Mosin Nagant back bored barrel

starnbar

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Ok my son bought a Mosin 1935 vintage last week all matching numbers except the bayonet but the barrel has been back bored. I have not had any dealings with this process except what I read on the net is this a common practice on some prewar rifles almost 100 years old and how is accuracy after this modification?
 
The Germans did tests late in WW1 with counterboring Mausers with bad crowns/damage and found counterboring was a very good way to restore the crown, accuracy and protect it as well. They sort of "Rediscovered" that at the end of WW2.
It seems the Russians took to the practice post WW2 when they refurbished and stored their Mosins. Every rifle was brought back into repair and accuracy standards, then stored for later use.

Im a big time Mosin fan, and its a very good rifle.
 
It is not a safety issue. Worn muzzles due to rubbing with steel cleaning rods is very common with older military rifles. Instead of rebarreling, which was expensive, counter boring was cheap, gave the rifle a little more time till it needed to be rebuilt, and things like this were done in times when "get it out the door" was the highest priority.

Incidentally, your rifle was not, nor was it ever intended to be a target rifle. Nor where the men to whom it was issued to, trained to any standard of marksmanship. There simply was not time. American's absolutely forget the attrition of men during a major war. Around 1943 American was experiencing 60,000 causalities a month. That translates to 20,000 dead and 40,000 in various states of disassembly. The Russians had it worse, this was to show how effective the German advance was.

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Recently read this article:

Ukrainian commander reveals true scale of losses – and pays the price


17 Mar 2023 The Telegraph

Battalion commander says all 500 of the original soldiers in his unit have been either killed or injured as he calls for better training

Kupol told the Washington Post this week that the Ukrainian army training was often poor and that some of the rookie replacements didn’t know how to throw a hand grenade or fire a rifle. Others had abandoned their positions shortly after arriving at the front line, he said

“I get 100 new soldiers,” he said. “They don’t give me any time to prepare them. They say, ‘Take them into the battle.’ They just drop everything and run. That’s it. Do you understand why? Because the soldier doesn’t shoot. I ask him why, and he says, ‘I’m afraid of the sound of the shot.’ And for some reason, he has never thrown a grenade. …Kupol said what was left of his unit was also facing ammunition shortages. “You’re on the front line,” he said. “They’re coming toward you, and there’s nothing to shoot with.

Men are arriving at the front not knowing how to shoot their weapons, or knowing how to use other weapons. And this is not the first time this has happened. It happens in every major war, including the American experience during WW2, These manpower shortages start around year two, because by then the pre war Regular Army guys are dead, and there is not time to adequately train the replacements. Or shall I say, cannon fodder.

So, in an environment like this, there is no expectation that the newly arrived cannon fodder are going to be able to hit anything, at any distance, so issuing rifles with counter bored barrels was fine, as long as it went bang.

Now for you, you have a historical piece, it should go bang, even when new it was maybe a three to four MOA thing, and that was good enough for an issue rifle. If you want a target barrel, you can pay hundreds to have a gunsmith contour a barrel blank and fit the sights, and the rifle will shoot better. It won't be competitive against real target rifles, but it will produce round groups and be more accurate than the typical issue rifle. I would not spend the money trying to find a used Mosin Nagant barrel and have that installed. Military rifle barrels vary so much in quality, you could spend $500 total, and find the new barrel is a stinker.
 
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It is not a safety issue. Worn muzzles due to rubbing with steel cleaning rods is very common with older military rifles. Instead of rebarreling, which was expensive, counter boring was cheap, gave the rifle a little more time till it needed to be rebuilt, and things like this were done in times when "get it out the door" was the highest priority.

Incidentally, your rifle was not, nor was it ever intended to be a target rifle. Nor where the men to whom it was issued to, trained to any standard of marksmanship. There simply was not time. American's absolutely forget the attrition of men during a major war. Around 1943 American was experiencing 60,000 causalities a month. That translates to 20,000 dead and 40,000 in various states of disassembly. The Russians had it worse, this was to show how effective the German advance was.

View attachment 1141965
Recently read this article:

Ukrainian commander reveals true scale of losses – and pays the price


17 Mar 2023 The Telegraph

Battalion commander says all 500 of the original soldiers in his unit have been either killed or injured as he calls for better training

Kupol told the Washington Post this week that the Ukrainian army training was often poor and that some of the rookie replacements didn’t know how to throw a hand grenade or fire a rifle. Others had abandoned their positions shortly after arriving at the front line, he said

“I get 100 new soldiers,” he said. “They don’t give me any time to prepare them. They say, ‘Take them into the battle.’ They just drop everything and run. That’s it. Do you understand why? Because the soldier doesn’t shoot. I ask him why, and he says, ‘I’m afraid of the sound of the shot.’ And for some reason, he has never thrown a grenade. …Kupol said what was left of his unit was also facing ammunition shortages. “You’re on the front line,” he said. “They’re coming toward you, and there’s nothing to shoot with.

Men are arriving at the front not knowing how to shoot their weapons, or knowing how to use other weapons. And this is not the first time this has happened. It happens in every major war, including the American experience during WW2, These manpower shortages start around year two, because by then the pre war Regular Army guys are dead, and there is not time to adequately train the replacements. Or shall I say, cannon fodder.

So, in an environment like this, there is no expectation that the newly arrived cannon fodder are going to be able to hit anything, at any distance, so issuing rifles with counter bored barrels was fine, as long as it went bang.

