Most authentic SAA clone?

[Magnumite]

35Whelen, thank you for the reply.

 

[CraigC]

USFA's have the conical firing pin.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Thanks so much all, I've read all of the replies.

So would the Cimarron Model P be a good one to go with? Also, I am not sure which barrel length. I want to get an open carry classic (but not Hollywood) rig to carry the gun around in at the range and when hiking and stuff. I don't think I'll choose the 7 1/2 barrel, just too long for my purposes.

Which ones should I get? The 4 3/4" barrel or the 5 1/2"? I'm looking for an all around shooter than I can carry on my person in a holster and maybe as a nightstand gun for home defense too.

If the Cimarron Model P really is as close as I'm going to get, I'll be looking one up.

 

[35 Whelen]

Thanks so much all, I've read all of the replies.

So would the Cimarron Model P be a good one to go with? Also, I am not sure which barrel length. I want to get an open carry classic (but not Hollywood) rig to carry the gun around in at the range and when hiking and stuff. I don't think I'll choose the 7 1/2 barrel, just too long for my purposes.

Which ones should I get? The 4 3/4" barrel or the 5 1/2"? I'm looking for an all around shooter than I can carry on my person in a holster and maybe as a nightstand gun for home defense too.

If the Cimarron Model P really is as close as I'm going to get, I'll be looking one up.

Completely personal prefernce. I have both 4 3/4" and 5 1/2" and have no preference for one over the other. For pharting around casual shooting I'd lean towards the shorter barrel.
If at all possible you ought to handle both and base your decision on what feels best to you.

35W

 

[Panzerschwein]

Thanks! Does anyone know when each barrel length was released by Colt? I know the 7 1/2" was first, but what about the 4 3/4" and 5 1/2"? Would it be anachronistic to have a black powder frame 5 1/2"?

 

[BCRider]

As I understand it various folks were getting the 7 1/2's cut down to the shorter lengths by local smiths well before Colt offered those lengths as a factory model. So I'd say that if it floats your boat then go ahead.

When I got my cowboy action pair it started with a 4 3/4" Pietta for a price I couldn't pass up. But even then I preferred the longer 5 1/2". But hey, money, or lack of it in this case, talks! But it proved to be great gun and I bought a second Pietta but with the 5 1/2" barrel. I'd say that when used back to back the shorter barrel DOES clear leather that trifle easier. But really if you don't pull them from leather back to back there's not a whole lot of difference.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

As I said before, the original barrel length of the SAA was 7 1/2". By the 1890s, a lot of these early guns were showing considerable wear. In 1895-1896 the Army sent some back to Colt for refurbishing. At this time most of the refurbished revolvers had their barrels cut down to 5 1/2". Some were also sent to the Springfield Armory in 1898, where many of them received the same treatment. Subsequently, some of these 5 1/2" barreled Colts were issued to Artillery units, and so the 5 1/2" barreled Colts took on the unofficial designation of Artillery Model. This was never an official model name, just an unofficial name.

Cannot tell you much about when the 4 3/4" barrel was first brought out. I can tell you that 7 1/2", 5 1/2" and 4 3/4" were the three standard barrel lengths for both 1st and 2nd Generation Colts. You could order almost any barrel length you wanted, but those were the three standard lengths. The most common barrel length was 5 1/2".

Personally, I have always found the 5 1/2" barrel length to be boring. I prefer the elegance of a 7 1/2" barrel or the brutish appearance of a 4 3/4" barrel.

Here are my two 2nd Gen Colts, one each of my favorite barrel lengths. For what its worth, the 4 3/4" one is slightly more accurate than the long barreled one.





Regarding your question about being anachronistic, Kuhnhausen states that the modern transverse spring loaded cylinder pin latch was first introduced on some target models in 1892, and became standard by 1896. So strictly speaking, after 1896 you would not have found a SAA with the Black Powder frame type of cylinder pin latch. However, since all of those cut down Army Colts were made with the Black Powder frame, when they were cut down to 5 1/2" and reissued I would assume they still had the angled screw holding the cylinder pin in place. Just an assumption mind you, I have not personally inspected any cut down military Colts with Black Powder frames.

