35 Whelen
Member
Been thinking more about this. Is the half-cock safety on a revolver any more or less safe than that found on virtually all lever action rifles?
35W
35W
Single Action Revolver Safety
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Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy
No, it is not. The 'safety notch' on the hammer of most lever guns is no more robust than the 'safety notch' on a single action revolver hammer. As a matter of fact, I have an Uberti replica of the Winchester Model 1873 that I bought used a bunch of years ago. The previous owner had botched up a trigger job on it, and soon after I bought the gun the 'safety notch' broke clean off the hammer. I had to replace the hammer and trigger.
No, it is not. The 'safety notch' on the hammer of most lever guns is no more robust than the 'safety notch' on a single action revolver hammer. As a matter of fact, I have an Uberti replica of the Winchester Model 1873 that I bought used a bunch of years ago. The previous owner had botched up a trigger job on it, and soon after I bought the gun the 'safety notch' broke clean off the hammer. I had to replace the hammer and trigger.
35 Whelen
Member
I brought the lever action thing up because while people wring their hands and worry themselves sick over the half-cock safety on SA revolvers, I've never seen a single thread discussing the dangers of carrying, say, a Winchester '94 loaded and on half-cock.
Over the years I've carried a couple of Marlin's in the field, a model 375 and a 1895 and never gave carrying them on half-cock a second thought. Same this year when I carried my Uberti short rifle deer hunting.
35W
Over the years I've carried a couple of Marlin's in the field, a model 375 and a 1895 and never gave carrying them on half-cock a second thought. Same this year when I carried my Uberti short rifle deer hunting.
35W
No. But from what I have heard, that notch isn't real strong. Doubt hickok45 wanted to mess up his colt.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
I suspect part of the reason is that if a lever gun is dropped, it is not very likely it will fall directly onto the hammer. The geometry of a lever gun is such that if the thing happened to be upside down when it was dropped, probably either the muzzle or the butt would strike the ground first. And if it was dropped onto soft dirt it probably would not matter anyway.
If a revolver is dropped it is much more likely to land on its hammer.
In his book Shooting Colt Single Actions, Mike Venturino writes about once seeing a guy laying in a pool of his own blood. The guy "had shot himself through the chest by dropping a traditionally-styled single action after loading all six chambers. He didn't even make it to the hospital." Page 173, Shooting Colt Single Actions by Mike Venturino.
Venturino has forgotten more than I will ever know about shooting single actions. He states "You never, ever, put six rounds in a Colt revolver or any sort of copy or replica - and then carry the damn thing around! If that hammer is resting on a live round and you drop the gun, it most probably will land on the hammer and go off".
What's good enough for Mike is good enough for me.
Modernhoglegs
Member
Lever-Action Hammer
I have to admit that I never thought about the lever action half-cock as being an issue. I had a Marlin 1894C, and it had the cross bolt safety, but I never used it. I always left it on half-cock.
Guess I was prejudiced by all of my side hammer percussion muzzleloaders where carrying on half-cock is the only way to carry it.
Something to think about.
I have to admit that I never thought about the lever action half-cock as being an issue. I had a Marlin 1894C, and it had the cross bolt safety, but I never used it. I always left it on half-cock.
Guess I was prejudiced by all of my side hammer percussion muzzleloaders where carrying on half-cock is the only way to carry it.
Something to think about.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
Yep. Almost everyone I know and almost all the opinions I've read here and there, have always preferred a lever gun without a manual safety. They all say the half-cock is more than good enough.
Not saying it's right, just saying that's what a lot of people tend to agree on.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
The idea of carrying a traditional sixgun fully loaded gives me the willies and I had to work at getting my ole pard to change his ways. Though if you're going to do it, resting the firing pin between chambers is probably the best option.
Although I must admit, statistically speaking, the crap people do while driving is probably many orders of magnitude more dangerous.
Still, loading one, skipping one, loading four, drawing the hammer back and lowering it on an empty chamber is so ingrained in my psyche that it'd be difficult for me to do anything else. Even with New Model Rugers.
