the primer.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Not on my guns! I just checked and the "little bit" of movement would have to bring my hammer to the 1/2 cock notch before the hand would move the cyl. That would be the place it would need to be to load it . . . . . hmmmmm.


I will be the first to admit though that hammer down on empty would be THE most safe way to carry but for me and my comfort zone (i'm old) 6 is more than 5. I tote, don't carry. And most of all, . . . . I can! Hell, I'm 56 but that used to be old. What's more, I'm still strong and like totting these big 'ol Dragoons . . . . . with 6 not 5.

By the way Drail, you're right. I just kaint find my wagon!!!