Now for you, you have a historical piece, it should go bang, even when new it was maybe a three to four MOA thing, and that was good enough for an issue rifle. If you want a target barrel, you can pay hundreds to have a gunsmith contour a barrel blank and fit the sights, and the rifle will shoot better. It won't be competitive against real target rifles, but it will produce round groups and be more accurate than the typical issue rifle. I would not spend the money trying to find a used Mosin Nagant barrel and have that installed. Military rifle barrels vary so much in quality, you could spend $500 total, and find the new barrel is a stinker.
And treating individual soldiers as expendable in battle is a long-held strategy in Russian warfare. We have seen it from early inter-country Tsarist conflicts all the way to this past week in Ukraine. Partially from a lack of equipment, partially from poor logistics, the two steady constants Russia has is masses of poor people to fight and the vast distances the enemy has to cover when the weather allows.

We have all read the accounts of their mass attacks, where the troops in the fore are armed with rifles and waves behind aren’t. According to lore, these guys were expected to pick up the rifles of the fallen that were in battle before them and continue the push. I obviously wasn’t there so I can’t say first hand that is how it was done, but seeing how they fight even today it makes sense that this was an acceptable tactic

I wonder how many mil-surp Mosin Nagants over here were a part of such a crazy style of warfare. :eek:

Stay safe.
 
It is a very common practice. They usually shoot as well as non-cb ones. If yours is throwing bananas instead of spirals, you can "re crown the counter bore." Try a tight patch with a little polishing compound at the muzzle end of the rifling first. If this doesn't get things stable, a close fitting brass rod radiused roughly 15 degrees and a small slot to hold compound, worked with a drill at the start of the counter bore, then lapped with a patch might fix.
 
My counterbored 1942 M 38 shoots about as well as my full bored M-91. The 42 probably saw a bit more action and the machining is a lot rougher than 44 when victory was a matter of when, not if.

I find the bigger problem with accuracy is the sights. I’m sure both can shoot better than I can consistently line up the square sights. But, the fun of them is being old battle rifles. If I want so shoot with a scope, a new Savage is cheaper and easier.

Russuan tactics haven’t really ever revolved around the skilled rifleman. They make decent rifles, but as Ukraine has showed, they could give infantry purple pool noodles and get a similar effect. The rifle makes Ivan Ivanov think he has something to do other than make the other side shoot him and thus give up their position for Russian artillery to destroy them. It’s not a comforting strategy, but works if you have an unlimited supply of conscripts and criminals.
 
the finn,s took the russian 91,s and rebuilt them into their model 39,s that are very accurett rifles. i have a 1942 rebuilt with a new barrel and sights with a new stock that is just as accurett as any of my mausers and springfields.
 
how is accuracy after this modification
It should be as good as any other mosin-nagant rifle. The Russians rearsenaled darned near all of there inventory of guns after WW2 and put them in storage anticipating the next big conflict. Repaired guns would been inspected to confirm they were functional and met standards. From what I have read and personal experience with ones I have used, I would expect results with modern ammunition to be 2 to 4 moa. If it does better that's great, but this is realistic regardless if the barrel was backbored or not. Best thing to do is give it a thorough cleaning and go shoot it.

I wonder how many mil-surp Mosin Nagants over here were a part of such a crazy style of warfare
I would suggest most all Russian surplus guns made prior to 1945 were likely used in combat at some point. They were in desperate need of weapons so everything and anything would have been sent to the front lines.
 
Last month, June 2023, bought a "sporterized" 91/30, stamped "1936", with a barrel lopped off at 22". I say "lopped-off" because the job was Crude -- crude with a capital "C", crude ... terrible. No counter-bore. No effort was made to crown it properly. For a front sight, somebody had put on a standard ramp bead -- hate that. I scored the front sight figuring that I'd have to drive it to get proper windage. Took my brass punches w/me to the range. Just after I got the thing, I polished the chamber. I've encountered the "sticky-bolt" problem in more than one of these, so I just went ahead and did it. Be done with it. The bore is well used, but the rifling is still true, lands shiny-ish, with cruddy groves.

Why did I buy this clunker? I got it for $150, I could see rifling, and it hadn't a pitted chamber.

At the range, I put my target it out at 50 yards. My first concern was helping a grandson learning marksmanship with a .22. I figured this Nagant was going to be a rock thrower, but was hoping for better. I've had bifocals for over 20 years and here I am using open sights (Hail Marys and all that). Not gonna put any scope on this puppy.

Gasp! I shot a half-inch group at 50 yards. This with Winchester white box FMJs. Russian steel cased ammo didn't do half bad. Tula ammo didn't do half bad either. I didn't take the time to go OCD on this rifle -- again, was at the range for the kid, not me. Off-hand, standing, using a sling, I shot some rocks and limbs lying a bit down on the berm out at 200 yards. Dug up dirt like a M80 firework.

One day, I might just get serious about this rifle and keep records of its performance and ammo favorings. Not top priority, though. I already know that this little beastie is a useful truck gun / knock-about. Don't have to worry about dinging it ! It's already been beat to crap.

Lesson: Sometimes one's anticipations are way off the mark. A fine/expensive rifle can turn out disappointing and a base/crude rifle can be a performer. Scientists say that dark matter pervades our universe. Me, I know that dark humor pervades our universe.
 
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