Although I must admit, statistically speaking, the crap people do while driving is probably many orders of magnitude more dangerous.
Still, loading one, skipping one, loading four, drawing the hammer back and lowering it on an empty chamber is so ingrained in my psyche that it'd be difficult for me to do anything else. Even with New Model Rugers.
The Bushmaster
Member
I own a Colt SAA .357 Magnum and on ocasion, like 35 Whelen, I load all 6 chambers and place the hammer between cartridges (this is how it was done in the "old days"). I've owned this Colt sense 1966 and have never had a negligent discharge. Though I will warn others. NEVER trust the safety notch or the half cock position on a Colt SAA.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
I find it interesting that some folks mention lowering the hammer between the rims. I have tried this, and it does not work for me. Here are a couple of photos.
This first photo is of a 2nd Gen Colt chambered for 45 Colt. With this gun, the tip of the firing pin is slightly wider than the space between the rims. It may not be obvious from this photo but with the firing pin down between the rims it will be at the narrowest point between the two rims, because it will be centered on the same circle as the center of the primers. I do not have the numbers handy, but when I tried lowering the hammer on this gun between the rims, the firing pin did not drop down nicely between the rims. It rode up between them, and the cylinder could easily be rotated so that the firing pin could then be sitting directly over a primer. There was no positive locking of the firing pin between the rims.
I mentioned this on another forum and I got my head handed to me, I was told that with the older style firing pins, the pin would indeed drop down between the rims and lock the cylinder in place. One guy told me that the firing pin would break before the cylinder could rotate. So I tried again, this time with a 1st Generation Bisley. In addition, this gun is chambered for 44 Special, not 45 Colt, so the rims are of slightly smaller diameter, with slightly more space between them. Still no soap. The pin does not fit between the rims, it still sits up on the rims and there is no positive locking of the firing pin between the rims. With the firing pin between rims, it was very easy to rotate the cylinder. In fact if you look carefully you can see scratches on two adjacent rims where I did just that,
So I am intrigued by this bit about placing the firing pin between rims. Some report that it was done all the time 'in the old days'. I tend to doubt that.
For me, load one, skip one, load four more is the only way I load a non-transfer bar single action revolver.
P.S. Yes, with a 357 Mag, you can do it, but not with large calibers. At least my guns won't allow it.
I find it interesting that some folks mention lowering the hammer between the rims. I have tried this, and it does not work for me. Here are a couple of photos.
This first photo is of a 2nd Gen Colt chambered for 45 Colt. With this gun, the tip of the firing pin is slightly wider than the space between the rims. It may not be obvious from this photo but with the firing pin down between the rims it will be at the narrowest point between the two rims, because it will be centered on the same circle as the center of the primers. I do not have the numbers handy, but when I tried lowering the hammer on this gun between the rims, the firing pin did not drop down nicely between the rims. It rode up between them, and the cylinder could easily be rotated so that the firing pin could then be sitting directly over a primer. There was no positive locking of the firing pin between the rims.
I mentioned this on another forum and I got my head handed to me, I was told that with the older style firing pins, the pin would indeed drop down between the rims and lock the cylinder in place. One guy told me that the firing pin would break before the cylinder could rotate. So I tried again, this time with a 1st Generation Bisley. In addition, this gun is chambered for 44 Special, not 45 Colt, so the rims are of slightly smaller diameter, with slightly more space between them. Still no soap. The pin does not fit between the rims, it still sits up on the rims and there is no positive locking of the firing pin between the rims. With the firing pin between rims, it was very easy to rotate the cylinder. In fact if you look carefully you can see scratches on two adjacent rims where I did just that,
So I am intrigued by this bit about placing the firing pin between rims. Some report that it was done all the time 'in the old days'. I tend to doubt that.
For me, load one, skip one, load four more is the only way I load a non-transfer bar single action revolver.
P.S. Yes, with a 357 Mag, you can do it, but not with large calibers. At least my guns won't allow it.