Of course, you can always make up what ever fiction you want to justify what ever model you choose.

 

[Panzerschwein]

So very nice driftwood!!

I LOVE(!!!) the looks of the 7 1/2" barrel, looks so classic. But I'm afraid that's a big size for me. I'm 5' 7" so not that tall.

Maybe the 5 1/2" would be best for me?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

For what it's worth, yes it can be difficult drawing a 7 1/2" barreled revolver from a strongside holster without getting you elbow tangled in your armpit. Particularly with a high ride holster.

My 7 1/2" Colt lives in a standard strongside Duke style holster mounted backwards on my left side. That way I can reach across my chest to draw it without getting tangled up. My 4 3/4" Colt lives on the right in a similar holster.



What works for you will depend on what sort of holster you use.

 

[35 Whelen]

I agree with Driftwood that the 5 1/2" barrels don't seem to have as much character. I don't know when the 4 3/4" became available, but my uncle has a 1901 Bisley that has the shorter barrel, FWIW.

35W

 

[Panzerschwein]

As to the Cimarron Model P, I've heard that Cimarron branded guns are a notch above standard Uberti products. Is there any truth to this?

Also, does anyone else know if the 5 1/2" barrel came out when the black powder frames were being made? I am starting to lean toward that barrel length personally... I've always liked the look, and prefer a more muzzle heavy feel in my pistols. I shouldn't be too hard to carry in a good belt holster either.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I'll have to look up exactly when it was made, but IIRC this 38-40 Bisley was made around 1907.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Also, does anyone else know if the 5 1/2" barrel came out when the black powder frames were being made?

I opened up my copy of Kopec's book and found a photo of a lovely factory engraved, nickel plated SAA with a 5 1/2" barrel and the Black Powder frame that shipped on June 28, 1888. This was a custom order, it does not reflect when Colt started offering the 5 1/2" barrel length as standard. But it is evidence of a 5 1/2" gun built on the BP frame. As I said earlier, you could custom order just about any configuration you wanted, as long as you were willing to pay for it.

Regarding Cimarron, that is the myth that has circulated for years. It is not true. Cimarron guns are not any better than any other importer's guns. They all come off the same production line. Some may get stamped with special markings, some importers may order specific features that other importers don't order, but when you open them up and check the internals, they are pretty much all the same. They all have the same amount of burrs and rough finished parts inside. Trust me on this.

As a matter of fact, that revolver that I think I mentioned earlier with the Charcoal Blue finish was a Cimarron. And it was a real dog! Worst trigger pull of any Colt replica I have ever seen. And the barrel was not screwed in properly so that the front sight leaned decidedly in one direction. Granted, it was probably an unusual example, but it was a real dog and I eventually got rid or it.

They all come off the same assembly line. If they were getting special treatment or tuning, you would be paying more.

If you want my very biased opinion, look at Taylors if you want to buy an Uberti. My own experience with Taylors has been terrific, their customer service is second to none.

http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/

 

[35 Whelen]

A little research nets some interesting and intriguing information.

A cursory search on Proxibid turned up a few older ones with shorter barrels:

1908 Mfg.- 4 3/4"

1889 Mfg.- 5 1/2"

1898 Mfg.- 5 1/2"

1898 Mfg.- 4 3/4"

1894 Mfg. 4 3/4"

ETA- A BEAUTIFUL 1881 Mfg.- 4 3/4" engraved 45 Colt.

Maybe that will give you some idea.

35W

 

[BobWright]

If its been said before, I missed it, but one thing all imports have that is non-historic for civilian models is the one-piece walnut grips. All commercial Colt SAAs had the black hard rubber grips.

A Uberti or Pietta will need to have a grip locating pin installed in the trigger guard for fit the new black plastic grips to make you gun look authentic.