35 Whelen
Member
Interesting stuff and thanks for the research. The handgun in question on my end is a Uberti .44 Special. My procedure is to load all six cylinders then rotating the cylinder to the point that it's slightly past the center of a primer. I then fully lower the hammer and rotate the cylinder until it stops. I've never tried to run the cylinder past this point as it always stopped smartly.
As I see it there are two factors other than rim diameter that could potentially affect lowering the firing pin between cartridges; the diameter of the tip of the firing pin and the diameter of the cylinder which of course affects the distance between the cartridge rims.
As far as it having been done "in the old days" it might just have been possible. I recall an article somewhere on the 45 Colt in which it was pointed out that the rims on the original cartridges were tiny...as in almost non-existent. In the article was illustrated a 100+ year old 45 Colt cartridge and indeed the rim was minuscule. Also, it was speculated that the tiny rim was the possible reason the 45 Colt was never chambered in a rifle as empty casings would have been near impossible to extract. Who knows?!?
35W
ETA- Found a picture of an old 45 cartridge and its tiny rim.
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Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
You are absolutely correct. Modern rims for the 45 Colt are much larger in diameter than the earlier ones were. And yes, that is one reason that rifles were never chambered for 45 Colt until fairly recently.
As luck would have it, I have a box of antique Benet primed folded rim 45 Colt cartridges. I will rerun the test with the antique rounds when I get a chance.
You are absolutely correct. Modern rims for the 45 Colt are much larger in diameter than the earlier ones were. And yes, that is one reason that rifles were never chambered for 45 Colt until fairly recently.
As luck would have it, I have a box of antique Benet primed folded rim 45 Colt cartridges. I will rerun the test with the antique rounds when I get a chance.
Moreno
Member
If I am at the range shooting, I will load six, shoot six, but if its going in the holster, its load 5 hammer down on the empty chamber. No Exceptions! I have been packing single sixes for 57 years with never an incident in the holster, however I know a feller who did not follow this sage advice who ended up with a bullet through his calf. It knocked a good chunk out of the main bone. He was a good long time in a cast. I was with him the day it happened, I hauled him to the hospital. Lesson learned the hard way.
On the single sixes I have that are larger than 22 cal. the cartridges are easily visible in the cylinder. You can see if there is a brass under the firing pin by simply looking at the gun from the side. Not a problem to put the empty under the hammer.
On the Ruger 22 single six, though it is a different story. brass is not visible form the side. I prefer to load 5 then advance the cyl just a little so I can see the empty coming into view, them back it up to align with the barrel and slowly drop the hammer down with out going into full cock. Now I have seen with my own eyes the empty is aligned with the barrel.
I do never pull a single six into full cock and drop the hammer when loading. Sorry gents, I don't buy that full cock thing for loading. What is the point if it can be done otherwise? Full cock is firing mode. We don't need that, we are loading.
Half cock, load 5, visually align the empty with the barrel, pull the hammer back enough to disengage the sear, (this will not rotate the cylinder) pull trigger and slowly lower the hammer.
On the single sixes I have that are larger than 22 cal. the cartridges are easily visible in the cylinder. You can see if there is a brass under the firing pin by simply looking at the gun from the side. Not a problem to put the empty under the hammer.
On the Ruger 22 single six, though it is a different story. brass is not visible form the side. I prefer to load 5 then advance the cyl just a little so I can see the empty coming into view, them back it up to align with the barrel and slowly drop the hammer down with out going into full cock. Now I have seen with my own eyes the empty is aligned with the barrel.
I do never pull a single six into full cock and drop the hammer when loading. Sorry gents, I don't buy that full cock thing for loading. What is the point if it can be done otherwise? Full cock is firing mode. We don't need that, we are loading.
Half cock, load 5, visually align the empty with the barrel, pull the hammer back enough to disengage the sear, (this will not rotate the cylinder) pull trigger and slowly lower the hammer.
35 Whelen
Member
I did try this with my .44 Special and with a little force the cylinder can be rotated to the next cartridge when the firing pin is resting between the rims. So with mine at least, it is definitely possible but when in the holster I'd say beyond unlikely.
Moreno, I'm just the opposite of you. When shooting on my range I load only five at a time mainly because I load in multiples of five and shoot groups in multiples of five. So, I'll let five go at the 50 yd. target, load five as I'm walking to the target, holster the pistol, paint the target, walk back to shoot the next group. Repeat.
I'm almost certain I have an extra used Uberti hammer in my guns parts. I'm tempted to install it and with a rubber mallet see just how durable the half-cock safety is. In an unloaded gun of course!
35W
Moreno, I'm just the opposite of you. When shooting on my range I load only five at a time mainly because I load in multiples of five and shoot groups in multiples of five. So, I'll let five go at the 50 yd. target, load five as I'm walking to the target, holster the pistol, paint the target, walk back to shoot the next group. Repeat.
I'm almost certain I have an extra used Uberti hammer in my guns parts. I'm tempted to install it and with a rubber mallet see just how durable the half-cock safety is. In an unloaded gun of course!
35W
dbmjr1
Member
The Uberti does indeed have a safety that allows for six rounds to be safely carried. Let's call it quarter cocked. It's not a transfer bar, but a block that's mounted on the hammer itself that allows the hammer to be held slightly back safely.
You can see it in the bottom photo.
Please excuse the poor cell phone pics.
You can see it in the bottom photo.
Please excuse the poor cell phone pics.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
That hammer block on the Uberti hammers is sometimes called the D Block. I dunno why, but that is what it is called. Uberti no longer supplies that type of hammer block on their guns, they went over to the '2 groove center pin' quite a while ago.
I used to have an Uberti with the D Block but I no longer have it. I have a newer Uberti (Cimarron Cattleman) that came with the 2 groove center pin. I bought it used a bunch of years ago. The first thing I did was replace the center pin with one from Belt Mountain. I don't like those pins, I just remember to only load 5 and keep the hammer down on the empty chamber.
A word of warning regarding the D Block hammer. I have read that the D Bock hammers were not hardened and the hammer cam tends to wear out quickly. I did not own my Cattleman with the D Block hammer long enough to find out for sure, I got rid of it for other reasons. Still, a worn hammer cam will eventually cause the gun to have problems, so be aware.
That hammer block on the Uberti hammers is sometimes called the D Block. I dunno why, but that is what it is called. Uberti no longer supplies that type of hammer block on their guns, they went over to the '2 groove center pin' quite a while ago.
I used to have an Uberti with the D Block but I no longer have it. I have a newer Uberti (Cimarron Cattleman) that came with the 2 groove center pin. I bought it used a bunch of years ago. The first thing I did was replace the center pin with one from Belt Mountain. I don't like those pins, I just remember to only load 5 and keep the hammer down on the empty chamber.
A word of warning regarding the D Block hammer. I have read that the D Bock hammers were not hardened and the hammer cam tends to wear out quickly. I did not own my Cattleman with the D Block hammer long enough to find out for sure, I got rid of it for other reasons. Still, a worn hammer cam will eventually cause the gun to have problems, so be aware.
35 Whelen
Member
I did not know the hammer safety was discontinued. I bought my wife a pair of consecutive numbered brand new Uberti Hombre's in August or Sept '12 and they both have the little pivoting block. I have a brand new Uberti OM that also has it, but I don't know how old the pistol is.
35W
35W
Moreno
Member
My Colt SAA is of 1957 vintage in 44 spl caliber. Like you 35 Whelen, the brass is too close together to let the pin down full between them. Though it does seem to hold the cylinder, it is possible to turn it with a little force. I doubt this would ever happen though with the piece in a holster. I have never carried this way. Prefer 5 and hammer down on the empty. In the ol' days the Colt was likely carried as a daily self defense weapon. These days i doubt many of us carry a SAA for self defense? At least for myself an XD 45 makes more sense these days.
dbmjr1
Member
The Uberti El Patron, in .357, that I took the pictures of was purchased new around June of 2013. It is recent production.
As a note. I don't carry it. I do, however, keep it loaded as I do all of my firearms. I load it with five cartridges, not six and store the hammer all the way down on an empty chamber as described above. I do this with all of my single actions, (except my NAA's), as it's just a good habit to be in when you have several different types and are subject to 'brain farts', as I am.