Bob Wright

 

[X-Rap]

Actually some were shipped without grips at all. I ordered a factory letter on a 1st gen for my dad that was sent to a Ft Worth Hardware Co. and it specifies no grips.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

That Bisley of mine is wearing its original black, hard rubber grips.

I love the old black, hard rubber grips.


New Service





Army Special





Police Positive Special





Police Positive 32





Smith and Wesson New Model #3 and Merwin Hulbert Pocket Army.

 

[Jim K]

Bob Wright wrote: "All commercial Colt SAAs had the black hard rubber grips."

Bob, I have seen, and seen pictures of, commercial SAA's with one piece wood grips (I wish I had one), so I don't think that is correct. It is true that ALL SAA's sold to the army had the one piece wood grips, but Colt did put them on commercial guns as well. (And Colt would also use grips of other materials on special order.)

One small point, FWIW. The repro "black powder frame" guns usually have the base pin screw fitting into the normal circular ring cut in the base pin. The original base pins have a recessed flat spot just for the screw, and the pin has to be installed with that in the right position or the screw won't engage properly.

Jim

 

[BobWright]

Jim K:

Bob, I have seen, and seen pictures of, commercial SAA's with one piece wood grips (I wish I had one), so I don't think that is correct. It is true that ALL SAA's sold to the army had the one piece wood grips, but Colt did put them on commercial guns as well. (And Colt would also use grips of other materials on special order.)

There have been very few that were special ordered with such. As always, a letter from Colt to verify that the gun was indeed ordered with special grips.

From further searching, I find that the .44-40 Frontier Six Shooter was usually furnished with wood grips. Also those before 1880 had wood grips. After that time, they were special order. And, on special order and extra cost, ivory, pearl (mother of pearl) and stag were available.


And further: I was advised over on the Colt Forum to look at the front strap (trigger guard) with the grip removed. If there is a hole for the locating pin, the gun originally had two-piece grips. If absent, then it originally had one-piece grips.

Bob Wright

 

[Jim K]

Correct. One-piece grips can't use a locating pin and don't need one as they are fitted to the grip straps. The only way one-piece grips can be installed or removed is to disassemble the grip frame. There have been "one piece" grips built up by gluing the side panels to an internal block (sort of a sandwich) but AFAIK Colt didn't make any that way; they were either one piece wood or two grip panels with a locating pin and a screw.

(That is if the gun was intended for the grips that turned up on it. Colt being Colt, I can easily see an assembler needing to install a solid wood grip using a strap already drilled for the pin but without the pin installed. What would be the difference to him?)

Jim

 

[shootniron]

Get a ruger, they are better...

Ruger isn't better...since you don't know this...it is a DIFFERENT gun...it is not a SAA type gun.

 

[bannockburn]

Some day I will get a SAA with a 4 3/4" barrel. For now I'm quite content with the barrel lengths on my Beretta Stampede and my EMF Hartford U.S. Cavalry Model.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

Thanks guys!

I'm getting several Uberti recommendations. Do all the Ubertis come with hammer block safeties? I hope not. I also know about the longer base pin Uberti uses, and I plan to cut mine down to restore the original look and function of the gun.

Again, I'm going for max historical accuracy. I'm not a cowboy action person, which I'm sure is what 99% of people buying these are using them for, but I'm very interested in 19th century firearms history (the real history, not the Hollywood bastardization) and I'm long over due for a SAA.

I shoot NCOWS which is the most PC of CAS and like my gear to be historically accurate.

I prefer the Cimarron model P with the black powder frame of the Uberti made revolvers.

It does not have the hammer safety in it and does not have the cross pin retaining the main pin.

It is made like the earlier SAA.

Also to add all cowboy action is not the hollywood bastardization. You say you like the historical accuracy so if you have any interest at all in CAS you should look into NCOWS. There is a good group of people with a posse in Kansas.

 

[Sarge7402]

Cod

I bought a Uberti some years back in 38-40 and really wanted a .41 Colt. Had the original parts and they fitted in with very little fitting. And I too have a few colt original parts in a shoe box

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

The Beretta Stampede is not a SAA type gun either. It has a transfer bar like a Ruger.