That's why I keep all of my firearms loaded. That way I'll never assume one is not loaded. They all get stored in a locked safe, if not on my person.
Better safe than sorry.
As a note. I don't carry it. I do, however, keep it loaded as I do all of my firearms. I load it with five cartridges, not six and store the hammer all the way down on an empty chamber as described above. I do this with all of my single actions, (except my NAA's), as it's just a good habit to be in when you have several different types and are subject to 'brain farts', as I am.
That's why I keep all of my firearms loaded. That way I'll never assume one is not loaded. They all get stored in a locked safe, if not on my person.
Better safe than sorry.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
OK, I may be wrong about whether or not the D Cam style hammer block is still being produced. I have been known to make a mistake every once in a while. Sorry about that.
Have not bought an Uberti revolver in a long time. The one I had with the D Cam hammer block I bought used about ten years ago. Sold it within a year, the front sight was canted to one side, and it had the worst trigger pull of any revolver I have ever owned. The one I still have came with the 2 groove center pin that I replaced with a Belt Mountain pin.
As an aside, most modern Westerns produced in Hollywood these days usually have guns in them supplied by firearms rental companies. Unlike the old days, when most of the guns in the movies were original 1st Gen Colts and real Winchester Model 1892s, today most of the guns you see are replicas. If you watch closely enough (yes it helps to be anal retentive) you can sometimes see the D Cam on the hammer when a 'Colt' is cocked.
Have not bought an Uberti revolver in a long time. The one I had with the D Cam hammer block I bought used about ten years ago. Sold it within a year, the front sight was canted to one side, and it had the worst trigger pull of any revolver I have ever owned. The one I still have came with the 2 groove center pin that I replaced with a Belt Mountain pin.
As an aside, most modern Westerns produced in Hollywood these days usually have guns in them supplied by firearms rental companies. Unlike the old days, when most of the guns in the movies were original 1st Gen Colts and real Winchester Model 1892s, today most of the guns you see are replicas. If you watch closely enough (yes it helps to be anal retentive) you can sometimes see the D Cam on the hammer when a 'Colt' is cocked.
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35 Whelen
Member
DJ I wasn't refuting your statement that the D Cam style safety was still being used or not. I thought maybe it had been discontinued rather recently. It is a little odd because a few weeks after I bought the aforementioned Hombre's (with the D Cam block), I ordered a brand new Uberti/Cimarron Model P directly from Cimarron and it did NOT have the D Cam.
35W
35W
Until you inspect his new purchase tell him to carry it with the hammer down on an empty cyllinder. I have some that I carry full and some with an empty chamber it just will depend on the individual firearm.
My daily carry guns are hundred year old Ivar Johnson and H & R in 38 SW. Both are topbreaks one hammerless the other with a hammer. With the hammer gun there is plenty of room for the fireing pin to rest between cartridges.
My daily carry guns are hundred year old Ivar Johnson and H & R in 38 SW. Both are topbreaks one hammerless the other with a hammer. With the hammer gun there is plenty of room for the fireing pin to rest between cartridges.
The Bushmaster
Member
A note of worth on the Winchester mod 94. The hammer safety position is good as long as you lower the hammer to the fired position then bring it back to the safety knotch. If brought down from full cock to the safety knotch the sear [sometimes] may not fully engage into the the hammer safety knotch. Don't forget that the Mod 94 also has a trigger block.
On the Colt. The hammer safety position (or as one called it "quarter cock") is NOT to be trusted. The trigger can be pulled from this position and it WILL set of the round. The clockworks of the Colt SAA is just too delicate. I don't know about the Uberti safety mentioned in #40 by dbmjr1.
On the Colt. The hammer safety position (or as one called it "quarter cock") is NOT to be trusted. The trigger can be pulled from this position and it WILL set of the round. The clockworks of the Colt SAA is just too delicate. I don't know about the Uberti safety mentioned in #40 by dbmjr1.
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